I have a bit of experience dealing with french unions, the union leaders have too many privileges and if you want to lessen the power of the unions you have to aim at these. I would not be surprised if Macron does actually go in this direction.
French Elections 2017
- Thread starter Cheesy
- Start date
I have a bit of experience dealing with french unions, the union leaders have too many privileges and if you want to lessen the power of the unions you have to aim at these. I would not be surprised if Macron does actually go in this direction.
I'm not entirely sure that I understand the bolded part. Do you mean British people who question those French who voted for Le Pen's economic policy, that they (the British) are hypocritical?
Not to forget the Macron still needs to win the Legislative elections in June. If not for that, he can become a puppet president.
Yes sorry was it a bit unclear.
It's all about money, they have been given the power to handle a lot of money, for example adult professional formation. Macron intends to take that away from them because they are doing a poor job and he wants to allow workers to manage their own right with the help of the Pole emploi(employment administration).
You can imagine that Unions aren't happy and we knew that they would be on the street quickly.
There's a lot of hypocrisy going on across the world I guess.
Some days back we've been invited to a private party, met a couple about our age and had some small talk. Needless to say that we were soon joking about Twitler deplorables who are so poorly educated they believe Breitbart, Infowars and Foxnews (sorry Americans).
Minutes later it turns out they are entirely convinced of almost any tinfoil hat conspiracy that's making the rounds in Germany spread by AfD or PEGIDA. No joke.
Observation of today: British and American news channel are obsessed pointing out that Macron is / will be the youngest French leader since Napoleon. They stress the Napoleon qualifier every five minutes.
It's not even the proper Napoleon is it?Observation of today: British and American news channel are obsessed pointing out that Macron is / will be the youngest French leader since Napoleon. They stress the Napoleon qualifier every five minutes.
By the way, what's the general reaction in England?Observation of today: British and American news channel are obsessed pointing out that Macron is / will be the youngest French leader since Napoleon. They stress the Napoleon qualifier every five minutes.
I still do have to deal with our union from time to time....But we're only a small company and half of the staff don't live in France, anyway...
For the most part, our current DDPs are good, sensible, honest prefessionals, although we have had our share of pig-headed, obstinate, jumped-up little sh*ts in the past who one way and another we finally managed to get through the door.
I dread to think what it must be like for HR negotiators in companies like EDF or RATP -as FCB says, way too many UK companies in the 70s and 80s eventually went down the tubes because the unions made it just too difficult for them to modernise / change with the times.
But will Macron change or be able to change anything ?
Not much, I don't think. He's already tried and failed when he was working for Hollande. And change, it seems, just doesn't exist here, although having said that, is one of the reasons why we enjoy it so much living here - it's like living in a time warp for reasonably comfortable professionals like ourselves.
France has a wonderful standard of living, good wages and very little employer exploitation of its workers. Now imagine for a moment that you're a normal working person and not a rich business owner. Why exactly would you want to weaken the power of the unions that guarantee you a wonderful standard of living, good wages and very little employer exploitation?
We're constantly hearing about the French failings and weaknesses and for at least 2 decades I've been hearing people talk as if France is on the brink of economic collapse, and yet France goes on like it always does.
Despite living here, I haven't been following the campaigns closely because there's so much going on in the UK and US right now, so I can't comment on Macron's proposals. What I will say however is that 'compromise' when it comes to workers rights in the UK and US have comprised nothing more than the surrendering of said rights and the transferal of wealth to corporations and the super rich. Why should any worker give a damn about the growth % in their country, when an undue amount of that growth is being funneled into profits or comes at the expense of the worker? If you suddenly made every worker in the country work an extra 2 hours for free, then you'd see a rise in economic growth, but it wouldn't do anything worthwhile for society. Maybe you'd create some extra jobs where people are being paid very little with no job security. Yay..
Macron is the youngest French president since Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte resumed power in 1848. I leave it to the French who know best but would say he's not the 'real' thing.
Bullshit. They keep the standard of living for a select minority, while actually prohibiting investments and new jobs in France. For all of those who fight to keep their specific standard of living, others lose their jobs. And yes, 2 more hours of work wont make a impact on your wage bill. But it might help you actually keeping your job. Tell me, why would any foreign investor, right now, chose France above Germany or Poland? Where the workforce is equally, or even more skilled, but you get far more value for any buck you pay? While in Germany, you even pay those people more than you would pay them in France but it STILL makes economical sense for you?
This isn't about compromising workers rights. This is about being sensible.
For example, in 2009, our local (world leading) car lighting manufacturer was obviously hit hard by the economic crisis. So they went to the unions and said, guys, we can't keep our work force as it is. We don't make enough money as of now. The unions could have protested and they would have lost, probably damaging the company even further in the process, making even more job loss likely.
But they company said: look, we don't want to do this. Do you have a proposal? And so unions and the company worked together and devised a plan where parts of the work force, in something like a 3 month shift system, were put either on part time or even put off work completely for half the money. This was to be revised after a year and put out of action if the company would have recovered. It didn't within that year, but after a revised, 12 months plan the year after that. Everything went back to normal, nobody lost their jobs. In exchange for that, the company signed a contract ensuring the employment of the plants workforce for the next 5 years.
That's how you do things. That's how you help the people you stand for as a union and how you help the economy and your company just as much. Everybody does their part in ensuring the company survives and everybody keeps their job.
Last edited:
Being German, living in Germany I can't speak for England, just for what I heard and watched BBC, Sky News, and CNN (working from home today and switched channels in the background).
My take:
BBC is more reporting than commenting.
Sky News are working their socks off to boost Le Pen's win and to point out how difficult it'll be for Macron to do anything.
CNN (American, not English, I know) somewhere in between but absolutely fascinated by his relationship with a woman 24 years older than him. Almost more coverage time for that than for his career or policies.
Macron is the youngest French president since Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte resumed power in 1848. I leave it to the French who know best but would say he's not the 'real' thing.
If people are talking about leader in a french republic than it's Napoleon Bonaparte during the consulate. Otherwise it is indeed Napoleon III.
France has a wonderful standard of living, good wages and very little employer exploitation of its workers. Now imagine for a moment that you're a normal working person and not a rich business owner. Why exactly would you want to weaken the power of the unions that guarantee you a wonderful standard of living, good wages and very little employer exploitation?
Because if the unions would just ' give a little bit ' then there would probably be quite a few more of the currently unemployed who could enjoy the wonderful standard of living, good wages and very little employer exploitation of its workers.
Because if the unions would just ' give a little bit ' then there would probably be quite a few more of the currently unemployed who could enjoy the wonderful standard of living, good wages and very little employer exploitation of its workers.
I think (BBC, Sky News, CNN where I hear it all day) refer to president, at least that's my impression.
Last edited:
Oohh, its nice to know I'm part of a select minority, I feel super special now.
You're basically just trotting out the tired capitalist talking points now. Although bonus points that when I gave an extreme example that most people would have just laughed at, you actually took that on board and gave the corporatist answer. 2 hours extra unpaid work a day? Why that might help you save your job peasant! Why would you ever have an issue with such a thing?! Your CEO's new yacht isn't just going to buy itself you know, now get back to the coal face and let me hear no more whining about holidays, or health and safety or any of that communist nonsense!
Look, hyperbole aside, if the unions and the employers have a good working relationship based around trust, then yes situations like you describe are exactly how it should work. Unions and workers should not be intractable, they have to be realistic and consider the wider implications of the economy. Sometimes that is going to mean trimming back conditions, but if that's the case then when those companies are making huge profits then that needs to mean the workers see the benefits of that too. Unfortunately the advance of corporatism has mean that in bad times rights get cut back, and in good times they get cut again to ensure even higher profits. If you want to see good relations and a willingness to compromise then demand that from BOTH sides, not just from the working people whose only way of ensuring a fair representation is to group together in unions.
Oohh, its nice to know I'm part of a select minority, I feel super special now.
You're basically just trotting out the tired capitalist talking points now. Although bonus points that when I gave an extreme example that most people would have just laughed at, you actually took that on board and gave the corporatist answer. 2 hours extra unpaid work a day? Why that might help you save your job peasant! Why would you ever have an issue with such a thing?! Your CEO's new yacht isn't just going to buy itself you know, now get back to the coal face and let me hear no more whining about holidays, or health and safety or any of that communist nonsense!
Look, hyperbole aside, if the unions and the employers have a good working relationship based around trust, then yes situations like you describe are exactly how it should work. Unions and workers should not be intractable, they have to be realistic and consider the wider implications of the economy. Sometimes that is going to mean trimming back conditions, but if that's the case then when those companies are making huge profits then that needs to mean the workers see the benefits of that too. Unfortunately the advance of corporatism has mean that in bad times rights get cut back, and in good times they get cut again to ensure even higher profits. If you want to see good relations and a willingness to compromise then demand that from BOTH sides, not just from the working people whose only way of ensuring a fair representation is to group together in unions.
But as a matter of fact, the big french companies, especially in the car sector, don't make huge profits. They do not make any profits at all. Especially the cars manufactured in France have such a small margin of profit (if any at all) it keeps the company from investing in the future and has been fore decades. Which is exactly the reason Renault, Peugeot and Citroen have been declining for more than 20 years now. What kind of compromise do you want to see from them? Their only tool of survival, right now, is keeping the current workforce until it's in retirement and creating new jobs outside of France.
And also, no, those 2 hours of extra unpaid work aren't for the companies profit. Not completely. They are also there to ensure younger people, not yet in work, profit from new investment and new jobs coming in. As of now, that isn't the case and the manufacturing sector is shrinking every year. Why do other western countries, like Germany, like Poland, manage to keep or even expand it?
Don't disagree with what you say but when you get a more powerful union rep who is better off when there is a problem, industry will gradually disappear because it is in their personal interest to be inflexible and are not so interested in their fellow workers interests as they make out.
Macron without Hollande may be more successful in bringing in some reforms but it's too early to tell. It's not going to be easy and it will be a bumpy ride.
"and has been for decades".. Yeah, so for decades they've been selling cars and people have had jobs. What am I supposed to be sympathetic for here? That shareholders aren't becoming fabulously wealthy?
Oh give me a break, so workers should have huge extra burdens put on them because otherwise they're to blame for people not having employment opportunity? Horseshit.
I just want to say at this point, that there's an irony in me arguing with a German about this. I don't think France necessarily has the best system, I don't know Germany well enough to make a good comparison but from what I've heard you guys have very good worker protections and practises also along with absolutely fantastic economic productivity. My concern is not about France being turned into Germany, its about France being turned into the UK or US, countries where the rights of working people are being trampled into the mud under the guise of 'efficiency' and by claiming there's no other way to ensure economic growth. I will absolute refute that at every turn, when those same companies in the UK and US are experiencing massive levels of profit.
They have contiously lost market share worldwide. In a sector that has seen huge growth over the past 30 years, the French car industry has been left behind by not being able to invest into the emerging markets probably. Yes, they have been selling cars had people have had jobs. But they could have sold more cars, ensuring more people to have jobs.
And for the bold part: partly yes. It's an attitude I constantly see among older workers, especially left leaning ones: feck the youth as long as I keep my job exactly at the same conditions. After me, there may be the Flood. Not all that social to be honest.
And I'm not proposing going the US way. But in a globalized world, with an economy burdened by dept and lack of growth, still fighting for the 35 hour week for everyone while still wanting to keep retirement at 60 is a bit nonsensical.
@Kentonio
I don't mean to be provocative, I really don't, but I have some questions.
I don't mean to be provocative, I really don't, but I have some questions.
- Have you ever considered running your own company? If not: Why haven't you? Why do you think that it's somebody else's job to give you a job (or even a well-paid job)?
- I assume you're not a billionaire and have a limited budget for your living as most of us have, however big or small it is. What priority has the price of a product or service to you in the decision process?
- Are you entitled to the output of a financial product (directly or indirectly)? What priority has the interest rate, paid dividends or whatever said product entitles you to get from it to you?
Not everyone is fighting for 35 hours week and retirement isn't at 60 but 67. The minimum age is 62 but not at a full rate while 67 is at a full rate if you have all the trimesters.
Macron is the youngest French president since Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte resumed power in 1848. I leave it to the French who know best but would say he's not the 'real' thing.
He was officially the first president but in 1848 when he became president he was 40 years old.
Did you know that back in 2009 they actually ran some data on number of hours worked and GDP per capita to determine who were the most productive workers in the world? Guess who were actually top of that calculation for GDP/Capita/Hour? Yep, that would be the French. Not just for Europe, for the world. You can't just add extra working hours and expect automatic gains, the standards of working conditions France have provide great benefits.
As for retirement ages, no I'm damned if the blame for the retirement age should be put onto workers, when corporations are being allowed to siphon profits out of countries and into low tax havens. We're not living in a world where suddenly there is far less money to go around and so we desperately need to tighten our belts. We're living in a world where mindbogglingly vast wealth is being made, and that money is being directed more and more towards a small elite. Yes things like aging populations have an effect, but that effect is dwarfed by the quantities of money being created. The number of billionaires has almost TRIPLED since 2009, yet apparently we're supposed to believe that normal working people are dragging down the economy. Please..
Germany's papers wrote it day in day out. Shocked to learn that's fake news!(And obviously I was too lazy to check and am really bad at memorizing years of birth / death).
(And obviously I was too lazy to check and am really bad at memorizing years of birth / death).
Macron is the first president who is younger than me, more frightening he is also younger than my eldest daughter
Be as provocative as you like, I'm not a delicate snowflake.
1. Yes, and I fully intend to in the future. I've been unable to previously due to a complicated set of personal details that I'm not going to go into here, but it's a very concrete part of my future plans.
2. Not a simple question to answer really. Obviously price always has a major impact on decision making, but quality is also a major factor, and when it comes to services also more complex issues such as trustworthiness and reputation. I'm by no means rich, but if it comes down to a choice between paying a well run ethical company slightly more for the same service that I could get cheaper from a company that was known to be exploitative towards its staff, then I'd choose the former wherever possible.
3. I don't understand the question here, why would I be entitled to the output of a financial product unless I had some financial interest in it? Unless we're talking about 'entitled' in terms of being entitled to see that product fairly taxed by the government that represents my country to contribute towards the national interest (that in turn enables that product to be sold in the first place), in which case the answer would be yes.
Everyone is younger than you, NapaulianMacron is the first president who is younger than me, more frightening he is also younger than my eldest daughter
A bit of perspective, guys....
The main problems with the unions here are limited to the State owned ( and quasi State owned ) companies such as EDF, SNCF, PTT and, of course, Government Services such as Education. It feels as though every single day, at least someone is on strike, and quite often for what seem like purely political reasons or as protest against planned Government reforms in whichever particular State owned company or Public Sector.
Of course there are a few others, but usually restricted to the French subsidiaries of multinationals.
And the Government always, ALWAYS, caves in.
Common link ? None of those are likely to shut down because of the financial consequences of the strike.
My Swiss neighbour sums it up perfectly - he says that at the end of the news bulletin, when we have the weather forecast for the following day, instead of a map of France covered in symbols of clouds, or rain or sun over the different parts of the country, we should have a map of France with a 'strike' symbol over the different regions / cities, and the presenter then could tell us who's on strike, and for what reason. That way, he reckons, we could have 45 minutes of news instead of the first 25 minutes or so talking about a current or planned strike.
I find it difficult to argue with his logic.....
Edited to add the bit in italics....
The main problems with the unions here are limited to the State owned ( and quasi State owned ) companies such as EDF, SNCF, PTT and, of course, Government Services such as Education. It feels as though every single day, at least someone is on strike, and quite often for what seem like purely political reasons or as protest against planned Government reforms in whichever particular State owned company or Public Sector.
Of course there are a few others, but usually restricted to the French subsidiaries of multinationals.
And the Government always, ALWAYS, caves in.
Common link ? None of those are likely to shut down because of the financial consequences of the strike.
My Swiss neighbour sums it up perfectly - he says that at the end of the news bulletin, when we have the weather forecast for the following day, instead of a map of France covered in symbols of clouds, or rain or sun over the different parts of the country, we should have a map of France with a 'strike' symbol over the different regions / cities, and the presenter then could tell us who's on strike, and for what reason. That way, he reckons, we could have 45 minutes of news instead of the first 25 minutes or so talking about a current or planned strike.
I find it difficult to argue with his logic.....
Edited to add the bit in italics....
It's starting to seem that way, thinking of changing my name to Methuselah
What are the more recent figures?
Thanx. So not France then. Why is matey arguing on ancient figures to make a point?
Sacrebleu!! This McRon fella reminds me a lot of a young Napoleon!