That says it all.
Plenty of good United players haven't played for their national teams in the past also.
Yep and even back then I remember not all of the posters here liked him so it is not surprising to see most who think Fred isn't United quality.
Well, you sent me down a rabbit hole. I couldn't find a nice diagram like I originally posted (which I stole from somebody else a week or so ago), but I did find stats on the site that it links to. Interesting site actually - https://fbref.com/en/. It only has stats from the last four season from the top 5 leagues but it seems quite in-depth. Not sure if there's an option somewhere to get the information in a visual diagram so I just did up a table myself (I'll be pissed if I missed an easy way
).
Most loved Kante thought. Becuase he was genuinely fantastic. Fred really isn't, not yet at least.
Personally I'd put him up one level higher than you. He's not good enough to be one of the main men (which is our issue atm because he probably is our main man in midfield), but I think he's good enough to be one of the starting 11.
Good post.
Well, you sent me down a rabbit hole. I couldn't find a nice diagram like I originally posted (which I stole from somebody else a week or so ago), but I did find stats on the site that it links to. Interesting site actually - https://fbref.com/en/. It only has stats from the last four season from the top 5 leagues but it seems quite in-depth. Not sure if there's an option somewhere to get the information in a visual diagram so I just did up a table myself (I'll be pissed if I missed an easy way
First I just compared to Fred and Herrera, and it was actually the opposite of what I was expecting. Herrera actually attempts slightly more presses, but Fred has a higher success rate. Then I started comparing all of the main midfielders from Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea. If the player has played a decent amount for that team (or had gone elsewhere) I only used those stats, but if they are new players I included their old club. I don't have VDB's stats as it doesn't have the Eredivisie.
*pg= Per game.
Herrera and Fred are not just far ahead of our other midfielders, but also everyone else in the big four. Probably the most surprising thing though is how low McTominay is, he actually presses less than Pogba and Matic, and in fact Fernandinho and Gundogan are the only midfielders in the big four who are below him. It's also probably surprising that Pogba presses more than most of City's midfielders and a couple of Liverpool's (he has the lowest success rate though).
Then I did the same for the attacking players (without worrying about where on the field the press was):
For us, it should be noted that Martial improved last season and pressed more than Rashford, who actually pressed less than he had previously. I expected James and Lingard to be our best but it surprised me that they were as high as they were, particularly Lingard who has easily the best pressing numbers out of all the attackers I checked (only just below Fred and Herrera's midfield numbers). He puts even Firmino to shame. Speaking of Firmino, he's the one (and maybe now Jota?) who elevate the Liverpool numbers up, as Mane and Salah are fairly good but not amazing. It actually surprised me that City were so low (barely more than us), although Bernardo Silva would raise that up quite a bit. I put him in the central midfield list but he did play almost half of those matches on the wing.
These stats should be taken with the knowledge that Liverpool and City both dominate possession far more than we do, so they get their pressing numbers in a smaller amount of time. Of course that doesn't scale perfectly as the fact they don't have to defend as much enables them to have the energy and field position to press more easily, but it's something to keep in mind.
Another thing to take note of - all of our midfielders get almost as many pressing opportunities in the defensive 3rd as they do in the middle 3rd, which is obviously quite different than the other three teams. It shows that they play higher up the field than we do and tend to do more of their pressing on the front foot.
Liverpool - spread their pressing fairly evenly between attackers and midfielders, with Firmino the standout.
Man City - Normally sit their main DM back then spread the pressing, which was less than I expected, fairly evenly. Bernardo Silva being a standout (no way to really tell if his stats change depending what position he's playing).
Chelsea - A very solid high average throughout their midfield, with also a good amount in their forwards. Almost all of those forwards are new players whose stats are either in a short amount of time (Pulisic) or at previous clubs though.
Man Utd - the largest variance between players. In Fred, Lingard and previously Herrera they have/had the three highest attempted presses by quite some way from all players checked. Otherwise the midfield is decent, but the attack is quite low.
I'm not sure what your point is? You've just listed a bunch of City players (the majority of whom start for them) and proceeded to agonize over the fact that they'd start for us too. Ok...
Thanks for all the hard work. Really informative including your comments.Well, you sent me down a rabbit hole. I couldn't find a nice diagram like I originally posted (which I stole from somebody else a week or so ago), but I did find stats on the site that it links to. Interesting site actually - https://fbref.com/en/. It only has stats from the last four season from the top 5 leagues but it seems quite in-depth. Not sure if there's an option somewhere to get the information in a visual diagram so I just did up a table myself (I'll be pissed if I missed an easy way
First I just compared to Fred and Herrera, and it was actually the opposite of what I was expecting. Herrera actually attempts slightly more presses, but Fred has a higher success rate. Then I started comparing all of the main midfielders from Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea. If the player has played a decent amount for that team (or had gone elsewhere) I only used those stats, but if they are new players I included their old club. I don't have VDB's stats as it doesn't have the Eredivisie.
*pg= Per game.
Herrera and Fred are not just far ahead of our other midfielders, but also everyone else in the big four. Probably the most surprising thing though is how low McTominay is, he actually presses less than Pogba and Matic, and in fact Fernandinho and Gundogan are the only midfielders in the big four who are below him. It's also probably surprising that Pogba presses more than most of City's midfielders and a couple of Liverpool's (he has the lowest success rate though).
Then I did the same for the attacking players (without worrying about where on the field the press was):
For us, it should be noted that Martial improved last season and pressed more than Rashford, who actually pressed less than he had previously. I expected James and Lingard to be our best but it surprised me that they were as high as they were, particularly Lingard who has easily the best pressing numbers out of all the attackers I checked (only just below Fred and Herrera's midfield numbers). He puts even Firmino to shame. Speaking of Firmino, he's the one (and maybe now Jota?) who elevate the Liverpool numbers up, as Mane and Salah are fairly good but not amazing. It actually surprised me that City were so low (barely more than us), although Bernardo Silva would raise that up quite a bit. I put him in the central midfield list but he did play almost half of those matches on the wing.
These stats should be taken with the knowledge that Liverpool and City both dominate possession far more than we do, so they get their pressing numbers in a smaller amount of time. Of course that doesn't scale perfectly as the fact they don't have to defend as much enables them to have the energy and field position to press more easily, but it's something to keep in mind.
Another thing to take note of - all of our midfielders get almost as many pressing opportunities in the defensive 3rd as they do in the middle 3rd, which is obviously quite different than the other three teams. It shows that they play higher up the field than we do and tend to do more of their pressing on the front foot.
Liverpool - spread their pressing fairly evenly between attackers and midfielders, with Firmino the standout.
Man City - Normally sit their main DM back then spread the pressing, which was less than I expected, fairly evenly. Bernardo Silva being a standout (no way to really tell if his stats change depending what position he's playing).
Chelsea - A very solid high average throughout their midfield, with also a good amount in their forwards. Almost all of those forwards are new players whose stats are either in a short amount of time (Pulisic) or at previous clubs though.
Man Utd - the largest variance between players. In Fred, Lingard and previously Herrera they have/had the three highest attempted presses by quite some way from all players checked. Otherwise the midfield is decent, but the attack is quite low.
Not good enough?
How old are you? Genuinely curious? I've been following United for almost 30 years and Fletcher was treated/disparaged as badly if not worse than Fred is for a large part of his early years with us and it was only in the year or two before he was diagnosed with Crohns' that people valued him in our midfield. A significant proportion of fans couldn't see his value and thought he was Fergie's illegitimate child, calling him Darren Ferguson (due to Fergie's son having the same first name). JOS was also thought of as a just-adequate-but-never-world-class utility man by many for a good time, and not good enough. His first year was great (skinning Figo etc), but he had plenty average performances in his early days as he was adjusting, he never had pace, but cold slot in at LB and CB and helped build a platform for players like Rooney, Scholes etc. He was always in the squad and people always wanted better. Brown was a sicknote many a season with us, sort of like Bailly (but not as bad).
He was until his first (?) year with us when we played him little, and out of position (Mou - didn't want him possibly) and then benched him (post lockdown Ole not sing his bench for months). Matter of fact he was injured with them the year he joined us during that world cup campaign right before the tournament.
All of this - a lot of young fans on here it seems who only know players from highlight reels and articles. I've seen people say Fred doesn't pass forwards enough and only passes sideways (not necessarily in this thread). All critiques leveled at Carrick when he used to be a regular in the side and was Scholes "assistant". Carrick scored only 24 goals goals for us in a decade which was another criticism.
And the 93rd minute amatuerish moment when he handed Everton a draw on a plate ??You & @simplyared are focusing too much on small specific stats that don't really tell the bigger picture.
Let's talk about the defensive stuff:
If you watch how Fred plays, his amazing defensive attribute is on his ball recoveries and his pressing, these aspects offer lot of things in football match and the main one is forcing opposition players to make mistakes and lose the ball to regain possession back. So in other word, getting passed by players doesn't mean jack shit. How? Okay let me give you good example:
Against Everton there was one time where Coleman beat Fred and Coleman was able to get into our penalty box. But Fred didn't just give up when he got passed by player, he tracked Coleman back and putting Coleman under pressure right behind Coleman which forced Coleman to make mistake by making shot that was way off the target. If he wasn't under pressure, Coleman would have been in the situation where he would be in getting lot of space & time to make the right decision by crossing the ball which could have been an easy tap in goal for Calvert Lewin.
@MadDogg showed a screen shot of Fred being one of the best pressing player in the game, he's up there alongside Laimer who is known as pressing machine last season and one of RB Leipzig key player in midfield. Just like Fred, Laimer also get passed by players lot, his dribble past average in Bundesliga is 2 and in Champions League is 2.7.
And it's relevant to what I am about to tell you about Klopp. Klopp's philosophy is high press and gegenpressing. That philosophy doesn't require midfield that doesn't get passed easily. Nagelsmann is a good example playing high press and gegenpressing and he has Laimer in his midfield who also get dribbled past lot.
Now, let's talk about his ball playing stuff:
Fred has weakness with his composure on the ball but that's just one aspect and that aspect doesn't stop us winning matches, there are many aspect you can view about passing ability. Unlike Herrera, Fred can pass the ball using both of his feet and his instinct is to play progressive passes not safe passes. Last season Fred had 3.8 long ball, 87.5 passing accuracy & 1.2 key passes, and he plays in deep role of double pivot. All of these combined are better than what Herrera did with us, Kante did last season and Laimer did. He's nowhere near as good as playmaker like Thiago, Scholes or Carrick but his passing ability is still better than lot midfielders out there.
And based on June 2020 stats, his ball progressive is above lot of players.
No I wasn’t. I am sure this thread would be totally different had his blunder cost 2 points.
The fact is, his blunder in added time could have cost us 2 points. The thread title states an opinion. I hope this forum allows me to debate objectively.
