Liverpool have nothing but midfielders who run around a lot..
Fred is one of the most underrated players in England
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Prone to a FEW mistakes is what I said. Every single game there is players make mistakes so can't see why you would want to make something of this. Fred will improve as it is a new position for him.
There’s a reason they bought Thiago. Are you saying Fred gets into their team?
Guess we’ll just have to wait & see. . .
Honestly, I don't think he makes many more mistakes than anyone else. When he makes a mistake he tends to get it badly wrong though so it's a lot more obvious and sticks in the mind. For instance people on this forum constantly go on about his passing being average/poor, but in reality his passing percentage is one of the highest in the team despite him playing riskier balls than most of our other central midfielders.
I think Fred does. He has all the attributes Klopp looks for in a midfielder.
Well played. . . So we can agree he’s ‘all action’ & befitting of what we perceive Klopp to like but the nuance of the question was does he get in ahead of Thiago, No. Fabinho, Hell No. Gigi, sorry but no. Jordan, I don’t even like him but no. He’d be battling it out with Milner who’d be in above him on consistency alone.
Maybe I’m missing something though & I hope he proves me wrong.
Aside McAverage & possibly Matic he certainly doesn’t play riskier passes than Pogba, Bruno, Mata or DVdB when he gets a run.
He’s quite obviously not a bad player but he’s the type we’d laugh at Arsenal for having in years past. He has good attributes but his reputation given the limited success since he joined is a tad embarrassing.
Bruno, Mata and VDB aren't central midfielders. The one game VDB played there he kept it very simple and didn't try to do much with his passing. Maybe given time he'll get more opportunities in that position and he'll end up playing more aggressively trying to push us forward, but in the very small sample size he's given us so far he's been very safe.
So you’re saying he makes riskier passes than McTom [who struggles to pass 10 yards] & Matic [who struggles to play a game a week] which in itself is damning praise.
Not true at all.
Thiago is a great passer, creative and great at retaining the ball, Fabinho is a better ball winner than we have, Henderson is a jack of all trades, Wjnaldum though I think hes overrated he does have some skills and can get involved with a pass or dribble and can get forward to score a goal something Fred doesnt.
Fred isnt as good as any of them
The key part of my point is that he has one of the highest passing percentages in the squad despite not being a particularly 'safe' passer. So it's strange that people go on about his passing as if he were giving it away constantly.
I agree. It was particularly evident when he first joined the team. His passes were to where the player tactically should have been. Unfortunately for Fred, some of our guys are slow to spot openings or never see them at all. He makes fewer “errors” now that he knows what to expect from his teammates.
Its not normally passing thats particularly a problem, although for someone who does seem to be a good passer in terms of his technique he doesnt make much happen with his passing. He tends to be content just moving the ball around in a basic fashion rather than trying to find a teammate in a dangerous area and upping the tempo
His problem tends to be his first touch, awareness of a player closing him down when receiving the ball coming towards his own goal and losing the ball too easily when pressed in a DM area which can quickly lead to a goalscoring chance for the opposition. That and players going past him too easily.
Don't rate him at all personally. Gives the ball away too much when making short simple passes, and often refuses to advance the ball by playing through the lines (likely due to him not being the most technically gifted)
I applaud his work rate and think he should be starting for us over Pogba/Matic at the moment as we need that energy, but I don't think he's anywhere near the level we need to get back in the mix for titles.
I applaud his work rate and think he should be starting for us over Pogba/Matic at the moment as we need that energy, but I don't think he's anywhere near the level we need to get back in the mix for titles.
Not sorry that I haven't played FIFA in years but I do wish that I had continued watching MOTD.
You talk about stats and then watching a full game. It's the latter that tells you that he's crap.
Thiago has played like 2 games for them. Jordan and Wini were laughed at when Liverpool bought them, nevet mind Fred.
Freds work ethic and ability to cover ground fits into Klopps style.
I love Fred to bits. My United supporting brother, doesn't rate him at all and I'm constantly defending him. He's a Duracell bunny. A pressing machine. Those who don't rate him, acknowledge this part of his game but view it as a pre-requisite for a United player, or indeed any professional footballer. Fact of the matter though is that if we could bottle Fred's work rate, tenacity and stamina and gave some of it to Pogba, then he would be the best midfielder in the world. Anyway, I digress. This isn't about bashing Pogba because I'm a fan of his also.
Truth is, aside from Fred's world class work rate and stamina, he's also very good at other things. He has an element of the famed 'Brazilian flair' and imagination in his game, which allows him to manipulate the ball when in tight situations. It's quite an unusual, but welcomed attribute for a player with his skill set. He can keep it simple, but is also brave in possession when the occasion calls for it and is very adept at threading a ball through the eye of a needle. On top of this, he has a decent turn of pace and is a good dribbler of the ball. This is very useful, as he occasionally bypasses the press completely, purely by driving through teams.
Before I come across as blinded by my admiration for Fred, I can accept that occasionally his passing can be inconsistent and his first touch a little loose. He has also shown himself to be a poor finisher. At times he will over-commit himself, but this is a high risk/high reward approach and generally benefits the team more than it costs us. Ultimately, no player is perfect and I don't see too many players of his type in Europe that offer what he does. I honestly feel that he could play for any team in Europe and aside from perhaps two or three clubs, he'd be a starter at all of them.
Truth is, aside from Fred's world class work rate and stamina, he's also very good at other things. He has an element of the famed 'Brazilian flair' and imagination in his game, which allows him to manipulate the ball when in tight situations. It's quite an unusual, but welcomed attribute for a player with his skill set. He can keep it simple, but is also brave in possession when the occasion calls for it and is very adept at threading a ball through the eye of a needle. On top of this, he has a decent turn of pace and is a good dribbler of the ball. This is very useful, as he occasionally bypasses the press completely, purely by driving through teams.
Before I come across as blinded by my admiration for Fred, I can accept that occasionally his passing can be inconsistent and his first touch a little loose. He has also shown himself to be a poor finisher. At times he will over-commit himself, but this is a high risk/high reward approach and generally benefits the team more than it costs us. Ultimately, no player is perfect and I don't see too many players of his type in Europe that offer what he does. I honestly feel that he could play for any team in Europe and aside from perhaps two or three clubs, he'd be a starter at all of them.
Thats just 2 of the qualities, he's missing the majority. The same could be said for almost any player who works hard and runs
He needs to improve his touch and some of his passing, but some of that is a team issue as we have no shape/system when trying to play through teams, think @Web of Bissaka put a good thread about it in another thread.
This is exactly what he does which for me isn't a quality. You could put Daniel James in the same position and he would do that just as good, if not better. I cannot understand why so many posters rave about a player who is so bang average. Agree?
100% agree. He is happy to stay deep and play simply passes left and right. He cannot defend. He cannot shoot. When closed down in games he is simply neutralized.
He had a good game vs PSG and also vs Everton but nearly cost us 2 points in final seconds after some terrible defending.
He is 5th most expensive signing !
Slight hyperbole.
Fred's passing isn't amazing but it's good enough for the role he plays. Off the top of my head I would say that only Pogba and Bruno are noticeably better passers in our current team (Daniel James ffs
). What we would want though is for his partner to be our main playmaker while Fred makes things happen around him with his relentless energy, ball-winning ability, dribbling and decent passing. Unfortunately he tends to most often be played next to Scott McTominay so Fred has to be our main passer, meaning the partnership as a whole is definitely lacking. In saying that there have been signs lately that he's stepping up in that regard (should have had two very good assists against Everton for instance).Liverpool won the title last season and I don't think man-to-man any of their midfielders is truly world-class.
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WUM? Can't be serious with that
Holy feck reading through the last posts in this thread... What a trainwreck. Makes you wonder whether people actually watch us play football.
One of our best players under Ole and one that makes us click. Our midfield is non existent without him
One of our best players under Ole and one that makes us click. Our midfield is non existent without him
You're missing my point. My comments are based on the points taken up by @Ekeke (which I agree on) saying Fred moves the ball around in basic fashion and doesn't acomplish a hell of a lot. I assume yourself, along with so many other posters, highlighting his good engine and workrate, would agree Daniel James also has those attributes. So why wouldn't James be able to do the same?Slight hyperbole.
Fred's passing isn't amazing but it's good enough for the role he plays. Off the top of my head I would say that only Pogba and Bruno are noticeably better passers in our current team (Daniel James ffs
Completely different system. Yes Fred could be part of a title winning team, if that team had the best defence and attack in the league, with full backs that do all the creating for them.
Only way he works is with a DLP next to him, but they still have to be excellent defensively otherwise we get over run in there, hence why we look better with McT next to him to share the workload. Simply just doesn't offer enough to be underrated, you could swap him with half of the midfielders in the top half of the league and see no noticeable drop off.
And yet our best runs of form under Ole have mostly come without him.
Thats not true, at all. Unless the qualties is win the ball back and pass it wide to the FB/inside strikers and keep it tight through the middle? Because Fred wins it back well, covrs the defence and gets it forward as quickly as he can as well.
Bruno Fernandes has scored more goals this year than Liverpool midfielders have scored over the last 3 seasons. Liverpools midfieldlers are not doing anything special.
Fred gets beaten by players more often than he takes the ball from them. Liverpool's midfielders dont let that happen, thats why they provide solidarity in the middle in front of the defence. They make it harder to break and exploit players out of position.
Fred isnt good at winning the ball, he just works hard. So despite not being particularly good at it he ends up making plenty of tackles and interceptions accumulatively. Those numbers are still less than they should be and he's easier to play against than a DM should be.
Its the same as if a player is a hard worker, he might get on the ball and make lots of passes but that doesn't mean hes a good passer. That would be determined by how good/effective the successful passes are vs how often they fail and make a poor one. Its the same here. Fred is always looking for a ball winning situation but he's not particularly skilled in that area. He just fails until he succeeds and succeeds a certain amount in 90 mins
Liverpool
He's not a ball winner or a defensive midfielder like Makelele or Kante. Maybe, just maybe that's why.
He's a CM. Even those screenshots say the same. Why people having hard time to accept that I don't know.
Because even in those aspects Fred is far better. He's literally in the top three or so players in all of Europe with his pressing numbers, and he doesn't just have 'good' engine and workrate - he's one of the best around.
James is fast. He has decent workrate for a winger, that's about it. And that's not even going into how much better at every other aspect of being a central midfielder Fred is. Do you think we would have won 6, drawn 1 and lost 1 of the 8 games Fred has started this season (while scoring 20 and conceding 4) if we'd played James in central midfield instead?
While I agree that the opposition get past him a bit more than we'd ideally want (mostly because he overcommits), it also has to be remembered that one thing that isn't shown in those stats is how often he forces the opposition to give the ball away. I remember one game recently (pretty sure it was Leipzig) where he forced turnovers three times in less than ten minutes. The pressure he was putting them under made them stuff up their passes and they gave it straight to one of our players. That doesn't get included in Fred's stats; indeed it would have been noted down as an interception by whichever player received it even though all they mostly did was benefit from Fred's hard work. In fact I wonder if some of those times get put into Fred's 'dribbled past' column if the opposition get partly past him then force a pass.Fred gets beaten by players more often than he takes the ball from them. Liverpool's midfielders dont let that happen, thats why they provide solidarity in the middle in front of the defence. They make it harder to break and exploit players out of position.
Fred isnt good at winning the ball, he just works hard. So despite not being particularly good at it he ends up making plenty of tackles and interceptions accumulatively. Those numbers are still less than they should be and he's easier to play against than a DM should be.
Its the same as if a player is a hard worker, he might get on the ball and make lots of passes but that doesn't mean hes a good passer. That would be determined by how good/effective the successful passes are vs how often they fail and make a poor one. Its the same here. Fred is always looking for a ball winning situation but he's not particularly skilled in that area. He just fails until he succeeds and succeeds a certain amount in 90 mins
Liverpool
That was when Pogba decided to turn up. He’s been very good in most games for Ole. Shown by how many games we have won this season with and without him
Which is kind of my point. When Pogba is playing well we’re a better team because he can pass the ball. Fred is incredibly limited and while he’s our main midfielder we’ll remain mediocre. The problem is that Pogba’s performances this season have been such that we’ve had no option but to drop him.
In short, Fred is like an Andy Robertson in midfield.
Wouldnt our other players then have big numbers for winning the ball if Fred 's pressing work led to us winning the ball a lot?
The only one we have is Wan-Bissaka who had giant numbers when he wasnt playing with Fred.
In theory it would be Matic or McTominay reaping the benefits, sitting back a bit and pouncing on the ball that Fred pressed someone into playing. But they have quite mediocre numbers for players in their role so I don't think its the case.
We dont have a lot of the ball and we don't win the ball a lot from the opposition, we're very ordinary in those ways.
Its more a case of the times we do win the ball when we break up an opponents attack we have players who are very effective counter attacking and making the most out of it. So obviously it is still important that players are able to break up some attacks, because thats where our most effective attacks spring from. If we never did it our attackers would be ineffective. But its not like we break up opponents moves more than most teams and then our attackers are given lots of the ball to try something. Thats usually not the case. They have to make something happen despite being provided with a bit less.
Fred's one of our most indispensable players, I can't believe he's being called "hot garbage", absolutely clueless.
Is there somewhere with numbers for the previous seasons? or is it only now people are starting to care about pressing numbers so this is the only thing available?
And at the same time, Alan had a dissappointing season at Napoli after a really good one and was sold to Everton. His numbers are similar to Fred
You need to wear your specs the next time you watch us play. "pretending he is breaking up attacks" ffs. The fact Pep wants him tells you al you need to know. Fred is our most important CM and was before the lockdown too. One doesn't get into the Brazil national team by being shite.
This is a crucial point ignored far too often. It's also why Bruno at times gives away te ball a lot. A lot of our forward players are stood still waiting for passes to feet, instead of moving constantly to get passes into space. It will always look bad if you pass a ball into space but the player doesn't move to it.
Scholes, Carrick etc were brilliant at passing into space, but we also had intelligent forwards and wingers (on both wings) who knew they couldn't play a match by standing on a paint-by-numbers spot.
I think if we ever balance the right flank, and get mobile CBs the midfield will look better because there will be more balance to the style Ole seems to want to play (high line) and more worries for the opposition limiting the extent to which they can press the middle and our back line.