I also saw Fred pass the ball straight to a Wolves attacker for a counter where we should have conceded, but AWB saved him
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I also saw Fred pass the ball straight to a Wolves attacker for a counter where we should have conceded, but AWB saved him
He's become a mainstay for a United team who up until now haven't been anywhere near the level we're used to. We've been underdogs rather than competitors and Fred's ability fits in with that, which is why him & Scott do so well when we have played against the top 6, because we aren't expected to win those games, so we need players who are more dogged and less creative to break up play.
But let's not kid ourselves here - that's not the usual standard of a Man United midfielder. That's what we've had to adapt to post-SAF to help us rebuild.
We've gone past that stage now, and are now trying to establish ourselves as leaders of the pack - in order to do that we need quality in possession because in almost every game we play we are going to be considered the favourites, the opposition will let us have the ball and we need players who offer more than what Fred is currently capable of doing. He's been here 4(?) years, and everyone knows what to expect from him - which is fine in some situations, but not good enough in most games we'll find ourselves in.
He needs McTominay & plays much better next to him, I understand that - but that still doesn't make him (or Scott) good enough to be a starting player for the level that we all want to return to, he should be a squad player and I feel sorry for the guy sometimes because you can see that he struggles but he continues to try, it's admirable, but doesn't change anything.
As for national team comparison, it's not like Brazil's squad is full to the brim with talent either, they're actually quite disappointing considering the level we're used to seeing from them over the last 30 years or so (not too dissimilar to United)
Every other team who is expected to be a title contender or challenge in Europe has either defensive midfielder or b2b who does every thing Fred does, and also offer more - whether through strength, passing, headers or goals.
He'll get replaced soon enough, OGS has made it clear that he wants more midfielders, whether it happens this season or next it's inevitable, and we'll be much better for it.
If you're looking at this and what you think you're seeing is a pass instead of a miscontrol, then it's time for an appointment with an optician.
That's true, his determination is what endears him to fans which is understandable.
But we need quality midfielders.
Gets too much hate. He is a good midfielder.
Dribbled past 5 times today.
It’s hilarious that he is Brazilian. His touch is as if he wears concrete blocks on his feet instead of boots.
It’s hilarious that he is Brazilian. His touch is as if he wears concrete blocks on his feet instead of boots.
Playing as if he's out of position, might actually be the case. Never convinced me as the deepest midfielder - for Brazil where he did well he was playing next to Casemiro.
I really like him and maybe he can form a partnership with pog over time
Everyone loves a trier….it’s the saving grace of my career
Everyone loves a trier….it’s the saving grace of my career
Opposite of mine, i'm much more like Berbatov, as minimal effort as possible
Serious question - what is he actually good at?
Defensively he's not good unless you think running around chasing the ball whilst having a poor tackle success rate is being good defensively. He doesn't create chances or score goals and his passing is erratic at best whilst being poor over long distance.
Defensively he's not good unless you think running around chasing the ball whilst having a poor tackle success rate is being good defensively. He doesn't create chances or score goals and his passing is erratic at best whilst being poor over long distance.
It’s a great question actually….what footballer sums up your career. Painful that I can’t think of anyone more suitable than FredOpposite of mine, i'm much more like Berbatov, as minimal effort as possible
The most successful period in the clubs history since SAF, Fred has played the majority of the games. This includes when there was no Bruno, Matic was nearly out the door and Pogs was injured. There was a period where there was no Scott too. Good enough is subjective, I think he can be upgraded but a world class CDM will not makes us challenge for the league. We still have no clear style of play, no patterns of play or structure and continue to rely on individual brilliance to get us out of trouble.
Wait, what period are we talking about here?
Ole's period.
One of the worst individual performances I’ve ever seen by a United player. I gave him a 1 today, though that might have been too generous.
Fred could use a couple of days off away from the training ground. Perhaps some meditation. Anything to get his head sorted out.
Fred could use a couple of days off away from the training ground. Perhaps some meditation. Anything to get his head sorted out.
He's just nowhere near good enough and he has periods in games where he's absolutely fecking appalling.
And no Bruno? Is that the interim period? In that case, I believe Pog was there, and wasn't Herrera playing instead of Fred then?
I always backed him when people would ignore what he brought on the pitch and call him average because his style is not eye catching. But he has been widely inconsistent since last season. The way he gets dribbled past so easily is ridiculous
He has a role to play but he’s just too inconsistent to be trusted as the deepest midfielder. He can have good games but unfortunately his bottom level is bad. Seems to be happening more often than not at the moment.
Fred has played throughout and the biggest games, many of which we have won, he's played. That's not to say there's been some feck ups along the way but who hasn't? Fred is not the answer but the sole problem. Anyone that thinks bringing in a CDM is the solution for me is mistaken, improve it yep but Christ watching last week and today, we are such a poorly coached team.
He isnt really a DMC that is able to shield back line alone while Pogba and Bruno are forward, he has some weird moments during a game that are not directly connected with position he plays.
I genuinely think had we had a top DM, we'd have won today and vs Southampton quite comfortably. 2 of their best attacks came thanks to Fred's feckups in the 1st 10 mins. A few more feckups in the 1st half, and while you can blame Pog for that, a lot of it is also down to Fred's tendency of committing too early and too often
At what level ? Fred is certainly one of the biggest problems in this team. He's the equivalent of Herrera, fills a position offers nothing outside of this description.
If the club sign a defensive midfielder Fred should be sold. He's not needed in the event a shielding DM is acquired. At least Mctomminay can play the box to box role, has goals in him as seen last season and has more 'bite' to his game. Out of every first team player Fred is the biggest liability, even more than AWB in possession.
I've never considered him to be particularly slow, but watching him today he was lumbering about like Matic, totally outpaced many times and slow to turn. Has he been on the Anderson diet and just hides it well?
He was done in a similar way at Southampton last week.
All the Fred fan club on here were raving about his “amazing” play in the copa America and how he was going to make the difference this season.
What a joke !
@MadMike i said in last seasons thread and I’ll say it again here: Fred’s passing statistics do not paint the full picture. You cannot fully measure a good pass by simple statistics.
If the ball is played behind the recipient rather than to feet/to run on to, they may well still get the ball. The statistics will likely show a successful forward pass. The reality will be the momentum of an attacking move lost.
If you underhit a pass and play the recipient into trouble - again - it will probably go down as a successful pass, but the reality will likely be a turnover of possession (as the next player has to clear the ball) or a chance for the opponent (if the next player loses the ball due to the poor pass).
These are the sorts of things I see from Fred every single game. There are no specific stats for them by their nature - it is very hard to properly objectively measure the quality of the pass, but it is plainly obvious that Fred fails here.
I agree that Fred isn’t a DM and shouldn’t be paired with Pogba - both are too erratic and sloppy in possession. The problem is that I don’t see what sort of magical unicorn midfielder you need to go alongside Fred - there are just too many things he doesn’t do. His closest comparison would be Kante, but the latter is much more consistent, and is usually played in a 3-man midfielder where you can allow for a pure water carrier.
We really need to sign a DM, but I would hope we partner them with McTominay rather than Fred.
If the ball is played behind the recipient rather than to feet/to run on to, they may well still get the ball. The statistics will likely show a successful forward pass. The reality will be the momentum of an attacking move lost.
If you underhit a pass and play the recipient into trouble - again - it will probably go down as a successful pass, but the reality will likely be a turnover of possession (as the next player has to clear the ball) or a chance for the opponent (if the next player loses the ball due to the poor pass).
These are the sorts of things I see from Fred every single game. There are no specific stats for them by their nature - it is very hard to properly objectively measure the quality of the pass, but it is plainly obvious that Fred fails here.
I agree that Fred isn’t a DM and shouldn’t be paired with Pogba - both are too erratic and sloppy in possession. The problem is that I don’t see what sort of magical unicorn midfielder you need to go alongside Fred - there are just too many things he doesn’t do. His closest comparison would be Kante, but the latter is much more consistent, and is usually played in a 3-man midfielder where you can allow for a pure water carrier.
We really need to sign a DM, but I would hope we partner them with McTominay rather than Fred.
Today was one of Freds worse appearances with the club.
Its too late in the day to spend time doing any analysiz, but things like that failure to stop the ball that lead to AWB having to put his best Marvel performance in, was just very bad. He literally had it at his feet, and he failed to avert the chance.
Last season there were so many incidents where he was either flat out man of the match, or he was a steadfast contributor and midfield glue. This is a player who's worked himself a way into a starting spot for Brazil's national team, he should not be this bad. The passing is a real issue.
Its too late in the day to spend time doing any analysiz, but things like that failure to stop the ball that lead to AWB having to put his best Marvel performance in, was just very bad. He literally had it at his feet, and he failed to avert the chance.
Last season there were so many incidents where he was either flat out man of the match, or he was a steadfast contributor and midfield glue. This is a player who's worked himself a way into a starting spot for Brazil's national team, he should not be this bad. The passing is a real issue.
Teams are just going to target him, he's such an obvious weak link in our setup.
Similar happened to AWB, but Fred's is a far more important position. We need someone better in the CDM or we're simply not going to see the best of Sancho, Pogba, Bruno, CR7, Greenwood, etc.
Similar happened to AWB, but Fred's is a far more important position. We need someone better in the CDM or we're simply not going to see the best of Sancho, Pogba, Bruno, CR7, Greenwood, etc.
Agreed said this in a post just above. Fred is the definition of a liability. If he stays in the team it means a double pivot must be used with no alternative. The midfield is therefore tactically insufficient because it lacks balance. I can't think of a midfielder in world football who would compliment Fred's influence. He plays at to low of a standard in his performances, the stats can say one thing but the eyes say another and what we are seeing is a player who's not at the races for where this team intends to be.
Not a chance and whilst Fred was poor, we aren't winning either quite comfortably. Each season, there is a player who we think is the 'problem'. Not too dissimilar to managers. We get rid only to realise it wasn't the answer. Fred is not the answer but there are a load of other issues, one of which is a clear playing style and structure. We are still too over reliant on individual abilities
Alongside McTominay he is OK, in those games where Ole clearly feels we need to sacrifice creativity for fight. But to imagine that he'll be playing 40-50 games (if we buy no one) and Mejbri is wasted (and risked) in the U23s is criminal. If this is the level of performance that is OK, I'm pretty sure we can give Mejbri the game time he needs to show he can hack it.
Thank you, it's painfully obvious who to anyone who actually watches us rather than falling back on stats only.
Case in point; in the video at the top of the page Fred 'intercepted' the pass that led to the AWB clearance - but actually his poor touch led to a turnover of possession and a chance created for the opposition. But that interception will still register and the context behind it will be forgotten about when it gets clumped together in 3/4 months time as part of a statistics pack people use to convince themselves he's good enough.
It would be good to see one of those graphs that track the trajectory of passes played, because I suspect this would confirm his forward passes are mostly acute angles.
A shite footballer with some eminently positive attributes; often referred to by means of pretending he’s actually fine. He isn’t. He’s not remotely good enough to start regularly for us.
Yeah, he had a shocker today, but he's still a useful player.
He annoys and frustrates me a lot, but some people are going overboard with the criticism.
He annoys and frustrates me a lot, but some people are going overboard with the criticism.
Though he did himself no favours in the first half, he was more a victim of circumstance (or tactics as people say). If McTominay starts, with Pogba ahead of them either on the left or in the middle, we beat that high press. But McTominay was injured, and Ole currently doesn't have the options to replace him when we come up against a side like Wolves, who not only play a high press, but are game raising cnuts against us. Out of all of our options, only Pogba was the one that could be in anyway trusted to cover for McTominay. There are no solutions, only trade offs in life. Yes, neither player didn't cover themselves in glory, but they did recover in the second half and got us control of the game. Fred was largely on his own for most of that first half as Pogba was undisciplined and leaving him exposed, until he reigned it in in the second half and played deeper. It's a credit that both managed to salvage anything from that half.
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I dont know which one was worse, the one where he made a poor ten yard pass straight to the Wolves player and got done by Adama easily for the counter, which lead to the DDG foot? save,
or the one where he first miscontrols it and then gets absolutely done by Trincao I believe, and is saved by AWB.
He had a shocker first half. Second was a bit better and I think its because Pogba dropped deeper. Fred isnt a DM and should not be used as one. We desperately need to buy one (or surely we have one in youth?). I think he works better with somebody next to him or behind him. The problem for Fred is his passing range seems limited (when he tries, it can be very sad to watch). Hes not really a creator and it makes you think what is he good at or doing that hes better than others in. My answer is pressing opposition (but that was thrown out the window today).
or the one where he first miscontrols it and then gets absolutely done by Trincao I believe, and is saved by AWB.
He had a shocker first half. Second was a bit better and I think its because Pogba dropped deeper. Fred isnt a DM and should not be used as one. We desperately need to buy one (or surely we have one in youth?). I think he works better with somebody next to him or behind him. The problem for Fred is his passing range seems limited (when he tries, it can be very sad to watch). Hes not really a creator and it makes you think what is he good at or doing that hes better than others in. My answer is pressing opposition (but that was thrown out the window today).
At this stage I think everyone just sees what they want to see with Fred. His pass completion was 91.3%. That’s 10% better than the next most accurate midfielder, from either team. He also completed the joint highest number of passes of any player, for either team.
He didn’t pass the ball well against Southampton. There was nothing wrong with his passing against Wolves.
Passing aside. He made 33 pressures. The next best United player (Bruno) made 16. The best Wolves player (Neves) made 21.
People see the pass intercepted by Traore early on and the miscontrol that created another break, shortly after, then lose their minds “CAN’T PASS!!! WORST PLAYER EVER TO PLAY FOR THE CLUB!!”
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