Facts say otherwise, he's a far more progressive player than Kante for example who was hailed as one of the leagues best midfielders. He's not even that much worse on the ball than the players you mentioned. He's much more press resistant than when he first arrived and is more than capable of playing the ball into our strikers. The only pass he lacks is that long ball over the top but you don't need every midfielder able to pull that off. Its a team sport and you need players that compliment and add to others skill sets, the other two partners last night (Matic and VDB would rightly have been expected to shoulder more creative burden and they didn't do much of anything. Fred could play in pretty much every top team in the world, if not as a starter then as a valuable squad player. It seems your assessment is still based on the Fred of his debut season.
17
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
I hear ya man. I actually didnt think it was his best game and there were 4 or 5 passes that he made a bollcks of, but show me a player on the team who didnt do that, Bruno was guilty of misplacing several passes when he came on but for reasons unknown to me some people only count misplaced passes when its Fred who makes them.....bizarre really.
ive said it earlier, these stats really don’t tell a story. it’s why watching the game matters so much more.
Undercooked passes, passes that go between two players, but a United player picks it up all count as completed passes.
now clearly that applies to all players, that’s not the point, the point it that it shows the utter futility in arguing how good a player is based on two stats.
Most fans can only spot the obvious that's in front of them.
They notice a "unforced error" and not a lot else, so when Fred does mess a pass up ( usually under no pressure ) it looks sloppy and poor. His shooting close to goal is also not the best so that's obvious to the average fan.
Most people that know a bit more about football in depth recognise just how important he is to our side. There's no coincidence we win a lot more with him in the team than without him.
Let's not forget he also ran the midfield pretty much by himself with Matic hiding as a centre back AGAIN.
His energy in midfield is vital, but he needs a midfield partner who can be a bit more assertive next to him, that's all. The Fred/Pogba combo is the perfect one IMO, similar to Pogba/Kante that won the world cup.
They notice a "unforced error" and not a lot else, so when Fred does mess a pass up ( usually under no pressure ) it looks sloppy and poor. His shooting close to goal is also not the best so that's obvious to the average fan.
Most people that know a bit more about football in depth recognise just how important he is to our side. There's no coincidence we win a lot more with him in the team than without him.
Let's not forget he also ran the midfield pretty much by himself with Matic hiding as a centre back AGAIN.
His energy in midfield is vital, but he needs a midfield partner who can be a bit more assertive next to him, that's all. The Fred/Pogba combo is the perfect one IMO, similar to Pogba/Kante that won the world cup.
I think if people are still hating on him after the last few games where he’s been directly involved in our build up to goals and most of the positive moves weve created then there’s no hope unless he starts banging in 10 goals a season on top of being our most industrious performer by far. It’s our attack that looked like strangers out there and continue to do so. Someone’s gotta get the blame we aren’t going to win the title this year though.
So true! I fecking hate that statement.
I think that’s what it is. It’s all there in front of you if you take off the blinkers. Him running around running the midfield pretty much alone while our forwards run around ignoring each other for 2 hours but his passing style is the reason we aren’t winning by more. Madness. Without him in the team we lose a major amount of tempo and bite and give up the midfield battle and other teams build up momentum and high risk counters against us. Add in that he’s also been heavily involved in setting up our goals and anything positive we do all while pressuring the opponent and keeping them penned back and I don’t really know what else people expect from him. In that role rice, fenardinhio, Kante, Fabinho, Allan etc none of them are assisting, pre-assisting, scoring or even nearly as positive in their overal play as Fred but you’d think they are winning games singlehandedly the way some of our fans talk. It’s their attack that’s winning them games and their defence/gk don’t just leak soft goals at will. They also have other players in the middle who compliment each other and work just as hard. We only have Fred and McT. Is it that they only watch United matches and YouTube highlights of players? His style mightn’t be to everyone’s taste but he’s damn effective and the least of our worries at this moment in time.
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I love this type of argument.
someone disagrees with your opinion, then they don’t know about football.
but you are right because you know “a little more” about football
I do agree about Matic, it’s been going on for far too long. I don’t have stats to back that up, I just watch the game...
We look better with him in the side. Without his energy which is a good momentum changer, we look very one paced in midfield
Is Fred a poor passer? Is that a serious question?
Of course he is a poor passer of the ball, not sure how that is even up for debate. 99% of his passes are short and sideways and to be honest he even makes a lot of those look laboured. Under/over hit, way too hard, way too soft or completely off target which usually results in his teammates scrambling to intercept it. Stats take none of that into account, so they are fairly meaningless in isolation without context. A player could complete 1000 short passes every match it still wouldn't make them a good passer.
Look l like Fred i said as much in my previous two posts in this thread, but people need to stop posting the same passing % stats after every match as if it proves anything. Lots of people who watch United and Fred regularly (and don't use stats to judge a player) have come to the obvious conclusion that he is a very poor passer of the ball. All those people are not suffering from some sort of shared mass delusion. He is a very poor passer of the ball, we all see it he just is.
Why do you think so many United fans think he is a poor passer?
I dont think I've actually claimed him to be a good passer, my argument is that those stats prove he is not as useless on the ball as some on here make out.
I think a lot of it has to do with biases as when he misplaces a pass it tends to be a simple one that he should have made, that clouds people judgement t and they ignore everything else he does. It doesnt mean all the rest of his passes are shit, short, sideways or backwards etc as you suggest. He also doesnt give the ball away as much as many of his team mates, mctominay being a prime example.
I'm not arguing that he is Pirlo or Scholes as clearly he isn't however those stats prove his value, 155 touches, Maguire being the only other one above 100. He gets stuck in, never gives up and works his bollocks off all qualities I happen to think are important.
The key stat for me really is that out of the 7 games we have lost this season, fred has not played in 5 of them so when he doesnt play we tend to lose - why do you think that is? Genuine question.
Opinions don't matter much when every stat says differently.I love this type of argument.
someone disagrees with your opinion, then they don’t know about football.
but you are right because you know “a little more” about football
I do agree about Matic, it’s been going on for far too long. I don’t have stats to back that up, I just watch the game...
You might not like Freds style but that doesn't make him a bad or ineffective player.
He is a water carrier, he isn't a specialist playmaker like some and perhaps that's what you want him to be, but he'll never be that. It's like asking Pogba to do what Fred does, Pogba will never be able to run and be ratty like Fred, but he brings something different in terms of creativity and goalscoring.
That's why getting balance in the side is important, many people in that France WC winning side would say Pogba is/was a better player than Kante, but Kante was more important?
I don't think anybody is saying Fred is perfect and the best player ever and he has areas to improve, but people talk like he's bang average which is just really not correct at all.
I take your point that stats dont tell the full story but I also dont think they are as meaningless as you suggest.
I actually didnt think it was his best game last night but as I pointed out to the poster above at least he shows up, at least his works hard, at least he presses the opposition for the full 90 mins or 120 as was case last night and he does this consistently, game in and game out. I wish the rest of the squad would match him for effort.
I think what annoys me most about the argument against Fred that he is not great on the ball therefore he is shit or he gives the ball away so he is shit, why do we ignore Rashford and Bruno or Mctominay (who is shocking for giving the ball away) for losing the ball so often but slate Fred for it? Why does he seem to be the only one on the team that gets stick for misplacing passes? I think the others mentioned above get away with it because they bring other qualities to the team - but so does Fred! Sure I would prefer to have Xabi Alonso in there but we dont.
Fred has to start for me as the amount of times we lose when he doesnt play cant be ignored.
I love this type of argument.
someone disagrees with your opinion, then they don’t know about football.
but you are right because you know “a little more” about football
I do agree about Matic, it’s been going on for far too long. I don’t have stats to back that up, I just watch the game...
And his reply will just be he’s still shite because I think it. Pogba has zero assists in the league this year. McT has one. That’s probably Fred’s fault too.
You posted his passing stats and then asked me if i think that his passing is still poor. So forgive me if i came to the conclusion that you were trying to say he was a good passer.
People can bang on about his other good qualities, most of which i agree with see my other posts in this thread there aren't many. But all i'm saying is he is atrocious on the ball and a terrible passer of the ball. How that's even a controversial opinion i don't know it seems obvious.
I wouldn't presume to know exactly why but if i had to guess its due to several factors. One being partly coincidence as i'm sure similar could be said of other players who didn't play in most of our losses. But also as i've said previously he works very hard and he's very good at protecting the defence and breaking up opposition play something we miss when he doesn't play.
is that aimed at me
I don’t expect Fred to be a player who gets assists. Does anyone? Clearly he’s not that type of player, and not why he’s in the side.
As an aside, the obsession with assist numbers is just as ridiculous.
stats have their place, but posting time and again about 90% pass completion means little without any context.
as for you last sentence, reread it, and let me know how immature you now think that it? You can articulate a comment in a discussion forum far better.
Has anyone actually said they think he is shite?
Why some take criticisms of certain players so personally, in threads that exist specifically to discuss the good and bad of players performances. I'll never know.
If you play a double pivot of matic and fred you need one of them to be able to go forward against a team like west ham and its hardly going to be matic doing that role. Having said that he is hopeless at it. I have been impressed with him at times this season but would definitely sell him at the end of the season. I just dont see he can perform either of the double pivot roles well enough
You need one of them to take the ball forward. They don't need to be the sole creator (that was VDB's job), they can offload it to somebody else when they've made some ground up. Fred is actually pretty good at that, he can play on the turn and make the mid length passes through the lines.
Fred is one the last players we should sell, ridiculous to say we should offload him in the summer.
He's aggressive and combative, but people go past him, he's lightweight and he has worse defensive instincts that Matic tracking back into our box. So he's miles off a proper defensive minded DM
Fair enough, we will agree to disagree on him being atrocious on the ball and a terrible passer. I think he is far from atrocious but certainly no David Backham either. I would probably class AWB in the atrocious on the ball category and I dont think Fred is anywhere near as bad.
Anyway, I agree on your points re breaking up play, protecting defence, I think he is crucial in that regard.
Stats are useless the vast majority of his passes were hit behind the player who had to turn back to get the ball and slowed play up or blasted straight at the player hitting him but leaving him unable to fully control the ball all of which count as accurate passes according to your stats
That combination was supplemented by playing Matuidi on the left-hand side in a sort of false-LW role to help accomodate Pogba.
The similarities between France's 2018 team and ours are quite striking (just flipped with drops in quality on our part):
-----------Pogba-------Kante---------------
Mbappe-----Griezmann-----Matuidi
--------------------Giroud----------------------
-----------Pogba--------Fred-----------------
-------?------------Bruno---------Rashford
--------------------Cavani-----------------------
Could have been an interesting idea for Ole to explore in a way to create a more balanced double pivot system with Pogba playing deeper. We obviously just lack the crucial Matuidi alternative given how technically, physically, and tactically sound he was at the time.
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I'm not sure Pogba ever really needed "help" as much as people think he did, it was just Matuidi was perfect at that role and it coincided with helping to give Pogba a bit more freedom where required.
But yes we do play a similar style, I think the step up from Shaw has been a big help in Pogba's resurgence in the CM role. Whenever I watch him for France he's always got an outball free to the fullbacks when he gets pressed, but at United he was always pretty boxed in. Now that our fullbacks are not hiding anywhere near as much he's able to ping it out wide instead of trying to hang on and ride the press himself.
Would have been cool to have tried out a system where Greenwood played on the RW in that formation against the smaller teams then the Matuidi-alternative came in against the bigger teams to help balance the midfield.
I'd have said VDB seemed like a good candidate at the start of the season but recent performances have killed that idea. Barella at Inter looks like he'd have been an excellent choice for the role as an example of someone who moved at the same time for a similar-ish price to Donny.
The vast majority? That's shocking, he should probably be dropped then.
I've never seen a player so hated and so loved by different fans of the club he plays for.
You either lover him or hate him. Quite bizarre.
You either lover him or hate him. Quite bizarre.
No one should be the sole creator. The less defensive member of the double pivot should also be able to get forward and be a goal threat padticularly against defensive teams like west ham. Given that fred cant do that i do wonder what role he can play
If we sign a proper defensive midfielder in the summer then yes i would be tempted to sell him because we will have a lot of bodies in midfield
So this post (and others) claiming that he does nothing but short sideways passing made me decide to go check out the stats for a few players and see what percentage different players pass short, medium and long. Started off just with our players and a couple of others, then I got curious and ended up looking at the deeper midfielders in all the top teams and a couple of other noteworthy ones for 25 players in total. Wasn't necessarily to compare Fred, I just wanted to get an idea of trends and see if different teams are significantly different or if there's any individuals who are stand outs.
Noteworthy things (bear in mind I'm talking percentages for each player, not total passes):
- I took Fabinho's stats from last season since he's played in defence this time. Likewise I only counted Pogba's, Henderson's and Sissoko's stats from when they played in midfield.
- Phillips and Neves are significant outliers, with far less short passes and far more long passes than anyone else
- Other than those two outliers, Fabinho, Moutinho and Thiago are the only players that play short passes significantly less than Fred. There are another 5 who are 1 or 2% less.
- Pogba is actually the one who plays a significant amount of short passes in our midfield.
Significantly less - Fabinho, Moutinho and Thiago
Fractionally less - McTominay, Rodri, Henderson, Xhaka, Tielemans
Same - Kovacic, Partey
Fractionally more - Matic, Kante, Rice, Hojbjerg
Significantly more - Fernandinho, Allan, Ndidi, Soucek, Sissoko
Massively more - Pogba, Jorginho, Doucoure
So Fred actually plays short passes slightly less often than your average deep midfielder, with only 10 players doing less and 12 doing it more. Meanwhile he plays a higher percentage of long passes than all but Henderson, Thiago, Tielemans, Moutinho and the two outliers of Phillips and Neves.
So take from that what you will. I might make a separate thread to talk about the stats in general rather than focusing on Fred like I have here. But Fred passing it short 37% of the time is actually below average for his position, so it's strange that some people think otherwise.
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So this post (and others) claiming that he does nothing but short sideways passing made me decide to go check out the stats for a few players and see what percentage different players pass short, medium and long. Started off just with our players and a couple of others, then I got curious and ended up looking at the deeper midfielders in all the top teams and a couple of other noteworthy ones for 25 players in total. Wasn't necessarily to compare Fred, I just wanted to get an idea of trends and see if different teams are significantly different or if there's any individuals who are stand outs.
Noteworthy things (bear in mind I'm talking percentages for each player, not total passes):
I took Fabinho's stats from last season since he's played in defence this time. Likewise I only counted Henderson's and Sissoko's stats from when they played in midfield.
Phillips and Neves are significant outliers, with far less short passes and far more long passes than anyone else
Other than those two outliers, Fabinho, Moutinho and Thiago are the only players that play short passes significantly less than Fred. There are another 5 who are 1 or 2% less.
Massively less - Phillips and Neves
Significantly less - Fabinho, Moutinho and Thiago
Fractionally less - McTominay, Rodri, Henderson, Xhaka, Tielemans
Same - Kovacic, Partey
Fractionally more - Matic, Kante, Rice, Hojbjerg
Significantly more - Fernandinho, Allan, Ndidi, Soucek, Sissoko
Massively more - Pogba, Jorginho, Doucoure
So Fred actually plays short passes slightly less often than your average deep midfielder, with only 10 players doing less and 12 doing it more. Meanwhile he plays a higher percentage of long passes than all but Henderson, Thiago, Tielemans, Moutinho and the two outliers of Phillips and Neves.
Pogba is actually the one who plays a significant amount of short passes in our midfield. I forgot to take out the games he played on the wing but that doesn't change it much (43% instead of the 44% I have in the sheet).
So take from that what you will. I might make a separate thread to talk about the stats in general rather than focusing on Fred like I have here. But Fred passing it short 37% of the time is actually below average for his position, so it's strange that some people think otherwise.
Edit: I stuffed up Jorginho's stats slightly. I believe it should be 34 medium passes per game, not 44.
Nice work putting it together but to be honest stats like these don't change my opinion at all mate.
I remember someone a few years back was using similar stats to claim Phil Jones was one of the best passers of the ball in the squad because he had very good long pass completion rate.
Long pass = > 30 yards (Why isn't it measured in metric?)
So a pass drilled 30 yards along the ground to the centreback or fullback under no pressure with no opposition players around to intercept is registered as a completed long pass.
A long lifted pass of 30-40-50-60 yards played forward through and over opposition players in an attempt to create an attack gets intercepted is not registered as a completed long pass.
So if someone does the former 10-15 times a game and completes 12 they are a good long passer. But if someone does the latter 10-15 times but only completes 3 they are a bad long passer.
And there in lies the problem of stats without context, especially passing stats.
Who claimed he only plays short passes?
What I don’t get is how people think short passes are a bad thing. Sometimes you just play a pass to a team mate who maybe gives it straight back to you or vice versa to try and move the opposition about to creat other openings.
At times I really wonder if many on the CAF ever played football or have ever watched a game in their lives. It’s also not as if that is all Fred does, again he passes through the lines a lot and has played some fantastic passes in his time here. Just off the top of my head that pass to Mata was an absolute peach. He slipped one against Chelsea through 3 players with no room for error and it was pristine opening them up.
I watch him and think he is quite a progressive passer, he is maybe not the one doing the final pass but he isn’t shy of playing difficult passes in to people around the area.
At times I really wonder if many on the CAF ever played football or have ever watched a game in their lives. It’s also not as if that is all Fred does, again he passes through the lines a lot and has played some fantastic passes in his time here. Just off the top of my head that pass to Mata was an absolute peach. He slipped one against Chelsea through 3 players with no room for error and it was pristine opening them up.
I watch him and think he is quite a progressive passer, he is maybe not the one doing the final pass but he isn’t shy of playing difficult passes in to people around the area.
Who said they were?
Short passes are important but literally anyone who can stand can play a short pass so saying someone has completed x amount of them is hardly evidence of a player being a good passer.
To be honest i would wonder the same of someone saying Fred is a good passer.
So is Bruno a good passer?
To me I class a good passer by first completing your pass, the difficulty of the pass you tried, how well the ball is played to the person you’re passing to, is it flat, or is it at knee height, thigh height, hard to control, is it fast enough, too slow, what’s its intention.
i agree.Kudos to @MadDogg for putting together.
but I think this really highlights the weakness of using stats.
I’m not the biggest fan of Fred he does however have qualities) - clearly that doesn’t mean I don’t think everything he does is poor, it’s not binary.
but what I take issue with is people throwing this 90% pass completion stat around to say he’s a good passer of the ball.
always happy to have a debate about players, whether we agree or disagree - that’s part of why we are here. But for me, stats can compliment what we see on the pitch, but can’t be the argument.
Because it doesn’t suit their obvious agenda. Doggedly claiming his passes while statistically accurate and are still “constantly behind the receiving player” or he never makes difficult passes simply isn’t true or at the very least they aren’t watching other midfielders effortlessly and creatively spray the ball around for their team in the PL either. Look at Thiago since he came in? Shite! And he’s world class passer. It’s a fantasy made up because they don’t like his style. Or others claiming he should be more creative on the ball when players in opposing teams in the same position create less and are way more passive. Another lad slamming his quality because we will never win with Fred because city have better players on the bench then we do? It’s mad. Someone else pipes up to say his really poor tackling is a reason he has so many yellow cards. Pogba has more yellows and tackles a lot less. AWB who is supposedly a generational tackler has more. There is no point though. At least do some research before declaring we can do way better. You show them the stats and prove them wrong that we are actually a much better and more solid team with Fred and compare to the top opposition players and that’s not good enough either. We would have to spend an awful lot to upgrade even a little bit in the same position and we’ve got much more pressing concerns to address in the meantime. I want us to find this magical player that will elevate us beyond what we’ve had to suffer watching Fred for the last 2 years. Pogba isn’t the answer anyway that’s for sure.
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The first half against Everton with McT and Pogba was probably the best half of football we've played in ages. Ultimately that's should be our 2 man midfield.
I'm not sure why it's measured in yards, it's just what FBref uses.
It should be noted that the passes played column (and the per 90mins) isn't just completed passes, it's all attempted passes so includes ones that don't work.
Obviously the stats aren't perfect. A good example is Fred's long pass success rate is 11% higher than Pogba. Obviously that's because Pogba's long passes are likely longer and certainly into more dangerous positions. However unless you think Fred is the only player in that list who plays his long passes backwards and sideways to completely open players while every other player there is playing balls over the top, it it shows that Fred is at least as adventurous with his passing as most others in his position.
Are you trolling? In the post I quoted you said 99% of his passes are short and sideways. I've seen others make similar claims as well.
Ultimately it comes down to this. Anybody claiming he's a great passer or even a particularly good passer is talking absolute rubbish. Equally, anybody claiming he's atrocious and terrible passer is also talking absolute rubbish. You happen to be fit one of those categories. In reality he's a decent passer, someone who could certainly be improved on but not particularly easily.
Yes.
I rate a players passing by their ability to consistently complete difficult passes. Pass completion rate is largely irrelevant some players regularly play brilliant passes that their teammates just can't get on the end of or the opposition defender does well to cut out. Yet those go down as failed passes according to stats.
Se my post above in reply to @MadDogg i'm not a fan of using stats to judge a players passing ability.
I actually agree with that, but they'd have to show it consistently and honestly I'd be surprised if they did. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
Maybe it was poorly worded but i said most of his passes are short and sideways. As in most of his passes are short passes or sideways passes.
No he's a terrible passer for me. I think anyone claiming he's a decent passer is talking rubbish, so there.
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