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Nah I don't agree with that. People here didn't know Fred because they didn't watch the Ukrainian league, not because he was a worse player that all of a sudden became good. If I recall, before we signed him he was being scouted by both Pep at City and Barcelona as well. If a player at 24 hasn't shown a good level of talent in a few key areas like passing ability and the usefulness of their passing, I seriously doubt they ever will. McTominay hasn't been a creative player ever at any level, he's not a progressive passer, has never shown the ability to do so, has never showed a great level of technique or anything, so why would he all of a sudden pop up with these attributes after 24? He's not some young player with raw attributes. That would be someone like Garner who has shown the ability on the ball and good passing, both short and long range and incisive passing that you hope he can step up and show it at a big club too.
What I'm saying is that Fred showed his talent at Shakhtar, he hasn't been able to translate is as well or as consistently in the prem, but it doesn't mean that he was a nothing player. Players will still show their levels of talent by a certain age and then build off it. We already know what McTominay is, and he doesn't provide much in the way of passing which is what our midfield needs. So I have no problem writing him off for ever being anything more than a squad player. 24 should be the start of a players prime, but regardless they should have shown their talents long before that.
Which no one was doing.Always a solid basis for mind reading
Do you think everyone extensively studies a players stats when forming an opinion on them?
Everyone rates or doesn't rate every player based on preferences and/or favouritism to some degree, either consciously or subconsciously.
Let's move on as this is turning into a Fred vs Mctominay discussion which wasn't never my point, and to be honest I don't remember even seeing anyone say they think McTominay is better in here. My point again was you can't judge someones entire understanding of football based on their opinion on one player. I don't think that's an outrageous statement that warrant's an in depth off topic discussion.
He definitely does, the opposite is also true though. These performance threads often lead to that sort of thing, players get unfairly criticized and fan boys jump to their defence, back and forth arguments ensue. Fast forward 2-3 years opinions continue to polarize with some underrating a player and others vastly overrating the same player. It gets to the point where anyone who hasn't seen that player play they could be forgiven for assuming the player in question is either a pub player who can't trap a ball or an elite world class monster and one of the best in his position going off their performance thread.
No but those stats are very evidently on show on the pitch, which is why I said 'almost objectively'. It's not like it's a close call in their comparative ability/performances, in which case I could understand 'preference' but otherwise, yes I think it's fair game to question someone's understand of football, if they're going to have a very 'wrong' judgement imo. As for the people, who rate McTominay, there's more there are a few even in this thread but I'm not going to bother to look them up.
To provide a different perspective, I prefer McTominay to Fred for a variety of reasons;
Basically I see Fred as an incredibly limited player. I will admit I havent been following the Copa America, but based on his club appearances (which is more valid anyway, frankly), all Fred offers is a general water carrier role. He isnt good on the ball, he isnt good at passing*, he doesnt really provide any attacking threat, and he is prone to defensive errors which have led to goals or big chances for the opponent multiple times. I think McTominay offers a lot that Fred cant, not the other way round. McTominay also has a much higher ceiling, both in terms of potential and in terms of performance level.
- Age - McTominay is young enough to continue to develop and improve. Fred, at 28 and with a very workhorse-like skillset, is only likely to decline from this point.
- Homegrown. Sentimentality aside (although I dont see that as a problem either), McTominay counts towards the HG quotas.
- Physicality. McTominay is an aerial threat as well as good for defending set pieces. Fred is not.
- Versatility - McTominay can cover at CB. He plays RCB for Scotland. He has also played as a dedicated 6 as well as an 8. Fred cant really play anywhere or any other role than the one we see him in.
- Skillset. Im surprised seeing people claim that Fred offers more than McTominay. From watching our games this season, McTominay strikes me as offering far more in the attacking third. As well as the obvious metric of goals scored, McTominay is great at driving forward with the ball, like a poor-man's Yaya Toure at times.
I think that either Fred or McTominay would look much better alongside a proper playmaker. Fred has currently got that playing next to Casemiro, so it doesnt surprise me if he is looking better for Brazil than he did for United this season. I suspect if you put McTominay into that role instead, he would equally look great.
*Passing is an interesting one because I have seen the stats and those claiming that Fred is a better passer than McT. I disagree and I dont think the stats paint an accurate picture here, because passing is not a binary thing - its actually a lot more complex than just looking at a pass completion %. You can play a crap pass which leads to the receiver being under massive pressure. You can play a pass to feet/behind a runner rather than into their path, slowing down the attack and losing momentum. Fred is often guilty of these things, but just because the receiver got the ball, it still counts as a completed pass. I remember being so frustrated at Fred throughout the season where his simple passes were constantly being overhit/underhit - still completed passes, but shit ones that are detrimental to the team.
Not sure how stats show on a pitch to be fair, that's an interesting concept.
Obviously still disagree with the second bolded part. To the point where I find it hard to wrap my head around this idea of making a judgement (assumption basically) on someones entire knowledge of the game of football based on their opinion of one player just because it clashes with your own opinion of said player. Doesn't matter about every other opinion they have on football, how long they have been watching or how knowledgeable they may actually be on the game. No share an opinion on a player that I don't agree with and I'll assume that you understand little about the game. Almost comes across a little arrogant if I'm being honest, especially in this case as while I think Fred is a better player right now there isn't a huge gulf between him and McTominay.
Well, while Shaw and Maguire get plenty of praise and credits for their performances with England, Fred who has been doing the same for Brazil keeps flying under the radar.Not mentioned but he's playing well for Brazil alongside Casemiro while keeping Fabinho out in the process.
Kind of need to keep that clear on here
Would love to see what UtdArena did as I'm a big fan of his use of stats, though I can't view Twitter anymore. You should separate Fred and McTominay in that McFred too, because I think it's clouded your judgement a bit in that post.Both of our guys do a pretty bad job on the ball at dictating the tempo to how we ideally want to play, as well as progressing it up the pitch. Maguire, Shaw do all the progression for us with passing, while McFred also force Bruno to come deeper and build up from deeper positions compared to when he plays with Pogba in midfield (UtdArena on Twitter did an analysis on this ages ago).
As for the judgement, yes anybody's understanding of the game is fair for critique regardless of whether they rate McToiminay over Fred but probably more so if that is the case because there is a clear gap between them two imo. Also I have repeatedly used the words 'question' and added that someone with the above preference should be adding more context, which can then be explored. Not sure why you're so fixated as if I've made a definitive statement against said people.
Not mentioned but he's playing well for Brazil alongside Casemiro while keeping Fabinho out in the process.
Kind of need to keep that clear on here
That's my point, nobody had heard of Fred when he was McTominay's age. Given where he was at 24 very few if any would have predicted he'd be at a top club in a few years.
So does it make sense at this point to say McTominay definitely won't make it?
24 compared to 28 is a pretty crucial age gap for a CM.
I'm not saying give McTominay forever but I'd bet he's looking better than Fred was at 24.
Not sure how stats show on a pitch to be fair, that's an interesting concept.
Obviously still disagree with the second bolded part. To the point where I find it hard to wrap my head around this idea of making a judgement (assumption basically) on someones entire knowledge of the game of football based on their opinion of one player just because it clashes with your own opinion of said player. Doesn't matter about every other opinion they have on football, how long they have been watching or how knowledgeable they may actually be on the game. No share an opinion on a player that I don't agree with and I'll assume that you understand little about the game. Almost comes across a little arrogant if I'm being honest, especially in this case as while I think Fred is a better player right now there isn't a huge gulf between him and McTominay.
If a defensive midfield bosses the pitch but someone says he's useless it's a fair judgement to at least make this person can't really read that part of football.
What role has he been playing for Brazil? The box to box role?Not mentioned but he's playing well for Brazil alongside Casemiro while keeping Fabinho out in the process.
Kind of need to keep that clear on here
Yep, hes been covering the ground while Casemiro has been mopping up behind him. He and Neymar reportedly get on very well so that may play into itWhat role has he been playing for Brazil? The box to box role?
Who is this defensive midfielder who bosses the pitch?
And who said he was useless?
I'm genuinely interested because that's not even remotely close to what was being discussed mate. The discussion was about claiming someone doesn't understand football (or at least questioning their understanding) if they happen to rate one player over another.
Yep, hes been covering the ground while Casemiro has been mopping up behind him. He and Neymar reportedly get on very well so that may play into it
The issue is that three of your five points don't actually make any difference on the field at the moment. Age, homegrown and ability to play CB (it's a decent option to have but we never really use it). McTominay is stronger, better in the air, and is a decent goal threat for a midfielder. Three things which are definitely nice bonuses to have, but that's all they are - bonuses. I consider the most important job of the midfield is to give the team control of the game (perhaps you feel otherwise), and Scott is fairly average or even poor in pretty much all the important aspects.To provide a different perspective, I prefer McTominay to Fred for a variety of reasons;
*Passing is an interesting one because I have seen the stats and those claiming that Fred is a better passer than McT. I disagree and I dont think the stats paint an accurate picture here, because passing is not a binary thing - its actually a lot more complex than just looking at a pass completion %. You can play a crap pass which leads to the receiver being under massive pressure. You can play a pass to feet/behind a runner rather than into their path, slowing down the attack and losing momentum. Fred is often guilty of these things, but just because the receiver got the ball, it still counts as a completed pass. I remember being so frustrated at Fred throughout the season where his simple passes were constantly being overhit/underhit - still completed passes, but shit ones that are detrimental to the team.
- Age - McTominay is young enough to continue to develop and improve. Fred, at 28 and with a very workhorse-like skillset, is only likely to decline from this point.
- Homegrown. Sentimentality aside (although I dont see that as a problem either), McTominay counts towards the HG quotas.
- Physicality. McTominay is an aerial threat as well as good for defending set pieces. Fred is not.
- Versatility - McTominay can cover at CB. He plays RCB for Scotland. He has also played as a dedicated 6 as well as an 8. Fred cant really play anywhere or any other role than the one we see him in.
- Skillset. Im surprised seeing people claim that Fred offers more than McTominay. From watching our games this season, McTominay strikes me as offering far more in the attacking third. As well as the obvious metric of goals scored, McTominay is great at driving forward with the ball, like a poor-man's Yaya Toure at times.
Pretty sure he's talking about the tweet showing that Bruno receives the ball more often and in better positions when he plays with Pogba+Matic in a combo than when he plays with Fred+McTominay in a combo. However once he dug further into it and separated the four players, the difference was really Pogba vs McTominay. Fred and Matic were about the same, while Pogba was a fair bit better (to be expected) and McTominay was a fair bit worse (also to be expected).Would love to see what UtdArena did as I'm a big fan of his use of stats, though I can't view Twitter anymore. You should separate Fred and McTominay in that McFred too, because I think it's clouded your judgement a bit in that post.
The issue is that three of your five points don't actually make any difference on the field at the moment. Age, homegrown and ability to play CB (it's a decent option to have but we never really use it). McTominay is stronger, better in the air, and is a decent goal threat for a midfielder. Three things which are definitely nice bonuses to have, but that's all they are - bonuses. I consider the most important job of the midfield is to give the team control of the game (perhaps you feel otherwise), and Scott is fairly average or even poor in pretty much all the important aspects.
These four aspects, alongside protecting the backline in deeper areas where I'd rate them about the same, are probably the most important things for a midfielder to provide IMO. Think of all the top deeper midfielders over the years and they'll almost all be great at three or four of those five things. Maybe the more limited ones will be absolutely amazing at one or two of them.
- Making themselves available to receive the ball. McTominay is downright poor at this, constantly hiding (I don't think it's deliberate but it has the same result) behind opposition players so that he is impossible to pass to. There's a reason he gets on the ball about 20% less than any of our other three midfielders and sometimes has games where he is basically invisible. He just doesn't provide our players an option to pass to which makes it more difficult for us to build anything. Meanwhile Fred is constantly moving around offering himself as an option.
- Passing. Fred isn't a great passer, and you do touch on a fair criticism that some of his 'completed passes' did actually make it difficult on the recipient. But Fred not only makes more passes, he makes more creative and attacking passes that get us into dangerous positions and creates more chances, makes more longer passes, and he is also more likely to push us forward when we are building the play out from the back. Overall he's attempting to do a lot more with his passes than McTominay does, who (other than the occasional nice diagonal ball to the left wing) tends to play it more safe and basic.
- Setting the tempo. It wasn't as obvious towards the end of the season as Fred was struggling for form, but normally he is very important for us at speeding up the tempo. Without him we constantly look very pedestrian, just playing it around slowly when we have the ball and sitting off and letting the opposition play when they have it. Fred tends to inject that bit of drive and speed particularly defensively, but also trying to play the ball quickly up through the middle of the park to Bruno when he gets into that bit of space between the opposition midfield and defence. Once again I wouldn't necessarily say he's particularly good at the latter, but he's better than Scott.
- Pressing and winning the ball back quickly. This is becoming increasingly important in todays game, with almost all top teams trying to harry the opposition and quickly win the ball back high up the pitch. Obviously Fred is one of the best around at this. Scott does have the occasional game where he does it well (normally in a big game - PSG comes to mind), but otherwise he's surprisingly average/poor. He tends to stand off and let the opposition play to their own tempo too much.
McTominay does have the occasional two or three games a year where he does step up and show a lot more. Particularly with (as you mentioned) driving forward with the ball and also playing more attacking passes. It seems like he basically decides in those games to force the issue and make things happen himself. If he starts having those games more regularly than maybe things will change (although he would still definitely need somebody next to him acting as the main playmaker), but for now in the majority of the games he's simply not providing enough. Taking those five important aspects that I listed above, there's none that he's even above average.
It was a hypothetical example. IF someone takes on of carricks top midfield performances and talks about how he was bang average compared to Shaqiri in midfield based on some of his tricks its a fair assessment that person doesn't understand football.
Exactly what I thought. This tendency to associate Fred with McTominay basically due to the amount of times they have played together for us is what hurts Fred's reputation. It is really Fred doing most of the work in midfield and Mctominay doing a terrible job at supporting him. I'm sure Fred will be able to perform so much better when he doesn't have to play with McTominay consistently.Pretty sure he's talking about the tweet showing that Bruno receives the ball more often and in better positions when he plays with Pogba+Matic in a combo than when he plays with Fred+McTominay in a combo. However once he dug further into it and separated the four players, the difference was really Pogba vs McTominay. Fred and Matic were about the same, while Pogba was a fair bit better (to be expected) and McTominay was a fair bit worse (also to be expected).
So.. We just need a top DM to unleash him?Yep, hes been covering the ground while Casemiro has been mopping up behind him. He and Neymar reportedly get on very well so that may play into it
Exactly what I thought. This tendency to associate Fred with McTominay basically due to the amount of times they have played together for us is what hurts Fred's reputation. It is really Fred doing most of the work in midfield and Mctominay doing a terrible job at supporting him. I'm sure Fred will be able to perform so much better when he doesn't have to play with McTominay consistently.
The issue is that three of your five points don't actually make any difference on the field at the moment. Age, homegrown and ability to play CB (it's a decent option to have but we never really use it). McTominay is stronger, better in the air, and is a decent goal threat for a midfielder. Three things which are definitely nice bonuses to have, but that's all they are - bonuses. I consider the most important job of the midfield is to give the team control of the game (perhaps you feel otherwise), and Scott is fairly average or even poor in pretty much all the important aspects.
These four aspects, alongside protecting the backline in deeper areas where I'd rate them about the same, are probably the most important things for a midfielder to provide IMO. Think of all the top deeper midfielders over the years and they'll almost all be great at three or four of those five things. Maybe the more limited ones will be absolutely amazing at one or two of them.
- Making themselves available to receive the ball. McTominay is downright poor at this, constantly hiding (I don't think it's deliberate but it has the same result) behind opposition players so that he is impossible to pass to. There's a reason he gets on the ball about 20% less than any of our other three midfielders and sometimes has games where he is basically invisible. He just doesn't provide our players an option to pass to which makes it more difficult for us to build anything. Meanwhile Fred is constantly moving around offering himself as an option.
- Passing. Fred isn't a great passer, and you do touch on a fair criticism that some of his 'completed passes' did actually make it difficult on the recipient. But Fred not only makes more passes, he makes more creative and attacking passes that get us into dangerous positions and creates more chances, makes more longer passes, and he is also more likely to push us forward when we are building the play out from the back. Overall he's attempting to do a lot more with his passes than McTominay does, who (other than the occasional nice diagonal ball to the left wing) tends to play it more safe and basic.
- Setting the tempo. It wasn't as obvious towards the end of the season as Fred was struggling for form, but normally he is very important for us at speeding up the tempo. Without him we constantly look very pedestrian, just playing it around slowly when we have the ball and sitting off and letting the opposition play when they have it. Fred tends to inject that bit of drive and speed particularly defensively, but also trying to play the ball quickly up through the middle of the park to Bruno when he gets into that bit of space between the opposition midfield and defence. Once again I wouldn't necessarily say he's particularly good at the latter, but he's better than Scott.
- Pressing and winning the ball back quickly. This is becoming increasingly important in todays game, with almost all top teams trying to harry the opposition and quickly win the ball back high up the pitch. Obviously Fred is one of the best around at this. Scott does have the occasional game where he does it well (normally in a big game - PSG comes to mind), but otherwise he's surprisingly average/poor. He tends to stand off and let the opposition play to their own tempo too much.
McTominay does have the occasional two or three games a year where he does step up and show a lot more. Particularly with (as you mentioned) driving forward with the ball and also playing more attacking passes. It seems like he basically decides in those games to force the issue and make things happen himself. If he starts having those games more regularly than maybe things will change (although he would still definitely need somebody next to him acting as the main playmaker), but for now in the majority of the games he's simply not providing enough. Taking those five important aspects that I listed above, there's none that he's even above average.
Exactly what I thought. This tendency to associate Fred with McTominay basically due to the amount of times they have played together for us is what hurts Fred's reputation. It is really Fred doing most of the work in midfield and Mctominay doing a terrible job at supporting him. I'm sure Fred will be able to perform so much better when he doesn't have to play with McTominay consistently.
Mctominay's strengths around the opposition's box has never been in doubt, and a midfieder more capable than Fred at holding his own in defence might help him in that aspect, but it isn't going to change much in terms of what he brings to the actual midfied play. On the contrary, I think it increases the chances of his below par contributions in midfied being exposed depending on who the DM is.McTominay much like Fred isn't a natural DM, he plays most games beside Fred. They're both asked to play deep but of the two McTominay obviously plays the more conservative and sits back as it makes sense for Fred to play further forward. So it's only natural that McTominay struggles in that role.
Outside of games against top sides where we would be sitting deep, asking them both to break up play and win the ball back to hit teams on the counter. I don't think they make a good combination.
So as much as I agree that Mctominay doesn't compliment Fred and is holding him back. The opposite is also true, I think Scott would perform at a higher level with a top DM behind him.
At least you can tell a bad poster from a good one and can safely decide whose posts are worth your time reading. Saying McFred is the same like putting Maguire in the same sentence with Lindelof. Of course McFred is not good enough because we need to massively upgrade on McTominay. If we are to upgrade on Fred himself eventually it will have to be a really superb player but so far he's the only type of player out of all midfielders who is keeping it together and is essential for our progressive play. Some people will be shocked when they finally see a proper midfielder next to Fred how much better we are and defensively too because even that McT can't provide being so slow to close down spaces, press and still very bad positioning wise.Good summary again. I remember you did a thread breaking down Fred's stats, which show how favourably he compares in most important metrics to every other midfielder.
It's still incredibly people lump them two together or claim the gap isn't that wide. It absolutely is.
Amazin
That's an interesting opinion. Would you play McT ahead of Fred in that b2b role, or is it just something that we could try if absolutely necessary?McTominay much like Fred isn't a natural DM, he plays most games beside Fred. They're both asked to play deep but of the two McTominay obviously plays the more conservative and sits back as it makes sense for Fred to play further forward. So it's only natural that McTominay struggles in that role.
Outside of games against top sides where we would be sitting deep, asking them both to break up play and win the ball back to hit teams on the counter. I don't think they make a good combination.
So as much as I agree that Mctominay doesn't compliment Fred and is holding him back. The opposite is also true, I think Scott would perform at a higher level with a top DM behind him.
That's an interesting opinion. Would you play McT ahead of Fred in that b2b role, or is it just something that we could try if absolutely necessary?
McTominay in my eyes is a makeshift central midfielder. He supports Fred well with his work rate and is quite strong, but doesn't really fit midfield role.
Of course any player would play better if his partner was improved upon. The difference is we see it for Fred for NT, while Scotland uses McTominay mostly in back 3 (as far as I've seen) which is where he fits most imo.
Mctominay's strengths around the opposition's box has never been in doubt, and a midfieder more capable than Fred at holding his own in defence might help him in that aspect, but it isn't going to change much in terms of what he brings to the actual midfied play. On the contrary, I think it increases the chances of his below par contributions in midfied being exposed depending on who the DM is.
The midfieders in a midfied two has to work as a pair. Fred carries McTominay in that midfield, doing more defensive work, and also far more on the ball - in ball retention and ball progression. If Fred is replaced with a better defender that doesn't offer as much with the ball as Fred does, then McTominay would have to take more responsibility on the ball, which he's proven to be incapable of, but this time, with no Fred to cover and do the job for him, and for the team.
I also don't think Fred plays that much further forward than McTominay in our team, and I don't think McTominay plays more conservative than Fred by design. He just doesn't have Fred's range, excels when there is more space, and is happy to pass up responsibility with the ball. Pairing him with another DM won't change much of what he brings in terms of actual midfield play. He doesn't do much next to Fred, he still wouldn't do much next to another midfieders that isn't Fred.
The issue is that three of your five points don't actually make any difference on the field at the moment. Age, homegrown and ability to play CB (it's a decent option to have but we never really use it). McTominay is stronger, better in the air, and is a decent goal threat for a midfielder. Three things which are definitely nice bonuses to have, but that's all they are - bonuses. I consider the most important job of the midfield is to give the team control of the game (perhaps you feel otherwise), and Scott is fairly average or even poor in pretty much all the important aspects.
These four aspects, alongside protecting the backline in deeper areas where I'd rate them about the same, are probably the most important things for a midfielder to provide IMO. Think of all the top deeper midfielders over the years and they'll almost all be great at three or four of those five things. Maybe the more limited ones will be absolutely amazing at one or two of them.
- Making themselves available to receive the ball. McTominay is downright poor at this, constantly hiding (I don't think it's deliberate but it has the same result) behind opposition players so that he is impossible to pass to. There's a reason he gets on the ball about 20% less than any of our other three midfielders and sometimes has games where he is basically invisible. He just doesn't provide our players an option to pass to which makes it more difficult for us to build anything. Meanwhile Fred is constantly moving around offering himself as an option.
- Passing. Fred isn't a great passer, and you do touch on a fair criticism that some of his 'completed passes' did actually make it difficult on the recipient. But Fred not only makes more passes, he makes more creative and attacking passes that get us into dangerous positions and creates more chances, makes more longer passes, and he is also more likely to push us forward when we are building the play out from the back. Overall he's attempting to do a lot more with his passes than McTominay does, who (other than the occasional nice diagonal ball to the left wing) tends to play it more safe and basic.
- Setting the tempo. It wasn't as obvious towards the end of the season as Fred was struggling for form, but normally he is very important for us at speeding up the tempo. Without him we constantly look very pedestrian, just playing it around slowly when we have the ball and sitting off and letting the opposition play when they have it. Fred tends to inject that bit of drive and speed particularly defensively, but also trying to play the ball quickly up through the middle of the park to Bruno when he gets into that bit of space between the opposition midfield and defence. Once again I wouldn't necessarily say he's particularly good at the latter, but he's better than Scott.
- Pressing and winning the ball back quickly. This is becoming increasingly important in todays game, with almost all top teams trying to harry the opposition and quickly win the ball back high up the pitch. Obviously Fred is one of the best around at this. Scott does have the occasional game where he does it well (normally in a big game - PSG comes to mind), but otherwise he's surprisingly average/poor. He tends to stand off and let the opposition play to their own tempo too much.
McTominay does have the occasional two or three games a year where he does step up and show a lot more. Particularly with (as you mentioned) driving forward with the ball and also playing more attacking passes. It seems like he basically decides in those games to force the issue and make things happen himself. If he starts having those games more regularly than maybe things will change (although he would still definitely need somebody next to him acting as the main playmaker), but for now in the majority of the games he's simply not providing enough. Taking those five important aspects that I listed above, there's none that he's even above average.
