[stevoc]

Of course it's a slippery slope to use stats to 'objectively' compare players but in this case, Fred's contributions in pretty much everything except goals pretty much obliterates McTominay. It's especially true if you value what a midfielder should be doing on and off the ball respective of their position.

I can understand preferences and favouritism but I think if someone is rating them with this bias, then yes I think it's fair game to question their judgement. You can have your favourite but that should be separate to rating based on ability and performance. Of course this happens with all the players as evident in the performance threads but some need calling out more than others. Lindelof is one, who has fan boys and perhaps Fred, who imo receives a bit unfair criticism.

As for the bolded bit that's a different scenario as you're talking about rating potential and predicting/hoping for improvement. In this case, I would do a double take if anyone said 'McTominay is a better midfielder than Fred'. Has he got the potential? Yes, of course he can, as players can improve all the time but that's not the issue here. If someone said 'I prefer McTominay because he's really good at running with the ball, has that running/attacking power and I feel we should utilise his strengths more compared to Fred, who is an all-arounder busy bee' fair enough.

Do you think everyone extensively studies a players stats when forming an opinion on them?

Everyone rates or doesn't rate every player based on preferences and/or favouritism to some degree, either consciously or subconsciously.

Let's move on as this is turning into a Fred vs Mctominay discussion which wasn't never my point, and to be honest I don't remember even seeing anyone say they think McTominay is better in here. My point again was you can't judge someones entire understanding of football based on their opinion on one player. I don't think that's an outrageous statement that warrant's an in depth off topic discussion.

Lindelof is one, who has fan boys and perhaps Fred, who imo receives a bit unfair criticism.

He definitely does, the opposite is also true though. These performance threads often lead to that sort of thing, players get unfairly criticized and fan boys jump to their defence, back and forth arguments ensue. Fast forward 2-3 years opinions continue to polarize with some underrating a player and others vastly overrating the same player. It gets to the point where anyone who hasn't seen that player play they could be forgiven for assuming the player in question is either a pub player who can't trap a ball or an elite world class monster and one of the best in his position going off their performance thread.

 

[Kostov]

At least now only half of your statement is factually incorrect.

Let me guess, Fred is just as good?

 

[Adam-Utd]

Tearing it up

This is why people get silly opinions on players. You could make a quick clip like that on literally any player if you have an agenda.

I wonder how many times Neymar fails a trick through a game or loses the ball? you could probably count 10 times.

Then you get people wanting to replace him with Declan Rice

 

[AjaxCunian]

This is why people get silly opinions on players. You could make a quick clip like that on literally any player if you have an agenda.

I wonder how many times Neymar fails a trick through a game or loses the ball? you could probably count 10 times.

Then you get people wanting to replace him with Declan Rice

This isn't just really faily a trick or losing the ball, it looks silly. However, players do silly things all the time.

 

[Adam-Utd]

This isn't just really faily a trick or losing the ball, it looks silly. However, players do silly things all the time.

He tried a back heel and it didn't come off. Hardly a need to make a video to mock him is there.

Our own fans are the worst, do stupid shit like this then wonder why everybody plays like boring robots.

 

[romufc]

This is why people get silly opinions on players. You could make a quick clip like that on literally any player if you have an agenda.

I wonder how many times Neymar fails a trick through a game or loses the ball? you could probably count 10 times.

Then you get people wanting to replace him with Declan Rice

This is what you get from Manutd fans. Alot of them have agenda's against certain players, pick out mistakes made and post it as if that is the only thing the player does.

Its actually quite frustrating as a United fan.

 

[AjaxCunian]

He tried a back heel and it didn't come off. Hardly a need to make a video to mock him is there.

Our own fans are the worst, do stupid shit like this then wonder why everybody plays like boring robots.

That's one way to put, however that back heel was never going to come off as the only player available for it was straight in front of him. It just looked like he wanted to have some fun after seeing Neymar and Paqueta, and played a quite silly backheel because of it. That's what makes it silly.

And it also has nothing to do with robots really.

 

[Adam-Utd]

This is what you get from Manutd fans. Alot of them have agenda's against certain players, pick out mistakes made and post it as if that is the only thing the player does.

Its actually quite frustrating as a United fan.

Agreed. Don't know if other fanbases are the same but we seem to have on our players even more than opposition.

That's one way to put, however that back heel was never going to come off as the only player available for it was straight in front of him. It just looked like he wanted to have some fun after seeing Neymar and Paqueta, and played a quite silly backheel because of it. That's what makes it silly.

And it also has nothing to do with robots really.

You think when our players see our own fans laughing at them on social media, they will feel confident and want to play with freedom?. This will just make them play safe and pass sideways, no tricks, no fun.

Then our fans will wonder why our football is so boring

 

[romufc]

Agreed. Don't know if other fanbases are the same but we seem to have on our players even more than opposition.

You think when our players see our own fans laughing at them on social media, they will feel confident and want to play with freedom?. This will just make them play safe and pass sideways, no tricks, no fun.

Then our fans will wonder why our football is so boring

Its basically our fan base. We end up overrating other players too.

The funny thing, it is clearly agendas against players.

People criticise Bruno for pass accuracy because he tries too many difficult passes, forces the play. The same people will also criticise Fred / McTominay for playing it safe. Where is the logic?

 

[Ekeke]

He tried a back heel and it didn't come off. Hardly a need to make a video to mock him is there.

Our own fans are the worst, do stupid shit like this then wonder why everybody plays like boring robots.

Normally your DM isnt trying to keep up with the flair players and messing up. He's keeping it simple and giving it to the players who get that right a lot

 

[Adam-Utd]

Normally your DM isnt trying to keep up with the flair players and messing up. He's keeping it simple and giving it to the players who get that right a lot

Fred isn't playing as a DM for Brazil is he, clearly in that clip Paqueta has dropped deeper so Fred has used his brain and rotated.

Where is the issue with trying stuff near their box?

 

[FrankDrebin]

He tried a backheel and it didnt come off, is that it ?

 

[Ali Dia]

My dude

“Why Fred is overshadowing Fabinho for Brazil”

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...zil-manchester-united-fred-mctominay-20980812

 

[Lewnited]

Tearing it up

Are we really doing this for our own players now? Low effort posts highlighting a single error in a single match in an international tournament?

 

[roonster09]

He tried a backheel and it didnt come off, is that it ?

Yeah, apparently it's forbidden.

 

[Kostov]

This is why people get silly opinions on players. You could make a quick clip like that on literally any player if you have an agenda.

I wonder how many times Neymar fails a trick through a game or loses the ball? you could probably count 10 times.

Then you get people wanting to replace him with Declan Rice

Why is it laughable for people to want to replace Fred with Rice?

 

[Kostov]

This is what you get from Manutd fans. Alot of them have agenda's against certain players, pick out mistakes made and post it as if that is the only thing the player does.

Its actually quite frustrating as a United fan.

While there are fans who act like that, let's not try and make it a one way street here. Lots of the criticism and assessment of Fred is also objective and United fans have every right to demand he being upgraded. There are also lots of lunatics on here claiming how he was as good as Kante or how he was worth the 50m pounds we paid for him.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

He was inconsistent last season. If we were coming off the 2019/2020 season and people were criticising him then I would jump to his defense. Hes having a good copa though so I hope that inconsistency last season was more due to fatigue. He's a starter when on form

 

[Adam-Utd]

Why is it laughable for people to want to replace Fred with Rice?

Because Rice isn't fit to lace his boots

 

[Kostov]

Because Rice isn't fit to lace his boots

That's one hell of a joke

 

[Mcking]

Why is it laughable for people to want to replace Fred with Rice?

Was laughable when people wanted to replace Shaw with Brandon Williams too. Rice isn't replacing Fred anyway.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I feel like Fred and McTominay are eachothers worst enemy.

Both would be at their best as the "runner" next to a sitting midfielder. Playing together just doesn't offer enough, I feel it would be better if they both were fighting for one CM position than next to each other.

 

[bosnian_red]

I feel like Fred and McTominay are eachothers worst enemy.

Both would be at their best as the "runner" next to a sitting midfielder. Playing together just doesn't offer enough, I feel it would be better if they both were fighting for one CM position than next to each other.

Feed still provides a whole lot more than McTominay though. Fred has certain qualities that big clubs would still really like having, and is a far better passer and much better with his pressing. Definitely needs someone to sit next to him with good progressive passing (Jorginho type IMO), but he has qualities that a big team would be fine with him starting. McTominay in no way would ever be a set starter for a big club, just doesn't offer enough on the ball and doesn't necessarily make a team very solid.

 

[Member 58925]

Let me guess, Fred is just as good?

Lord give me patience no, Fred is not as good as Kante, but he does break up play at a high level and that’s not an opinion.

 

[Member 58925]

That's one way to put, however that back heel was never going to come off as the only player available for it was straight in front of him. It just looked like he wanted to have some fun after seeing Neymar and Paqueta, and played a quite silly backheel because of it. That's what makes it silly.

And it also has nothing to do with robots really.

Did you ask him that’s why he attempted the back heel or are you just a world renowned psychologist?

 

[Marwood]

Feed still provides a whole lot more than McTominay though. Fred has certain qualities that big clubs would still really like having, and is a far better passer and much better with his pressing. Definitely needs someone to sit next to him with good progressive passing (Jorginho type IMO), but he has qualities that a big team would be fine with him starting. McTominay in no way would ever be a set starter for a big club, just doesn't offer enough on the ball and doesn't necessarily make a team very solid.

The caveat at I'd throw in is that at McTominay's age Fred has played about 60 games in the Ukranian league. Do you think at 24, after those 60 games, you'd have predicted Fred would be in midfield for a big club?

I think McTominay has shown enough to warrant a bit more time to develop. Not loads more but another season I'd say.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Agreed. Don't know if other fanbases are the same but we seem to have on our players even more than opposition.

You think when our players see our own fans laughing at them on social media, they will feel confident and want to play with freedom?. This will just make them play safe and pass sideways, no tricks, no fun.

Then our fans will wonder why our football is so boring

No I watch a lot of United and don't think our players play with any less tricks or fun than others to be honest..

Did you ask him that’s why he attempted the back heel or are you just a world renowned psychologist?

"It looked like".

 

[Member 58925]

No I watch a lot of United and don't think our players play with any less tricks or fun than others to be honest..


"It looked like".

Always a solid basis for mind reading

 

[laughtersassassin]

Feed still provides a whole lot more than McTominay though. Fred has certain qualities that big clubs would still really like having, and is a far better passer and much better with his pressing. Definitely needs someone to sit next to him with good progressive passing (Jorginho type IMO), but he has qualities that a big team would be fine with him starting. McTominay in no way would ever be a set starter for a big club, just doesn't offer enough on the ball and doesn't necessarily make a team very solid.

He does offer more overall. Though I would say neither are good enough to start week in week out for a top team.

The fact we play them both together is even worse

 

[Ekeke]

Fred isn't playing as a DM for Brazil is he, clearly in that clip Paqueta has dropped deeper so Fred has used his brain and rotated.

Where is the issue with trying stuff near their box?

Isnt he?

Nothing wrong with attackers trying things near the opponent's box. Something wrong with players in the team to defend and stop counter attacks and not known for silky skills trying stuff on the edge of the opponent's box. I dont remember Roy Keane doing that

 

[Adam-Utd]

Isnt he?

Nothing wrong with attackers trying things near the opponent's box. Something wrong with players in the team to defend and stop counter attacks and not known for silky skills trying stuff on the edge of the opponent's box. I dont remember Roy Keane doing that

Nope, he's playing next to Casemiro who is the DM, Fred is playing as a box to box.

I do remember Patrick Vieira doing it though

 

[Ekeke]

I feel like Fred and McTominay are eachothers worst enemy.

Both would be at their best as the "runner" next to a sitting midfielder. Playing together just doesn't offer enough, I feel it would be better if they both were fighting for one CM position than next to each other.

Kind of. But they also bring less in attack than a lot of other options for that player breaking from midfield. Not a problem if your wings and strikers are amazingly productive and never need creativity from the middle, but we dont have that. McTominay at least chips in with the goals. Thats why we get tempted to play Pogba there even though he's worth than both defensively, because he's so much better joining and providing for the attack.

My solution would be that Fred's best position would be on the left of a diamond. Run up and down, pressure, win the ball some, but theres a proper holding DM at the base and its not the end of the world if he supports attacks with his running but doesnt get many assists or goals because there's a bunch of people in front of him to give the ball to and let them do it.

McTominay I'm not so sure. Maybe he'd be best in a 4-4-2 as a general expectations midfielder

 

[Ekeke]

Nope, he's playing next to Casemiro who is the DM, Fred is playing as a box to box.

I do remember Patrick Vieira doing it though

They play 2 DMs like we do

 

[Walrus]

To provide a different perspective, I prefer McTominay to Fred for a variety of reasons;

• Age - McTominay is young enough to continue to develop and improve. Fred, at 28 and with a very workhorse-like skillset, is only likely to decline from this point.
• Homegrown. Sentimentality aside (although I dont see that as a problem either), McTominay counts towards the HG quotas.
• Physicality. McTominay is an aerial threat as well as good for defending set pieces. Fred is not.
• Versatility - McTominay can cover at CB. He plays RCB for Scotland. He has also played as a dedicated 6 as well as an 8. Fred cant really play anywhere or any other role than the one we see him in.
• Skillset. Im surprised seeing people claim that Fred offers more than McTominay. From watching our games this season, McTominay strikes me as offering far more in the attacking third. As well as the obvious metric of goals scored, McTominay is great at driving forward with the ball, like a poor-man's Yaya Toure at times.

Basically I see Fred as an incredibly limited player. I will admit I havent been following the Copa America, but based on his club appearances (which is more valid anyway, frankly), all Fred offers is a general water carrier role. He isnt good on the ball, he isnt good at passing*, he doesnt really provide any attacking threat, and he is prone to defensive errors which have led to goals or big chances for the opponent multiple times. I think McTominay offers a lot that Fred cant, not the other way round. McTominay also has a much higher ceiling, both in terms of potential and in terms of performance level.

I think that either Fred or McTominay would look much better alongside a proper playmaker. Fred has currently got that playing next to Casemiro, so it doesnt surprise me if he is looking better for Brazil than he did for United this season. I suspect if you put McTominay into that role instead, he would equally look great.


*Passing is an interesting one because I have seen the stats and those claiming that Fred is a better passer than McT. I disagree and I dont think the stats paint an accurate picture here, because passing is not a binary thing - its actually a lot more complex than just looking at a pass completion %. You can play a crap pass which leads to the receiver being under massive pressure. You can play a pass to feet/behind a runner rather than into their path, slowing down the attack and losing momentum. Fred is often guilty of these things, but just because the receiver got the ball, it still counts as a completed pass. I remember being so frustrated at Fred throughout the season where his simple passes were constantly being overhit/underhit - still completed passes, but shit ones that are detrimental to the team.

 

[bosnian_red]

The caveat at I'd throw in is that at McTominay's age Fred has played about 60 games in the Ukranian league. Do you think at 24, after those 60 games, you'd have predicted Fred would be in midfield for a big club?

I think McTominay has shown enough to warrant a bit more time to develop. Not loads more but another season I'd say.

Mctominay is fine as a squad player don't get me wrong! I like the guy and he has his big games. But he straight up isn't talented enough to ever be more. Fred showed talent, and his issue is the brain farts that happen more than anything. He's a good tight dribbler, but occasionally takes a heavy touch. He's a good passer of the ball and has shown some great link up play, but then makes braindead decisions or careless/sloppy passes. He's always very good with his pressing and it shows statistically (mctominay runs loads on the pitch and is hard to get past but doesn't come up all that well from a defensive POV looking at the stats). Fred's always had talent, but the biggest issue with him has always been the consistency in his every play, and all the mental aspects that are needed to play in midfield. I do still think with a good partner like Carrick that he would be very good and fine as a starter, whereas McTominay would still be a weak point.

 

[Marwood]

Mctominay is fine as a squad player don't get me wrong! I like the guy and he has his big games. But he straight up isn't talented enough to ever be more. Fred showed talent, and his issue is the brain farts that happen more than anything. He's a good tight dribbler, but occasionally takes a heavy touch. He's a good passer of the ball and has shown some great link up play, but then makes braindead decisions or careless/sloppy passes. He's always very good with his pressing and it shows statistically (mctominay runs loads on the pitch and is hard to get past but doesn't come up all that well from a defensive POV looking at the stats). Fred's always had talent, but the biggest issue with him has always been the consistency in his every play, and all the mental aspects that are needed to play in midfield. I do still think with a good partner like Carrick that he would be very good and fine as a starter, whereas McTominay would still be a weak point.

But my queation was four years ago, having played 60 games in Ukraine, would you have pegged Fred as a starter for one of the big clubs?

 

[bosnian_red]

Skillset. Im surprised seeing people claim that Fred offers more than McTominay. From watching our games this season, McTominay strikes me as offering far more in the attacking third. As well as the obvious metric of goals scored, McTominay is great at driving forward with the ball, like a poor-man's Yaya Toure at times.

For me in terms of skillset for a midfield 2 in a 4231, I genuinely don't care at all about goalscoring stats. Nice if they provide a little bonus like the occasional long shot goal or set piece threat, but not important. Leave it to the front 4 IMO and I care a lot more on their work on dictating the pace of the game and progressing the ball up to the difference making attackers quickly and efficiently, and then from a defensive POV protecting the back 4 and controlling the spaces so that the opposition can't play their game. That's what Modric does brilliantly, that's what Scholes did for us too, or carrick, or xavi, or other top midfielders.

Both of our guys do a pretty bad job on the ball at dictating the tempo to how we ideally want to play, as well as progressing it up the pitch. Maguire, Shaw do all the progression for us with passing, while McFred also force Bruno to come deeper and build up from deeper positions compared to when he plays with Pogba in midfield (UtdArena on Twitter did an analysis on this ages ago). The little bit of ball progression that comes from our midfield, tends to come from Fred though. Mctominay adds some carries but they're pretty ineffective and just ends up being a lay off to another player close to him or a slow switch against a set defence, rather than stretching defenders with good and incisive passes. Defensively, Fred at least actually has some excellent pressing statistics which everyone can see from watching too. He wins the ball back often for us, so I think he does enough in both ends to be able to actually have a role at a big team if he had the right partner. McTominay just doesn't do enough defensively for me though, at least not positionally. He gets stuck in of course, but there's more to football than that. He gets a decent amount of shots off, has some bursting runs through the middle that usually don't amount to much, provides good energy while being hard to dribble past and is good in the air, but he leaves a lot to be desired from an overall package in midfield IMO. Especially for a big club.

 

[bosnian_red]

But my queation was four years ago, having played 60 games in Ukraine, would you have pegged Fred as a starter for one of the big clubs?

I don't remember what his reputation was, I don't watch that league! Playing in a smaller league doesn't mean someone is worse. Sometimes it just depends on exposure, like with Bruno. It's not like McTominay is all of a sudden going to progress into a controlling midfielder with incisive passing or become a defensive midfielder who is excellent at understanding what spaces to cover. He's a high energy guy who doesn't provide much in the way of passing but also isn't good enough defensively to be the more reserved guy. He could go to a team like Everton and wouldn't ever stand out as a key player, he'd just be a useful high energy support player.

 

[Marwood]

I don't remember what his reputation was, I don't watch that league! Playing in a smaller league doesn't mean someone is worse. Sometimes it just depends on exposure, like with Bruno. It's not like McTominay is all of a sudden going to progress into a controlling midfielder with incisive passing or become a defensive midfielder who is excellent at understanding what spaces to cover. He's a high energy guy who doesn't provide much in the way of passing but also isn't good enough defensively to be the more reserved guy. He could go to a team like Everton and wouldn't ever stand out as a key player, he'd just be a useful high energy support player.

That's my point, nobody had heard of Fred when he was McTominay's age. Given where he was at 24 very few if any would have predicted he'd be at a top club in a few years.

So does it make sense at this point to say McTominay definitely won't make it?

24 compared to 28 is a pretty crucial age gap for a CM.

I'm not saying give McTominay forever but I'd bet he's looking better than Fred was at 24.

 

[bosnian_red]

That's my point, nobody had heard of Fred when he was McTominay's age. Given where he was at 24 very few if any would have predicted he'd be at a top club in a few years.

So does it make sense at this point to say McTominay definitely won't make it?

24 compared to 28 is a pretty crucial age gap for a CM.

I'm not saying give McTominay forever but I'd bet he's looking better than Fred was at 24.

Nah I don't agree with that. People here didn't know Fred because they didn't watch the Ukrainian league, not because he was a worse player that all of a sudden became good. If I recall, before we signed him he was being scouted by both Pep at City and Barcelona as well. If a player at 24 hasn't shown a good level of talent in a few key areas like passing ability and the usefulness of their passing, I seriously doubt they ever will. McTominay hasn't been a creative player ever at any level, he's not a progressive passer, has never shown the ability to do so, has never showed a great level of technique or anything, so why would he all of a sudden pop up with these attributes after 24? He's not some young player with raw attributes. That would be someone like Garner who has shown the ability on the ball and good passing, both short and long range and incisive passing that you hope he can step up and show it at a big club too.

What I'm saying is that Fred showed his talent at Shakhtar, he hasn't been able to translate is as well or as consistently in the prem, but it doesn't mean that he was a nothing player. Players will still show their levels of talent by a certain age and then build off it. We already know what McTominay is, and he doesn't provide much in the way of passing which is what our midfield needs. So I have no problem writing him off for ever being anything more than a squad player. 24 should be the start of a players prime, but regardless they should have shown their talents long before that.