Freedom of religion should mean that nobody is prevented from attending their own church in their own time. Anything more is an unacceptable merging of church and state.
Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful
- Thread starter GaryLifo
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Freedom of religion should mean that nobody is prevented from attending their own church in their own time. Anything more is an unacceptable merging of church and state.
If you're entering a country you have to respect its laws unless you want to be behind bars. Whatever those laws may be. It's moronic to do otherwise. So that statement is perfectly fine.
Of course I haven't, hence my question.
Based on your answer, I don't think there is any answer the Qatari government can give that would satisfy LGBT fans completely.
If these ancent people not going to change a bit what is the point hold a WC there?
It would be counter productive but you do you I guess.
Its a largely homogeneous state where everybody pretty much follows the same religion, so not like the US and UK for example. So to them it does not impinge basic human rights. Now this is not to say Muslims don’t drink (one of my fraternity brothers was from Pakistan and the kid could drink anybody under the table) or are part of the LGBTQ community, but broadly speaking most people there are like minded on such issues.
You don't have to respect their laws. You just have to not break them. It's not the same thing.
I don't think they care about people muttering to themselves quietly in the corner.
It's nothing to do with that. It's about the nefarious way they get people like you to use the word 'respect' for laws/customs that are not worthy of any form of respect to anyone who is humane.
There's nothing nefarious about that tweet. Laws that prohibit / criminalize homosexuality are wrong. We all know that. But it's only sensible that if anyone is going to that country to watch the WC to respect (on the face of it) their laws or at least not actively disrespect / break them for their own good.
It's a disaster. What a shit World Cup. Everything from the place, corruption, to the schedules.
The use of the word 'respect' by the Qatari's throughout is pure progaganda. If you agree that laws criminalizing homosexuality are wrong then you can't possibly say that you should respect them. If something is wrong you should not respect it and they've been churning on about the need to 'respect' the cultural differences. It's essentially them saying, "okay mate, this is how we are and you should be cool with it whilst not breaking the law". Our responce should be that we are not cool with it and we don't respect it but we won't break the law in your country.
However, more or less as has been pointed out in the meantime, the global attention on Qatar and wide criticism of homophobia in the country could wake up some people in Qatar to that situation, embolden others, and thus work as a trigger to make the first domino fall internally.
In that sense, it might actually be good that FIFA takes the world cup to a large variety of countries - as long as they are clear throughout about the respect for basic human rights (as defined by the UN) that they want to see in place. That way, FIFA can act as a catalyst of positive change (however minute). Not that they do, but they could!
(And in response to other posters: yes, everywhere, not just in majoritarily muslim countries. Here in Canada, for example, I'd hope they'd draw attention to the historical and ongoing treatment of Indigenous Peoples especially. I bet all those football stadiums over here are on traditional, unceded territories of different Indigenous groups.)
'Respect' is exactly the word a lot of people are tripping over in this context. You absolutely do not have to respect homophobic laws; quite the opposite. What you can do, however, is accept the reality of those laws and behave accordingly if you want to avoid getting into trouble with the police.
I suppose 'respect' can be understood in different ways (the expression 'respecting the law' doesn't necessarily mean you agree with it, and maybe that's what you meant here), but with such a sensitive subject, choice of words does matter.
I'd assume it was an almost meaningless statement and avoid the place if it were me. Even if nothing happens it would be permanent nervous time.
Feck. That is grim.
Crazy so two people can't share a room if they're not married? What if they're just friends trying to save money? How do they know they're sleeping together? None of this shouldn't even fecking matter in these modern times.
Spot on.
Sharing a room is possible for gay couples but only with 2 single beds for safety. Otherwise you shouldn't share a room unless you are a married heterosexual couple. Hetero married people aside separate rooms with an adjoining door is safer still and ruffle both beds every night even if one isn't used is advice some gay friends of mine got when visiting Dubai. When we lived in UAE we had a neighbour report my wife and our friend to the police for sharing a car ride to work. Luckily the police weren't interested as we were expats and not on anyone's shit list.
Not on exactly the same topic but when we were there one of my wife's colleagues, who was a counsellor at a Uni, was told by one of the female students that they had been raped by a relative (both of them were very minor royalty). The head of the College demanded to know who it was so he could tell the Sheik. When she refused he sacked her and she was out of the country in about 3 days. We left soon after, 1 year into a 3 year contract, and were very glad to leave.
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If everyone held this view then we'd still be living in caves throwing rocks at anyone we don't recognise
My guess would be the rest of the international community they want to be a part of... no? Do you invite the local racist round to your house for the street BBQ? Do your kids invite the school bully over to play footie in the back garden? The international community is the same, just ask Russia. But money talks in the world of football, and here we are with massive disruptions to the football schedules all over the world to have a tournament in blistering heat for a country with no footballing history because some old fat rich cnuts wanted their pockets stuffed. Sports washing at its fecking finest. And the most annoying this about it all is those of the general public supporting this fecking nonsense. Sticking up or it with "just respect the bigotry and human rights abuses because I like the World Cup!". Honestly, some of the posts in this thread make me sick.
There is nothing about hate and injustice to respect. For example: i think i have the right to not respect neo nazis in real life or online. Those "cultures" should be under massive economic sanctions, not being rewarded with global events or buying giant football clubs.
Boycotting it is fine.
I think the OP’s point is if you are going to go, be a bit tactful.
I'm as against the world cup in the middle of the season as any other fan. And I hold no brief for Qatar and their cultural mores. But the world cup has been awarded, and is holding. At this point, one either attends or not, depending on their views. What the foreign minister asked of fans isn't the biggest deal in the world, in my opinion. The hysteria surrounding it is over the top. I'm pretty sure we aren't going to see fans jailed or 'executed' during the world cup. It's not like there's a pride parade being planned by fans.
Yeah, I guess they should just respect the culture over there by avoiding being gay, avoid getting raped, avoid being a woman etc.
Well they bought it so they can appear modern without having to change.
In reality it just spotlights their backward 14th century politics.
If a person is going to watch their national team play football in a country chosen to host their team then they should be able to go as they are. Why do they need to change or hide their behavior? They're not doing anything wrong. The host country should be the ones that should be respectful of other people's way of life since those people are guests in their country. You can't want to host a world event and not be inclusive. Having said that a country that cannot be respectful of other people's choices and blatantly violates human rights should never be allowed to host. Oil money is ruining football. It's a really sad thing.
Ignoring the analogy you're trying to make with Qatar, I completely disagree with this. If I go to a vegan friend's house, do you think they're going to be offering steak to their meat-eating guests? Are you saying they should?
There's been some appalling takes in this thread, but finally someone summed it up perfectly. If you can't accept the world and the diversity that brings, don't host a World Cup.
The "don't like it don't go" argument from many is just insulting and is likely being made by non LGBTQ people with nothing at risk themselves, people need to understand that being gay is not a choice or a lifestyle or something you can change, in the same way a heterosexual person can't change their sexual preference, it's as much a part of you as the colour of your skin, which is what makes takes like the below so disingenuous.
Veganism is a choice, being gay isn't.
I think the proper analogy is allowing people to come into your house and to spend the night in the guest room, but only on the condition that they do nothing that in any way betrays that they are gay. (Per @Wibble's posts, it's not just about clear public displays of affection.)
If you'd do that, gay people would probably not want to come and they'd be right to call you a homophobe. Depending on the country you live in, you might also get in trouble in your social or professional environment, and maybe get charged with a hate crime (depending on how you put your condition forward).
Maybe a bit too obvious as an analogy, but at least we don't have to mess about with dishes and diets this way.
Scary stuff. Only the rights of "men" seem valid or important. Everyone else is expendable.
As someone who has extensively travelled the "Middle East" I can say that being respectful means:
1) Don't wear overtly "gay clothing"
2) Don't protest LGBTQ rights in Qatar
3) Don't pull stunts like nudity or spray painting/splattering colours on national buildings
4) DO NOT kiss or engage in "cuddling" in public - Do not stream the same
5) Finally... Do not engage with the local people with your "LGBTQ" values
Basically... "Why are you LGBTQ? Don't show it. Don't be it. Don't exist please? That's it, thanks!"
Anything that goes against the state's laws is deemed worthy of persecution.
It's Fecked up.
1) Don't wear overtly "gay clothing"
2) Don't protest LGBTQ rights in Qatar
3) Don't pull stunts like nudity or spray painting/splattering colours on national buildings
4) DO NOT kiss or engage in "cuddling" in public - Do not stream the same
5) Finally... Do not engage with the local people with your "LGBTQ" values
Basically... "Why are you LGBTQ? Don't show it. Don't be it. Don't exist please? That's it, thanks!"
Anything that goes against the state's laws is deemed worthy of persecution.
It's Fecked up.
If someone’s culture is discriminating against certain people it’s a shit culture that deserves to be disrespected as much as possible.
I agree with you; I just thought the poster I'd quoted had made a shit analogy.
Outside of a massive cultural shift which was never going to happen in the years immediately prior to the tournament, never mind during it, there's not a lot that can be done now. The issue for me isn't so much the comments of the FS, but the fact it needed saying at all.
There are certain rules and laws in the country; if not observed, one gets punished. if you do not like it, do not go there. if you want to boycott it, then do so. Any national team can decide not to travel there if it's a major problem. Any country can stop any relations with Qatar if they wish to do so.
The propaganda in the West is breathtaking. No country is perfect and that includes those in the North West. We'd have boycott every world cup otherwise.
Blame FIFA then. FIFA goes where who pays them the most money.
Can Singapore host an event as per your criteria? Carrying drugs is capital punishment there.
What about India? Sedition is a crime there.
China? Lots of archaic laws curtailing human rights and committing genocide in Uighur.
What about the US? Adultery is still a crime in some states.
Also the US and it’s allies committed war crimes and human rights violations in both Afghanistan and Iraq and got away scot-free. Why is that acceptable?
I shed tears for the migrant workers who died by the thousands in 40+ heat in modern slavery conditions in Qatar to construct these stadiums, with no choice available to them compared to football fans who are being asked to follow the "rules" of the host nation and will leave in a couple of weeks. Obviously those brown lives lost are not very important for the media here.
The WC is being held there because the corrupt cnuts wanted enough money to sort out 5 future generations. You really think the bent twats at FIFA did this so Qatar could be reformed
The world doesn't work that way though which is why I find the response to the guidance by foreign secretary a bit funny. The tragedy is the world cup being hosted there due to the sheer greed of the corrupt cnuts but once that's done, it's sensible to 1. behave in a manner that's not going to see you jailed in a foreign country or 2. Stay at home because it's not right. Saying I know they find it unacceptable but I'll do it anyway would be a bit stupid.
Any world sporting body can refuse to give a world event to a country who's laws discriminate against universal human rights. If you want to invite the world to your country for the world cup and reap all the benefits that come with it then you should accept diversity. If you don't want to do that don't host a world cup. FIFA has a lot to answer for here.
I'm not saying every other nation isn't guilty of some sort of human rights violation. The difference is the US won't prosecute and sentence people to death for displaying affection to their legal partners if they're visiting our country as a guest to enjoy some football. If you can't understand the difference between that and what could potentially happen in Qatar then there is no point in continuing this discussion with you.
Oh I know it's corruption and like I said these greedy bastards are the main culprits. If they cared about reform they would have strict criteria that need to be met before a country can host.The WC is being held there because the corrupt cnuts wanted enough money to sort out 5 future generations. You really think the bent twats at FIFA did this so Qatar could be reformed
The world doesn't work that way though which is why I find the response to the guidance by foreign secretary a bit funny. The tragedy is the world cup being hosted there due to the sheer greed of the corrupt cnuts but once that's done, it's sensible to 1. behave in a manner that's not going to see you jailed in a foreign country or 2. Stay at home because it's not right. Saying I know they find it unacceptable but I'll do it anyway would be a bit stupid.