Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[Red the Bear]

So why did you have an issue with my post re: human rights flying in concert with religion? Religion is the distillation of this issue, it can’t be divorced. It’s sad that a fairy tale is actively impinging upon human rights.

That's your opinion , I bet most qataries disagree.

Also to be honest I'd imagine it to be mostly a socioeconomic issue, many supposedly state atheistic communist country had pretty harsh LGBT laws.

Again what I'm against is politics or economic or even worse militaristic intervention to correct such wrongs, I rather let them do it themselves.

 

[Red the Bear]

My point is that perhaps intervention was morally the right thing to do, regardless of sovereignity.

I understand where you're coming from but I disagreeing, it's playing with fire.

 

[calodo2003]

That's your opinion , I bet most qataries disagree.

Also to be honest I'd imagine it to be mostly a socioeconomic issue, many supposedly state atheistic communist country had pretty harsh LGBT laws.

Again what I'm against is politics or economic or even worse militaristic intervention to correct such wrongs, I rather let them do it themselves.

Religion is at the core of their zeitgeist, their tradition, their laws, etc. It’s intellectually immature to argue otherwise. It’s okay to call a spade, a spade.

In this case, it’s religion that is at fault in my opinion. In the case of secular, communistic countries that are repressive towards LGBT rights, it’s the authoritarianism & the hate it foments that’s at fault.

 

[Viral United]

My point is that perhaps intervention was morally the right thing to do, regardless of sovereignity.

I don't agree with this, we can protest or boycott as much as we want, but intervention is not right thing to do.
Intervention should come from inside those countries.

 

[Manncunian]

If you want to be gay in Qatar, go for it but don't cry foul when you end up in trouble because of it. You knew what you were getting into, and no amount of rainbow-colored armbands are going to change a thing about that.

This is like saying to a black person that if they want to be black in a Deep South US State full of known racists then don’t cry foul when they end up in trouble because of it.

“Hey, you knew you were black so stop whining that you got racially abused. You knew what you were getting yourself into. So shut up. You got hospitalised? Self inflicted I’m afraid. Don’t step foot in such places.” This is no different to what you’ve just said and it’s abhorrent.

Placing all the responsibility on to the victims of discrimination is the worst take I’ve ever seen.

Jesus Wept.

 

[Stobzilla]

Easier to just be respectful than to be offended. What’s so crazy about being respectful of the host nations culture? You want them to change 100s of years of cultural history in the region to accommodate a select few? Just be respectful for a month and so and go back home and continue. It’s that simple.

Qatar isn't gonna shag you mate.

 

[Red the Bear]

Religion is at the core of their zeitgeist, their tradition, their laws, etc. It’s intellectually immature to argue otherwise. It’s okay to call a spade, a spade.

In this case, it’s religion that is at fault in my opinion. In the case of secular, communistic countries that are repressive towards LGBT rights, it’s the authoritarianism & the hate it foments that’s at fault.

Fair enough, I'm not arguing with that, hope you understood why I'm against any so called intervention.

 

[calodo2003]

Fair enough, I'm not arguing with that, hope you understood why I'm against any so called intervention.

Gotcha!

 

[moses]

You sure your name isn't George Dubya?

Well done. It was a discussion about sovereignity versus human rights. Not all intervention is the same.

 

[TheRedHearted]

I don't follow. Sorry.

Could follow the responses -

This is the part I don't agree with it, the whole not dating, not public displays of affection or 'not being gay'. That is just so backwards thinking and in an event like a World Cup where a lot of people go out of hand with the partying and having a good time I think is asking for trouble.

So going there and 'being respectful' isn't enough or it isn't as simple as that. Like there was a female reporter who got raped in Qatar, denounced the incident and got convicted to prision and lashes. The only solution they offered was to marry her aggressor. In instances like that it goes beyond to being respectful of their culture.

That’s a crazy situation - what’s the source?

 

[moses]

I don't agree with this, we can protest or boycott as much as we want, but intervention is not right thing to do.
Intervention should come from inside those countries.

Ideally yes. I think that genocide deserves a rethink. But we are off topic, sorry, I was talking hypothetically about the sanctity of sovereignity. I just think the only validity for nations or governments is to serve the people. They are not sacred to me behind their utility.

 

[Red the Bear]

Could follow the responses -

That’s a crazy situation - what’s the source?

I'm assuming he's talking about this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...years-in-qatar-jail-after-reporting-rape/amp/

 

[Cascarino]

You can be against homophobia and islamophobia at the same time, you know.

Actually you can't.

Explain why you can't be

 

[Marwood]

That's red top sensationalism at its finest, well done.

It's asking visitors of a sovereign state to respect their laws, traditions and customs. don't like it, don't go, simples.

You might have an argument there if for instance a gay couple just decided to holiday there out of choice.

But when the nation is hosting an international tournament? Nah, the "flexibility" is on Qatar.

They chose to host an international event knowing visitors from all walks of life would attend.

 

[KirkDuyt]

The respect a culture for thinking being gay is wrong angle is so tiresome. Viewing homosexuality as sinful or wrong is dumb and having this view makes you a dumb cnut.

 

[Viral United]

Ideally yes. I think that genocide deserves a rethink. But we are off topic, sorry, I was talking hypothetically about the sanctity of sovereignity. I just think the only validity for nations or governments is to serve the people. They are not sacred to me behind their utility.

Fair points.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Qatar isn't gonna shag you mate.

Not in public, that’s for sure.

 

[Boavista]

For the people that say change should come from within a country, or variations of "sovereign countries have the right to decide how to govern themselves", ideally that's hard to disagree with. However that kind of argument has its limitations when dealing with minority rights specifically, and more generally when those countries aren't democracies to begin with. In this case, it's safe to assume that although Qatar is not democratic that almost the entire country is against LGBT rights (come to think of it that ignores the "expat" population that outnumbers the local population, but as this thread shows many probably don't care either, and have no say anyway). It's a classic "tyranny of the majority" problem, so if you care about minority rights it's simply not a sensible argument to say this is how that society wants to live when the majority view violates the human rights of minorities.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

The respect a culture for thinking being gay is wrong angle is so tiresome. Viewing homosexuality as sinful or wrong is dumb and having this view makes you a dumb cnut.

Preach wait are we allowed to?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The respect a culture for thinking being gay is wrong angle is so tiresome. Viewing homosexuality as sinful or wrong is dumb and having this view makes you a dumb cnut.

There’s loads of dumb views that different cultures have. In America sunbathing topless would cause outrage. Lots of other countries have issues around women not wearing “modest” clothes. Try wearing a bikini top through the streets of most middle eastern cities and it won’t end well.

Obviously, any culture that is inherently prejudiced against being gay is disgusting. But there are definitely grey area when it comes to culturally appropriate behaviour when you’re abroad. Generally better off falling into line, even if you think their opinions are dumb.

 

[Marwood]

Easier to just be respectful than to be offended. What’s so crazy about being respectful of the host nations culture? You want them to change 100s of years of cultural history in the region to accommodate a select few? Just be respectful for a month and so and go back home and continue. It’s that simple.

When you say culture what you really mean is a handful of angry old men setting the rules.

Because that's all it ever is.

A county could change these 14th century morals incredibly quickly if it wasn't for that scared group of men at the top.

 

[Sayros]

This is the part I don't agree with it, the whole not dating, not public displays of affection or 'not being gay'. That is just so backwards thinking and in an event like a World Cup where a lot of people go out of hand with the partying and having a good time I think is asking for trouble.

So going there and 'being respectful' isn't enough or it isn't as simple as that. Like there was a female reporter who got raped in Qatar, denounced the incident and got convicted to prision and lashes. The only solution they offered was to marry her aggressor. In instances like that it goes beyond to being respectful of their culture.

But you misunderstand my, and I think others who are making the same point I am, it's not about respecting their culture. I don't respect their culture. It's about knowing you're in their land, in a sovereign nation, with their own backward laws, and it's all nice and good to say there should be human rights everywhere, but unless you can actually enforce that with force, it's not going to change a damn thing for them. It's not even just a gay thing, I think even straight couples aren't allowed to show public displays of affection. No one, I think or hope, is saying that their culture is worthy of respect, at least I'm certainly not saying that, but there is nothing we are doing that's going to change this. The only hope is over time, and it will be likely decades if not more, they'll realize being gay is as natural as being straight and it's really beyond disgusting to hate or hurt someone for how they were born.

 

[EngimaMK]

I don't understand why people are so confused over this. Should the world Cup be there? No. Do most westerners (myself included) think these guys are backwards with regards to LGBT? Yes. Is it a country where they don't accept gay displays in public? Yes. Are you able to acknowledge that not every country in the world accepts OUR social norms? I would have thought so, unless you're a massive child.

 

[Sayros]

This is like saying to a black person that if they want to be black in a Deep South US State full of known racists then don’t cry foul when they end up in trouble because of it.

“Hey, you knew you were black so stop whining that you got racially abused. You knew what you were getting yourself into. So shut up. You got hospitalised? Self inflicted I’m afraid. Don’t step foot in such places.” This is no different to what you’ve just said and it’s abhorrent.

Placing all the responsibility on to the victims of discrimination is the worst take I’ve ever seen.

Jesus Wept.

You just read and understood what you wanted to so you can judge what I say from your high horse. Just read my reply above and get back to me when you found some common sense.

 

[arnie_ni]

It really doesn't matter what you believe, what you think (know?) is right or wrong, if you go you simply have to obey their rules and their laws.

 

[Sayros]

I don't understand why people are so confused over this. Should the world Cup be there? No. Do most westerners (myself included) think these guys are backwards with regards to LGBT? Yes. Is it a country where they don't accept gay displays in public? Yes. Are you able to acknowledge that not every country in the world accepts OUR social norms? I would have thought so, unless you're a massive child.

That's the thing, I think a lot of those 'everybody should respect human rights' posts are made by young people who don't really understand how the world works yet. I admire the naivete and purity of the thought, I've been that person, but then you grow up and realize the world isn't like that and good thoughts, public marches, etc don't really change a damn thing to a sovereign nation in their own lands with their own belief and massive religious influence over their policy.

 

[EngimaMK]

I don't take Gary "I know what it's like to be black" Lineker's opinion on anything very seriously. The guy is a tit.

 

[Marwood]

I don't understand why people are so confused over this. Should the world Cup be there? No. Do most westerners (myself included) think these guys are backwards with regards to LGBT? Yes. Is it a country where they don't accept gay displays in public? Yes. Are you able to acknowledge that not every country in the world accepts OUR social norms? I would have thought so, unless you're a massive child.

Being gay is not a social norm. It's a human norm.

A social norm would be drinking alcohol. A choice. I think most accept the ban on that as a rule you can go along with.

The average gay enjoying a bit of penis isn't a choice. It's who he is. It's not downing a can of Carling.

This is simple stuff.

 

[Red the Bear]

That's the thing, I think a lot of those 'everybody should respect human rights' posts are made by young people who don't really understand how the world works yet.

Idealism or naivety knows no age nor no bounds.

It's a thin line between being noble or idiotic, maybe it's both.

 

[NotThatSoph]

That's the thing, I think a lot of those 'everybody should respect human rights' posts are made by young people who don't really understand how the world works yet. I admire the naivete and purity of the thought, I've been that person, but then you grow up and realize the world isn't like that and good thoughts, public marches, etc don't really change a damn thing to a sovereign nation in their own lands with their own belief and massive religious influence over their policy.

This is one of the most condescending things I've ever read, which is interesting when combined with the vapidness.

 

[KirkDuyt]

There’s loads of dumb views that different cultures have. In America sunbathing topless would cause outrage. Lots of other countries have issues around women not wearing “modest” clothes. Try wearing a bikini top through the streets of most middle eastern cities and it won’t end well.

Obviously, any culture that is inherently prejudiced against being gay is disgusting. But there are definitely grey area when it comes to culturally appropriate behaviour when you’re abroad. Generally better off falling into line, even if you think their opinions are dumb.

While I think the prudishness of Americans parallel to their gynormous porn industry is laughable it's hardly as bad as not accepting someone's sexual orientation. I respect subtle cultural differences and it has always been one of the joys of my internationally orientated previous jobs, but the intolerances of some culture are simply wrong to me. Universal human rights trump culture if you ask me.

 

[Sayros]

This is one of the most condescending things I've ever read, which is interesting when combined with the vapidness.

Well then you're very lucky if that's one of the most condescending thing you've ever read. Also fascinating you'd attach 'interesting' with 'vapidness'.

 

[sullydnl]

I don't understand why people are so confused over this. Should the world Cup be there? No. Do most westerners (myself included) think these guys are backwards with regards to LGBT? Yes. Is it a country where they don't accept gay displays in public? Yes. Are you able to acknowledge that not every country in the world accepts OUR social norms? I would have thought so, unless you're a massive child.

I haven't seen anyone here suggest otherwise?

In this case we're criticising them for not doing so, because not sharing this particular "cultural norm" is abhorrent.

 

[Acheron]

Could follow the responses -

That’s a crazy situation - what’s the source?

https://pledgetimes.com/a-mexican-w...nced-to-100-lashes-and-seven-years-in-prison/

Yeah, it's crazy but that's how they treat extramarital sex and women over there.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Well then you're very lucky if that's one of the most condescending thing you've ever read.

I think you underestimate yourself. Maybe you'll gain some confidence in yourself when you grow up and learn how to function like a human being. Like me.

 

[KirkDuyt]

That's the thing, I think a lot of those 'everybody should respect human rights' posts are made by young people who don't really understand how the world works yet. I admire the naivete and purity of the thought, I've been that person, but then you grow up and realize the world isn't like that and good thoughts, public marches, etc don't really change a damn thing to a sovereign nation in their own lands with their own belief and massive religious influence over their policy.

If everyone in history had this outlook on life the world would be a very shite and backwards place. It's true that some people lose their idealism when they get older, but without idealism we would be an even shitter species.

Serious societal change only happens with effort. It may not be in our lifetime, but it doesnt mean we should say feck it.

 

[Sayros]

If everyone in history had this outlook on life the world would be a very shite and backwards place. It's true that some people lose their idealism when they get older, but without idealism we would be an even shitter species.

Serious societal change only happens with effort. It may not be in our lifetime, but it doesnt mean we should say feck it.

I don't disagree one bit with that notion. But there are fights that are worth having, and there are others that are not. See what's happening in Iran, they are sacrificing their lives to make change from within. Maybe it will work, but that change has to come from within. It will not work to impose a change from outsiders onto a sovereign nation.

I think you underestimate yourself. Maybe you'll gain some confidence in yourself when you grow up and learn how to function like a human being. Like me.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

While I think the prudishness of Americans parallel to their gynormous porn industry is laughable it's hardly as bad as not accepting someone's sexual orientation. I respect subtle cultural differences and it has always been one of the joys of my internationally orientated previous jobs, but the intolerances of some culture are simply wrong to me. Universal human rights trump culture if you ask me.

For sure. I’m not approving of the removal of any rights. But we’re talking about cultural norms here. I don’t think there’s a law about topless sunbathing in the US (could be wrong?) but people don’t do it because it would make other people around them uncomfortable. In a way it’s just being polite. Even though yank prudishness is fecking absurd.

I’m not even sure what gay people are being told to do here. We’ve established that men holding hands is entirely normal in the Middle East. Ditto kissing other men on the cheek. So what are they being asked to do? No kissing with tongues in public? In conservative middle eastern countries straight people would generally be advised to not do that either. It’s dumb, conservative and annoying. But it seems like good manners not to pick a fight about it.

 

[Manncunian]

You just read and understood what you wanted to so you can judge what I say from your high horse. Just read my reply above and get back to me when you found some common sense.

I read exactly what was written. And it appears I’m not the only one who’s “misunderstood” your words. I think the problem lies with the way you phrase things.

But it is rather amusing that you tell me to get off my high horse whilst being supercilious yourself.

I think a lot of those 'everybody should respect human rights' posts are made by young people who don't really understand how the world works yet.

It seems patronising others is a forte of yours though.

 

[Red the Bear]

https://pledgetimes.com/a-mexican-w...nced-to-100-lashes-and-seven-years-in-prison/

Yeah, it's crazy but that's how they treat extramarital sex and women over there.

To be fair the law also applies to man but its more freely enforced in their case, but yeah it's bad.

Well then you're very lucky if that's one of the most condescending thing you've ever read. Also fascinating you'd attach 'interesting' with 'vapidness'.

I think you underestimate yourself. Maybe you'll gain some confidence in yourself when you grow up and learn how to function like a human being. Like me.

No point in fighting on a topic like this, its counter intuitive.