protesting has helped change plenty of laws through the decades
why should islamic countries be immune to that?
change will happen eventually
I think you are the naive one, to be honest
Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful
- Thread starter GaryLifo
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protesting has helped change plenty of laws through the decades
why should islamic countries be immune to that?
change will happen eventually
I think you are the naive one, to be honest
Oh on that I agree. We will mever be able to impose these things from the outside.I don't disagree one bit with that notion. But there are fights that are worth having, and there are others that are not. See what's happening in Iran, they are sacrificing their lives to make change from within. Maybe it will work, but that change has to come from within. It will not work to impose a change from outsiders onto a sovereign nation.
Ok, now I get you.
Ideally people should boycott the event but at the very leasat with so many foreigners going there I hopa that at least people gets more vocal about some of the issues around there.
How do you think these human rights came about? Countries weren't randomly born with things like LGBT acceptance. 1970's USA wasn't some paradise for the gays, the marches didn't come about because everyone respected their rights, it's because they didn't.
These places aren't devoid of gay people. They're just heavily oppressed. Your argument could have just as been easily made about Iran and women's rights a couple of months ago. Look at how groups from around the world are showing solidarity with their movement, and amplifying it.
I don't suffer fools very well, that I'll readily admit. If you actually read what I wrote though, you'd actually see we hold the same ideals, we just don't have the same expectation of outcome on how to resolve this. I believe a sovereign nation that isn't dependent on any wester society cannot change from outside influence, you think the opposite. We can disagree on that.
And how did those changes come? From within. It wasn't an outside congregation of nations that tried to impose those things. We had to fight for those rights from within, and that's all I'm merely saying about Qatar or any other nations. You're really making my point with this. Once the first domino fall in one of those nations, then go all in with the support from the outside, but until that first domino fall, all those marches and rainbow armbands aren't going to change much of anything.
Nah, they were absolutely right. It was an embarrassingly pathetic post.
This is the confusion point here for me
All well and good protesting Qatar's ban on homosexuality. But from what I understand, they have said that people of all orientations are welcome to the tournament, and have just cautioned against overt public gestures of affection. For all orientations. As a straight man I know that I can't go to Qatar and neck my wife in public. So I struggle to see the issue concerning some fans not feeling safe in Qatar. Would appreciate some education on this topic.
Because countries aren't isolated. When you can see other paths, it inspires your own change. This has been a constant throughout history. Look at how Gandhi and India directly inspired Martin Luther King. Your takeaway that visible protests and discourse don't make an impact is just categorically untrue.
But again, inspirations can come and go, and we are making noise about this, but the change has to start within Qatar, just like it did in Iran. Until their citizens are willing to die over this like they are in Iran, a silly one-month long tournament isn't going to cause policy changes in that nation.
but the world is vastly different now and much more globalised
people from oppressed nations can and will take ideas and inspiration from people all over the world
and that obviously includes many examples of countries changing and becoming more secular and open-minded through the ages
It was inevitable that the Foreign Office would say something like this. Part of its job is to give out travel advice. The Foreign Secretary would not be doing his job if he didn't warn people about stuff you can get into trouble for in Qatar.
One of the reasons I am not really interested in going to Qatar is because the advice is valid. Like it or not. I am not sure I could relax in a place that has very different values than the country I am from.
I am sure a lot of things go on out there that are, officially, not allowed. However, I would not want to be somewhere where if you piss off the wrong person they can report you for something.
I appreciate what people are saying about Qatar being a sovereign country. Even if I think they should do things differently, I accept they have the right to organise their society as they choose. That's why it's a society I would choose to stay away from (I am sure the Qataris will lose no sleep over that).
For me it was a mistake giving Qatar the World Cup, for many reasons. However, it is what it is. I will watch the tournament like everyone else and then it'll be out of sight and out of mind.
One of the reasons I am not really interested in going to Qatar is because the advice is valid. Like it or not. I am not sure I could relax in a place that has very different values than the country I am from.
I am sure a lot of things go on out there that are, officially, not allowed. However, I would not want to be somewhere where if you piss off the wrong person they can report you for something.
I appreciate what people are saying about Qatar being a sovereign country. Even if I think they should do things differently, I accept they have the right to organise their society as they choose. That's why it's a society I would choose to stay away from (I am sure the Qataris will lose no sleep over that).
For me it was a mistake giving Qatar the World Cup, for many reasons. However, it is what it is. I will watch the tournament like everyone else and then it'll be out of sight and out of mind.
No you don't understand ... the Europeans are offended by your " backwards culture" when you have a chance to do your country proud by hosting a global event and not when they need your oil & gas to prop up their currencies or land for military bases to surround Russia/China or investment in their ageing countries.
If Redcafe is really that sensitive why don't you ban all talk of World Cup on the site for 30 days? Be principled, unlike Denmark and their shirt protest.
The issue that sparked today's latest round of complaints wasn't the suggestion that LGBT people may need to abide by the restrictions in the host nation. Everyone understands that.
It was the framing of it as a need to be "respectful" of the host nation's culture in this regard rather than a warning to be cautious of the host nation's laws.
Because while people in the UK may not be able to change anything in Qatar, they can demand that their own politicians be clear in condemning the homophobia in Qatar when discussing the issue. And suggesting that homosexuals should have respect for direct homophobia obviously doesn't do that.
It was the framing of it as a need to be "respectful" of the host nation's culture in this regard rather than a warning to be cautious of the host nation's laws.
Because while people in the UK may not be able to change anything in Qatar, they can demand that their own politicians be clear in condemning the homophobia in Qatar when discussing the issue. And suggesting that homosexuals should have respect for direct homophobia obviously doesn't do that.
I don't disagree with that. My only point is that the first domino has to fall in Qatar or whatever other nations we want to discuss that's dealing with those rights issue. You can try to influence them, and for sure there are plenty of gay people in Qatar who are scared to death of being themselves, but until they've had enough to the point they're willing to die rather than live in the shadows for one more day, there is nothing we can do to create the change we'd like to see in that part of the world. I don't know how things will work out in Iran, but it's gotten to a point that seems beyond the controlling party's ability to handle, and hopefully it can show other nations suffering from the same religious intolerance and embolden them to do the same. The actual change (not the ideal, not the thoughts, not the concept of human rights) has to come from within first.
When I saw men in Iran, not women but the men actually leave their job site and risk their lives to support women's rights in that country, that's the domino falling. We still don't know whether it'll work out or not, but that's what we need to see in those parts of the world to actually see change.
You're not gonna bully me off expressing my thoughts, the only pathetic thing is your reaction to it. We're having an open discussion, it's gonna get uncomfortable at times. Get over it and yourself. I'm just looking for the truth here and I might make mistakes on my way there, but it's not with bad intentions.
If you choose to host an international tournament then you have an obligation to accept some universal norms of visitors. It's not a two way compromise where you meet half way on discrimination, the host has to align.
James Cleverley could easily have said we except people to be respectful of local culture but at the same time discrimination shouldn't and won't be accepted. It's not difficult is it, why he choose to not take a firm stance says more about the Tory party right now.
James Cleverley could easily have said we except people to be respectful of local culture but at the same time discrimination shouldn't and won't be accepted. It's not difficult is it, why he choose to not take a firm stance says more about the Tory party right now.
What if this tournament and other events lead to a slow change in say 10-20 years? We've seen improvements for women in these areas as they've opened up to the rest of the world and faced heavy scrutiny. Hosting a World Cup raises these issues even further and can plant a seed to understand, meet people from around the world and reciprocate.
The world thrives way too much on hysteria these days, which is very frustrating. Down to the nitty gritty...what exactly would LGBT+ like to do in Qatar that they're scared would be punished? Cos the situation on the ground in Qatar, with its masses of expats, is very different from the agenda-driven, sensationalist reporting in the media. The morality of cultures is a different matter. Western culture also once frowned at homosexuality. Who says all cultures must change at the same time as we have changed? Perhaps things like this world cup might be a catalyst for the change we seek?
It's a sport that unites the world regardless of race, gender, religion and sexual preference so everyone should be able to attend and feel safe. Why should someone feel unsafe to go to an event that's supposed to represent the world united? If you're agreeing to host a world event then you should bloody well accept that the world is a melting pot of different types of people and the host should put aside their preferences and welcome EVERYONE.
It's ludicrous that a nation who would discriminate was allowed to host WC. Let's bid to host "World" Cup but not every citizen of this "World" is welcomed. feck that.
For what it is worth, I think you've made your point clearly and succinctly. Anybody finding issue with what you have said is wilfully misconstruing your words to hold themselves up as a bastion of self-aggrandising righteousness.
I agree with your underlying notion I just think you need to zoom out a bit as this is far from black or white. Sure, it has to be instigated from within - but outside influence can and likely will play a role in that too.
The massive scrutiny this World Cup is placing on Qatar's human rights record has gotta be something the people of Qatar will be aware of.
Yes, and?
That's the part that a lot of people are maybe being too defeatist about. Societal changes can take decades, but without catalysts changes don't happen at all. Sometimes really tiny things like small shows of solidarity can have an effect, maybe just on a few people, maybe people outside of Qatar. Yes it won't change a culture, but part of me thinks if not now, when is there a better opportunity for some kind of show of support?
It's a poorly wordes statement by (shock horror) a tory politician who's not fit for office.
As many have said, the advice should have been to be aware of the counties laws around PDA while also condemning any notion that homosexuality should be illegal. Its not hard.
As many have said, the advice should have been to be aware of the counties laws around PDA while also condemning any notion that homosexuality should be illegal. Its not hard.
Qatar is Muslim country - homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. Qatar adopts its religious values into its laws.
You have to respect that if you want to visit Qatar.
You have to respect that if you want to visit Qatar.
The folks who selected them knew what they were about from the start though. It's not like any of this was hidden, so if you want to blame anyone, blame the decision makers.
All sorts of people visit the likes of Qatar as tourists by the way, they just know not to do what would be against the known national law in public.
If you're a regular tourist then yeah but if you're hosting a world event then you can't dictate how people should live their lives. They invited the entire world in when they agreed to host. They can't decide what those people should or shouldn't do or how they should or shouldn't act. It's ridiculous.
Of course they can - it is their country, and they have laws (regardless of whether you view them as right or wrong). The fact that a country is hosting a world cup doesn't nullify their legal system, their identity or sovereignty.If the UK was hosting a world cup, I'd expect everyone attending to abide by our laws here. If they feel unable to, I'd expect them not to show.
I don't know why so many people are saying you have to 'respect it' if you go to Qatar. No one civilised should 'respect it' because it's a backwards law from a country run by backwards people. The message should be 'put up with it' instead. feck respecting these cnut laws.
Laws that are not violating human rights should be obeyed, wouldn't you agree?
If the UK was hosting a world cup, I'd expect everyone attending to abide by our laws here. If they feel unable to, I'd expect them not to show.
Just to add people will willingly obey the laws of UK because it's not discriminating against the LGBT community.
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It was a mistake and a abomination to host it there and the best thing for everyone who can't swallow the rules of this country, treatment of workers and minorities and its winter WC is to give it the middle finger and diss it all together. Season pass for the NBA is cheap and the NFL is going strong.
That's what I take 'respectful' to mean (putting up with it). If a municipality asks me to respect their law on jaywalking, I don't need to venerate it in my mind, I just abide by the rules when there.
Don't be gay at the world cup lads.
I'm not bullying you ya massive softie. You made a post that was outrageously condescending and got called out on it. Rather than hold your hands up and take your lashings you've opted to double down, which isn't a great look.
Why should anyone respect something so despicable and an outright abuse of human rights? And yes, I do want them to change legalised persecution based on an ancient religious book, a ludicrous way to guide a society in the modern world.
I wouldn't go near that place IF I were gay. You just know the authorities will be looking to find the slightest "disrespectfulness" to lash out on.
Rubbish. You can hold moral and ethical opinions and protests what you like even if immediate results aren't forthcoming no matter what your age. Reverting to "can't win, don't try" on that basis that you think your newly found adult cynicism is something profound is why so many things are so shit. A lack of response to global warming would be the best example.
Freedom of religion in itself is fine of course, as long as it doesn’t impinge basic human rights.
You obviously haven't been to or lived in the region. Statements like that hold right up until they don't. Booking a room with 2 beds is a basic precaution for gay people visiting the region but if you get dobbed in to the police by hotel staff that only 1 bed was slept in you could still end up in jail. If you are anything other that full hetero I'd be avoiding the region entirely.
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Can you confirm for me that public displays of affection are treated with the exact same level of offence regardless of orientation? Once again, respecting cultures isn’t something I am incapable of, but that doesn’t mean it should give a pass to denying people of their basic human rights. I can only imagine how hard it must be for a gay person to be born in once of these countries. It must be awful.