Comment from Reddit. From Qatar's perspective, what did they think was gonna happen?
Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful
- Thread starter GaryLifo
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You think I'm being pompous etc?
I'm on a forum having a discussion, have I read the room wrong? Isn't that the point of discussion forums?
I've not been aggressive or rude. I've tried to put my points across the best way I know how.
Yeah, that was probably poor wording on my part. A better way of saying it would be that the wahhabis and barelwis I know would agree on the stuff that non-muslims would consider major cultural issues (eg homosexuality, women's rights, views on Israel and Jews etc) but the things they disagree on would be intra-religious stuff that non-muslims would consider minor in the grand scheme of things.
But you're right, this probably isn't the best thread for this discussion.
No, you are not aggressive or rude. Most certain.
But yes, you are very dismissive and often don't engage with the premise of the people you interact with.
Mostly I just find the admission you are lacking in this area contradicts how much you actually have to say on the topic.
I feel sorry for the people of Qatar. They have every right to enjoy their World Cup. Sadly they can't because, rightly, the focus is on human rights abuses.
The people of Qatar is an interesting thing in itself. Only 11% of the population are citizens.
Is that really just 300,000 people?
I think the idea is all this bad stuff will be forgotten in 20-30 years time.
Qatar will be a part of trivia and therefore seen as a more legit nation. "Who hosted the first ever Christmas world cup in 2022? Who won the Qatar 2022 World Cup?"
Maybe more businesses will open there as a result and more people will start visiting.
It's short term thinking to assume it won't work. The internet will have forgotten all about this shit in 6 months - there'll be some new thing to be outraged over
Feels like every page someone needs to point out yet again that being LGBT+ isn't a choice. It's demeaning & intellectually immature to try to associate one being gay with a conscious choice one may make.
Being a politician is an illness of the mind
Fifa's armband counter-offense was always going to fail... forgetting ginger kids.. what were they thinking??? .. so I guess it's good that they are doing this. But "big experiment", "not afraid of consequences", "carry the power of the armband".. Neuer/Germany is too big to sanction, he faces basically no risk, it's a small gesture, probably way less than they could actually get away with and they make it sound like they are heroes.
Re Monty Python, I think they were mocking the Bible, not mankind's ability to interpretate things
Blimey I can just imagine what would have happened if it had been the koran they'd mocked rather than the bible.
Man this was a depressing read. Sad to think that so many people struggle like this on the daily.
Sure but you said the book is misinterpreted because that's human nature. I think that's an excuse for a poorly written book.
There are plenty of things we don't confuse or misinterpret. The laws of the land for instance. Because they're clearly written. We all know what you can and can't legally do.
If a human lawmaker can make something clear you'd think the supreme being could manage it.
Like I say, a couple of simple sentences could have changed the course of history.
"Whatever your sexuality it's cool"
"Women are equal to men"
Clear, concise, impossible to confuse. That alone would have made a fundamental difference.
I'm not just talking about Islam here by the way. Same goes for all the other major religions.
Edit: and as somebody else pointed out, Monty Python wasn't misunderstanding, it was mocking.
I apologise i didn't mean to offend so many people with my post. All i meant is that the governing laws of the country, no matter how idiotic and stupid (trust me my country has loads) are set in stone. Its our choice if we wanna go there and if we do, we have to adhere to their rules. Personally for myself, being a minority my whole life and facing racism on a weekly basis, i've learnt to just not go to where the rules are discriminatory against me. Fighting it takes too much effort and i would rather feed my family.
All i want is just a world cup that is focused on football but sadly, this world cup is anything but and the fault lies with fifa for awarding it to qatar in the 1st place.
All i want is just a world cup that is focused on football but sadly, this world cup is anything but and the fault lies with fifa for awarding it to qatar in the 1st place.
You've done it twice just dismissed it. Most recently saying "they should know its not open to interpretation" yet you know there are people in those countries with far more knowledge of the religion than you have. The point is that you dont want to actually touch that because you will have to look inwardly too much.
Why are there countries with more open laws for lgbt people? Why would their religious leaders have a different opinion to you based on the same religious texts? With the clear understanding that there are students of the text who are far more advanced than you.
15.50 they address Hugo Lloris and his statement regarding respecting Qatar.
Something I always find weird in these debates and the whole "respect their culture" bit is the relation between culture and the political system. Qatar is a dictatorship, so how do we know what the culture actually is if people can't freely do what they want? Isn't that how cultures are born? People doing stuff that eventually sticks?
Maybe a few months ago people would say it's part of iranian culture for women to cover their hair. As we can see now, that's bullshit, it's not cultural, it's a political imposition. If you tell most iranian women to cover their hair because it's cultural most of them would probably tell you to feck off.
Maybe a few months ago people would say it's part of iranian culture for women to cover their hair. As we can see now, that's bullshit, it's not cultural, it's a political imposition. If you tell most iranian women to cover their hair because it's cultural most of them would probably tell you to feck off.
That's the crux of the whole issue, you could also use religion instead of culture in your post. It's all different manifestations of control and oppression. Religion and culture are not valid excuses for this.
Completely agree.
Is it a culture or is it a handful of men telling everyone what to do?
I think in a country like Qatar it's quite clearly a handful of men telling everyone what to do seeing as 2/3 of their population are migrant workers.
The book is surprisingly concise. That is the issue for people (and/or human nature]. I don't want to write essays and it does distract from the thread. Put simply it's the Qur'an, as described by the Sunnah and acted upon by the Sahabah.
Barelwis for example, because they want to venerate pir/saints completely miss out words in their books (going back years) as it suits their premise. That's not the books fault.
We have translations by Marmaduke Pickthal and Ali (more famous). Have you ever looked into their backgrounds? Specifically Ali? If not then maybe it is hard to understand some of what I'm saying.
The Qur'an (and subsequently the Sunnah) are precise when it comes to rights. Women had no rights. Transgender had no rights. Qur'an and Sunnah goes into detail about rights. Not sure what more people want.
And yeah I know what monty python is yet the hair shaving example is genuine and wasn't a joke. It was people "finding a way around" covering the head/hair. Which is the same as mocking for me hence the comparison.
I think I get you now. But happy to clarify further if not.
They do know. Great imams of the past refused to bend to the orders of the ruler and we're imprisoned and worse. The rulers simply wanted fatwas to get their own way
Take Saudi for example. Full of imams and some of them are vastly knowledgeable. But here is my point. Most of the current imams that do the main legal rulings for Saudi are students of sheikh bin Baz. A person who people often call salafi and tie it to terror attacks and Isis etc. The problem is this is false on two levels.
Firstly Bin Baz (who was indeed a great man of knowledge) wrote the nawaqid (nullifiers) of Islam. These were about 12 points. Widely appreciated and accepted by most. But then the Saudi regime started fitting those nullifiers, he was a Saudi govt imam. All of a sudden he went quiet and his students argued different. Why? Because it didn't fit the Saudi rulers.
Secondly Bin Baz was so into the argument FOR the Saudis there can never be another khilafahnor khalif, so could never be supportive of Isis.
Again as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. In a nutshell the constitutions of most "Muslim" countries would make them not Muslim countries according to Sharia. The imams sitting at the table justifying it are knowledgeable but don't implement.
Examples for you based on countries people have mentioned.
Turkey. A Muslim country that banned the adhan (call to prayer) in Arabic for 18 years iirc. Any imam spoke against this was imprisoned or killed. First country to ban hijab in universities (wait Muslim country with imams? Yes)
Pakistan. Goes under the name of Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The biggest party (PPP) was started by a man who was a socialist. Even the first PM, Jinnah, not a Muslim (although some will dispute this but the evidence is there).
One of its biggest imams Taqi Uthmani. Govt appointed. Yes knowledgeable but now heads a banking firm in middle East. Prior to this was the "authority" on shariah financial matters. Made most things that are clear and concise in shariah as being haram halal. Which in of itself could make him non Muslim as per the nullifiers written even by Bin Baz.
In fact I'm being careful with my words. In Islam to make the haram halal or the halal haram takes you out of the deen. It's a fundamental.
Culture is a weird thing, or certainly can be. And I don't agree that ultimately it's a handful of men telling everyone what to do. Although I guess it started somewhere at some point.
In South Asia, where I was born, there are cultural practices that we in the west would see as weird or plain wrong, the Govt there see them as the same and even religious scholars see it the same but people persist.
Youre just trying to make me say it again, so I'll get more points. Im on to you, shifty knickers!
The sentence with the arm pit was a touch too far as it was taken to mean all of the Middle East, when in fact I just meant Qatar. My attempt at colourful language got away from me for a moment.
Personally I thought you were being rather polite only referring to a backwards shithole like Qatar as the armpit of the world. I can think of other less flattering parts of the body you could have compared it to.
I hope some players celebrate a goal by kissing passionately on the pitch. It would be such an iconic moment and an actual protest rather than all this feck-acting and billy-big-bollocking over armbands.
I think that's misleading if you leave out the context that this happened at a time when Turkey explicitly became a secular state. While its population might be almost entirely Muslim, the constitution deliberately separated religion from the state.
Be respectful to a host country where same sex sex is punishable by death by stoning, where gay people sent for “corrective treatment “, where woman have no rights no laws against domestic abuse to girls or woman, where woman who complain get sent to mental hospitals and where woman can’t leave the country without permission from husband or father,
Are you taking the p!ss
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Will fans be allowed to wave the Palestinian flag as a symbol of solidarity with them? What about the players?
If yes, I hope the media will talk about that too, as their human rights are essentially non-existent.
If yes, I hope the media will talk about that too, as their human rights are essentially non-existent.
Great, great post.
Awesome post. The bit about not being able to choose one’s sexual orientation, but being able to choose one’s religion should finally put this tedious false equivalence to bed.
What is most worrying about your post is
“You want them to change 100s of years of cultural history in the region to accommodate a select few?”
So we shouldn’t expect anyone to change their culture of persecution if it only effects a few? Wow!
Fact is that gay people and all
woman are persecuted so that is not a few that is over half the population , but even if it was just a small minority, a few that were persecuted , we should equally call for change
Don't worry, some posters will still tell you they can't leave their religious beliefs because it's not "a choice".
I've explained shariah and fiqh to you once. No point repeating.
This is incorrect. The fundamentals have never changed.
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You don't know as much as you think you do.
Phenomenal post.
Oh dear.
In some parts of China they skin dogs alive to make the meat taste better. "Cultural" can only do so much heavy lifting before you just have to accept that someone is cnut. Being Muslim, or Christian, or Buddhist, or whatever else isnt the problem. It's when people use those religions or cultures to excuse terrible actions. Let's take the Catholics as an example. For decades the church protected Paedophiles. Most didnt know, but a few did and said nothing. Even when it was their own children being abused. And then later, when it all came out. All of those Catholics could have said something. But most still said nothing. Between 216,000 and 330,000 children were abused in between 1950 and 2020, and still those collection plates were full.
You can point to many good things in relgions or cultures around the world. But when we talk about the abuses of those religions and cultures, tribalism takes over. Here we are talking about the condoned abuse of LGBT people in Qatar. And instead of talking about that, we are talking about "respecting culture". We are playing the whataboutism game. Why? Because our tribal nature tells us that we have to defend that that we put our stock in. Just like those Catholics who couldn't accept that the church was the villain in this tale. Even Fifa cnut extrodinare, Infantino is chatting a lot shit about how the Europeans should be apologising for the next 3000 years because of "history". Why are we talking about 3000 years of history when the subject should be whats happening right now? Why are we excusing the actions of the present because of others actions in the past? Why are we defending bigotry at all? Its bigotry. Its hate. Its discrimination. It's fecking killing people because they are different. If they were jailing people for being black, or American, or British. Would we have something to say then? Or would it just be "have you tried not being black?" or " Just dont be black in public and it'll be fine." or "just dont sound America/British.". Remember that whole nonsense thing about light skinned black people? "youre fine cos you look like one of us.". It still goes on, where darker skinned people are pushed to the side. But the lighter skinned black people are fine. They're "less threatening". What. The. feck.
Its LGBT people though, so its ok to tell them to just "get back in the closet" Its only for a month after all, right? So whats the harm? But really the question should be, whats the harm in being gay? Or Lesbian? or Bi? Or Trans? Or any of the other letters that are so often over looked? It's not like you have to join in. We live in a world where people are routinely abused for millions of different reasons every day. Qatar wanted to be the centre of attention. Well, they've got that attention they paid so much to get. And this is what that looks like. No one is saying other abuses dont matter. But we are talking about this abuse right now because theres a World Cup going on. Because the attention is there. It's not bigotry to point to injustice and say thats wrong. It's just people seeing something shitty going on and saying fecking stop it. Not because they are brown, or muslim, or live in a dusty country. But because bigotry of any kind is bullshit. And when it's systemic, it's even worse.
As religion being a handful of men telling everyone what to do. It was created by people who wanted to be kings. Thats pretty much it. It's a way of control without wars, and allows for men to inflict their own will over the others without ever lifting a finger. Because the scared, huddled masses will do it for you. Just as long as you promise them paradise, they've do anything. Even killing their own daughters for the crime of being raped. It's no secret that Christianity took things like Christmas and easter so as to incise people of pagan religions to join them. It's all a big round of bullshit meant to control and exert will over people.
Religion, culture, whatever. The moment it harms another living creature, it should be fought against. I might have issues in eating dogs, but I recognise that thats my culture informing that view. Thats cultural. And I accept that. I eat cows, something an Indian might take issue with. But skinning dogs alive? Thats barbaric. Thats cruel. Thats heartbreaking. We in the west might not be much better when it comes to our farming practices, but at least we say something about it. Most of us dont just hide behind culture and call it a day. We used to put black people in chains, THAT was our culture. Should we go back to doing that because "you have to respect the culture"? Of course not. We recognise now that that was something shameful. Drinking and driving used to be our culture. Theres videos of people in the pubs drinking with the cars outside on the day before the law came into an effect, moaning about it saying "why should I not be allowed to drive drunk just because of some lightweights?". Culture. Its nonsense. It's how things were before we learned something new. Like instead of dying of polio, we get a vaccine and dont die of polio. We dont just sit in mud. We learn, we evolve and we dont hold on to archaic practices because "thats how it was done before". We have come so far because we said something. Black people are free to walk the streets, own property, play football, and help starving kids get a meal. If we respected our culture, America, the uk, there would be no Marcus Rashford holding a tory government to account. Those kids wouldnt get meals during the pandemic. We change. We grow. And good things can happen. Are we perfect? No. But we are trying. And thats something. Qatar is not even trying.
Awww.
Countries that allow free speech, free press, tend to evolve over time as people are allowed to challenge the norm and hold those in government and authority to account. These countries are far from perfect but they evolve over time. This is because wherever you go in the world, most people are good and want fairness and tolerance. In countries that don't allow free speech, nothing will change unless it suits the minority in power. This has nothing to do with religion, look at history and as many if not more people have died in the name of Christianity as any other religion. The religion is irrelevant, it is all about the people in power and whether they can be publicly challenged and held to account.
I've explained shariah and fiqh to you once. No point repeating.
This is incorrect. The fundamentals have never changed.
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No idea why this is coming up as me in your quotes - I did not post any of this!