I "respect the culture" when it comes to alcohol, food and dress code or the like, no problem. But anybody who is Ok with Qatar being discriminatory against LGBT people is a pos as far as I'm concerned.
Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful
- Thread starter GaryLifo
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you should definitely smoke weed there
Texas is more a knee pit to be fair...
I had a feeling you would and, despite my earlier post, this is why I genuinely feel there's no point in ever having a debate with a Muslim about Islam.
When one side takes a book that was written 1400 years ago literally and refuses to budge from that position, what hope do you have of trying to justify any opposing point of view?
The Qur'an, at least the interpretation I have read, does not strictly ban alcohol or being intoxicated. It bans being drunk while praying, and it says that alcohol is harmful, but this is different from prohibiting it.
As you say, what we have from the sharia is evidences. And evidence is different from a ruling. It's disingenuous to claim that these rules are not the product of interpretation, within the framework that classical Islam provides. And this is made clear by the existence of the different madhhabs.
There are Muslims around the world with as great a claim to understanding Islam as you, but with radically different understandings of the Sharia and the Sunna.
It's not a choice.
It feels like your only definitive answer would be if Allah came down and told you personally.
It's really bloody easy to prove as well, if you've ever been attracted to anyone you'll know you didn't choose to be. In fact, if you haven't and you're asexual you didn't choose to be either, it just happened/didn't happen.
Its weird you dont want to discuss the point on Muslims countries making lgbt legal. You won't even engage with that point and seems you dont want to have a genuine conversation that will cause you to dig into yourself a bit.
Youre just trying to make me say it again, so I'll get more points. Im on to you, shifty knickers!
The sentence with the arm pit was a touch too far as it was taken to mean all of the Middle East, when in fact I just meant Qatar. My attempt at colourful language got away from me for a moment.
No not at all mate I just was wondering which part of your post was the part that triggered the warning.
Thank you for the response.
Quote me saying anything negative towards any group of people or saying anyone should be treated different based on who they are, I dare you. You specified there should be specific rights that only apply to one group. I simply implied there are human rights, that apply to all people, including LGBT, and if those are respected than everyone is treated right and fairly.
Everyone made a lot of assumptions based on my comment, which said that everyone should be treated equal, including the LGBT. Not sure how that's a controversial view, but it's 2022 and everyone's lost their fecking mind.
It wasn't really a debate however it's not as rigid as you think.
Also the 10 commandments were written way before and things like thou shalt not steal are as relevant today.
Alcohol was prohibited in stages. There is even an explanation for why. At one stage it was about drunk whilst praying. Then there is the order that even a drop is haram. Khamr (intoxication) was completely banned.
No what we have from Sharia are commands. What is halal and what is haram. You're confusing shariah with fiqh.
I don't claim to have a great understanding. I'm simply a student trying to learn. However every Muslim should know that the fundamentals are not open to interpretation or understanding.
This made me smile. Reason being that whenever religion is discussed those who don't follow a religion always speak about proving the existence of God and literally want God to come down and show himself.
But for me just some scientific or whatever would do.
This is the inconsistency I'm talking about. Alcohol was not banned due to the words of the Qur'an, it was banned due to later decisions made by interpreters of the best way to follow Sunna. The Qur'an - the direct word of God, according to Islam - does not prohibit drinking alcohol. That is the work of earthbound interpretations of what God might have meant.
Shari'a is largely the product of interpretation of passages from the Qur'an and the Hadith, by religious scholars. The important semantic distinction here, which pretty much every islamic scholar recognises, is that the Qur'an, and only the Qur'an, is the word of God. You cannot make any assumptions about what these words might mean in a different context without acknowledging that what you are doing is interpreting the literal word of God into something else. Advising against something is different from prohibiting it.
As a student trying to learn, you should stop saying things like this, as it's patently not true according to the history of Islam. The fundamentals have been debated for literally 1400 years. And every generation, and every madhhab, and every geographic variation has had different interpretations.
If only the entity that created an entire universe could have written a book that doesn't create multiple interpretations and widespread confusion.
Given god created homosexuality you'd think he/she/it would have cleared things up. A couple of words such as "It's fine" would have completely changed the lives of gay people throughout the ages.
Given god created homosexuality you'd think he/she/it would have cleared things up. A couple of words such as "It's fine" would have completely changed the lives of gay people throughout the ages.
It's not inconsistentcy you're simply wrong.
The Qur'an bans alcohol. There is literally a verse.
The mujtahids and jurists, in fiqh (not shariah) expanded it to forbidden substances. If you've only read translations then I can see why you maybe confused on this.
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I've explained shariah and fiqh to you once. No point repeating.
This is incorrect. The fundamentals have never changed.
Nature of man to confuse things. Think it was monty python did a sketch about the 10 commandments. The bit about not sleeping with your neighbours wife. The guy says I didn't I slept with the one a few doors down.
Point is people will use and abuse anything for greed and power etc.
Women literally shaved off their hair because now there was nothing to cover.
Saudi kings use a verse about obedience to keep people subjugated. Although it doesn't apply to them.
Etc etc
The fact that innate characteristics which people have no choice in (homosexuality) are being constantly discriminated against due to a set of chosen beliefs surrounding a yet to be proven piece of text is astonishing.
And we then have the latter being used as a defence for homophobia. Religious beliefs are no different to political beliefs. They are beliefs, pure and simple. A personal choice. At least the majority of political beliefs are based on fact. We don’t hesitate to openly criticise someone’s political stance, but then we are forbidden from criticising religious beliefs. Why? Especially if those beliefs create misogyny, homophobia or any form of discrimination/infringement on human rights.
There has been far more uproar over the recent ban on alcohol than there ever has about the LGBT issues with Qatar. Which demonstrates how damned far we’ve got to go on equality in this area.
The mind truly boggles.
And we then have the latter being used as a defence for homophobia. Religious beliefs are no different to political beliefs. They are beliefs, pure and simple. A personal choice. At least the majority of political beliefs are based on fact. We don’t hesitate to openly criticise someone’s political stance, but then we are forbidden from criticising religious beliefs. Why? Especially if those beliefs create misogyny, homophobia or any form of discrimination/infringement on human rights.
There has been far more uproar over the recent ban on alcohol than there ever has about the LGBT issues with Qatar. Which demonstrates how damned far we’ve got to go on equality in this area.
The mind truly boggles.
Never a good sign when the President of FIFA sounds like the more stupid Redcafe posters.
I grew up as a Muslim and most of my family and friends are Muslim. It definitely is as rigid as I think.
Can you hold hands with your gay partner without running the risk of being arrested? Is that respectful enough.
I've read bits and pieces of both the Quran and Bible, but surely you cannot deny that quite a few things are rather open to interpretation? Which I'd say is the reason why, sadly, groups of people still kill or discriminate against each other over their interpretations, because they are as adamant as you are in the conviction they are correct.
It's a nice thing that you are so convicted of your faith and seem to know a lot about it, but I don't understand the insistence or conviction to state that everyone with a different opinion is simply wrong. Especially since other people who claim to be of the same faith say the exact same thing, but hold different convictions (I have a Muslim friend who uses your exact rethoric, albeit in a different language). It's the part of religion that's always irked me.
Re Monty Python, I think they were mocking the Bible, not mankind's ability to interpretate things
Has he said he feels like Ronaldo yet?
And you took that as the comic atheists commenting on the nature of man to confuse things and not on the nonsensical notion of organising society on an unsubstantiated ancient text? Well that sort of ridiculous contortionism or just plain missing the point explains a lot.
I've read bits and pieces of both the Quran and Bible, but surely you cannot deny that quite a few things are rather open to interpretation? Which I'd say is the reason why, sadly, groups of people still kill or discriminate against each other over their interpretations, because they are as adamant as you are in the conviction they are correct.
It's a nice thing that you are so convicted of your faith and seem to know a lot about it, but I don't understand the insistence or conviction to state that everyone with a different opinion is simply wrong. Especially since other people who claim to be of the same faith say the exact same thing, but hold different convictions (I have a Muslim friend who uses your exact rethoric, albeit in a different language). It's the part of religion that's always irked me.
Re Monty Python, I think they were mocking the Bible, not mankind's ability to interpretate things
Aye the monty python example was the only example I could think of in the moment
not the best I agree.Maybe this is a better example.
In the Qur'an there is a verse which says the blood of a Muslim is more sacred than the Kaaba and it's surroundings.
In a nutshell this is about a Muslim killing another Muslim. This is in essence shariah.
From an interpretation or maybe fiqh perspective it could be translated as the area around the Kaaba. Saudi as we know it today or the world. Mujtahids believe it's the last one. And in the classic Arabic it is confirmed. Translated into English it can be all the above depending on one reading it.
Saudi is currently killing Yemenis. By that verse and it's "true" meaning this is a crime. Yet the Saudis don't suddenly adhere to the world but, choosing to focus on Saudi alone. There adherents do taqlid (blind following in a nutshell) and offer that interpretation too.
For me this is no longer about the religion. Yet they try and use religion to justify their actions or excuse their actions. Their followers accept it. Not based on allegiance to the religion but allegiance to Saudi.
While this does seem quite easy to understand an even less interpretable way of formulating it would be. "Don't ever kill other Muslims" (I'd expand it to people in general, but that's another discussion). Regarding people in power abusing religion by distorting it, yeah that's definitely true and happens in all religions. I imagine the Saudi's simply justify it by saying, yeah they're not real Muslims anyway? Or don't they even bother?Aye the monty python example was the only example I could think of in the moment
Maybe this is a better example.
In the Qur'an there is a verse which says the blood of a Muslim is more sacred than the Kaaba and it's surroundings.
In a nutshell this is about a Muslim killing another Muslim. This is in essence shariah.
From an interpretation or maybe fiqh perspective it could be translated as the area around the Kaaba. Saudi as we know it today or the world. Mujtahids believe it's the last one. And in the classic Arabic it is confirmed. Translated into English it can be all the above depending on one reading it.
Saudi is currently killing Yemenis. By that verse and it's "true" meaning this is a crime. Yet the Saudis don't suddenly adhere to the world but, choosing to focus on Saudi alone. There adherents do taqlid (blind following in a nutshell) and offer that interpretation too.
For me this is no longer about the religion. Yet they try and use religion to justify their actions or excuse their actions. Their followers accept it. Not based on allegiance to the religion but allegiance to Saudi.
I like to think I understand what monty python was about. Yes that was a sketch but it imitates real life when you have the very real situation of shaving your head, tbf I just realised I missed out the bit about wearing a wig, because technically it's not your hair so no need to cover it.
I was trying to highlight the lengths people will go to get an interpretation that suits them. It's as funny as/or as absurd as the monty python sketch.
Difference being monty python were purposefully mocking and/joking, whereas the head shavers were claiming to be religious but with a different interpretation. To me the latter are the biggest joke
Using a text to validate oppression and suffering needs more clarity than you are bringing to the table.
I am a gay man myself. I’ve seen first hand how these so called religions discriminate against us. And I always see how easy it is for some heterosexuals on here, and elsewhere, to dismiss the problem because it simply doesn’t impact them in the same way. “Don’t like it, don’t go”.
Also bear in mind that just because someone isn’t making homophobic comments, it doesn’t mean they aren’t thinking them, or saying them behind closed doors. There’s a huge swathe of closet homophobes, and closet racists for that matter.
I used to date a Muslim man of Libyan descent. The psychological trauma and torment his religion caused him due to his sexuality was devastating. He couldn’t live with himself on a daily basis. He couldn’t tell anyone out of fear of being attacked by those within the Libyan community in Manchester. This is in the UK, not some strict Islamic nation.
Sometimes he would even say to me that we are both vile disgusting humans. That what we do and feel is wrong and we should be ashamed. His beliefs caused him so much self loathing. It always blew my mind that he wouldn’t ever question them, but always questioned his sexuality. Yet his beliefs are chosen, his sexuality is not. He would continue to believe and obey, despite the fact they were telling him he didn’t deserve to live if he continued along this path.
This had its own impact on me as well, but it was nothing compared to what he was going through. A never ending battle with himself.
Of course, this ultimately brought the relationship to a close. He now exclusively dates Muslim women and he will continue to have these inner conflicts until the day he dies. A very sad existence.
Until people address the issues with all religions, instead of affording them total protection from criticism, these issues cannot begin to be resolved.
Also bear in mind that just because someone isn’t making homophobic comments, it doesn’t mean they aren’t thinking them, or saying them behind closed doors. There’s a huge swathe of closet homophobes, and closet racists for that matter.
I used to date a Muslim man of Libyan descent. The psychological trauma and torment his religion caused him due to his sexuality was devastating. He couldn’t live with himself on a daily basis. He couldn’t tell anyone out of fear of being attacked by those within the Libyan community in Manchester. This is in the UK, not some strict Islamic nation.
Sometimes he would even say to me that we are both vile disgusting humans. That what we do and feel is wrong and we should be ashamed. His beliefs caused him so much self loathing. It always blew my mind that he wouldn’t ever question them, but always questioned his sexuality. Yet his beliefs are chosen, his sexuality is not. He would continue to believe and obey, despite the fact they were telling him he didn’t deserve to live if he continued along this path.
This had its own impact on me as well, but it was nothing compared to what he was going through. A never ending battle with himself.
Of course, this ultimately brought the relationship to a close. He now exclusively dates Muslim women and he will continue to have these inner conflicts until the day he dies. A very sad existence.
Until people address the issues with all religions, instead of affording them total protection from criticism, these issues cannot begin to be resolved.
England and Wales have confirmed they will continue wearing their own armbands not FIFA's.
This question comes up a lot but can you really separate the two at this point? Especially when it's whole communities. Certain cultural beliefs are so ingrained it might as well be religion. My family are quite strict wahhabis but some of my friends are barelwi and, while they might disagree on minor stuff, their main beliefs are fairly similar.
I think the problem arises because of translations into other languages. The classical Arabic of the Qur'an and the way it was written or how it reads is meant to be simple. You don't need a degree to understand it. It was aimed at the illiterate as well as the learned. The Kaaba is very sacred to Muslims and it was for people before Islam. So using that as a point to show how bad killing a Muslim is was to highlight the severity of doing so.
The Saudis use a verse and hadith which speaks of obeying a "khalif" even if he is bad. The Saudi salafis follow this. Yet if you read the full verse and hadiths then it doesn't include the Saudi royal families. But that is a longer discussion and not sure here is the right place.
Those in Saudi who oppose are locked up. In fact there is a place in Saudi where you will only find women and children. Majority (80%+) of the men are in prison. Because they spoke out against the regime over various things. This alone maybe why you see public support from the people for the regime
I'd be very interested to continue this conversation with you. Especially the notion of "strict Wahhabi". I'm just not sure here is the place.
If by wahabbi you mean what I have come to believe it is (based on people around me) then I would disagree with you on the minor stuff comment.
The difference between Barelwis and Deobandis and salafis (who all get called wahabbi by Barelwis specifically) are disagreements in Tawheed. Which is the number one fundamental in Islam. This is in no way minor stuff.
This was never my premise tbf.
At the risk of repeating myself the initial conversation, from me, was in a wider context. I've been quite clear in saying with specifically the LGBTQ issue I am, let's say lacking.
But if I may use some different examples, it's absolutely ok not to pray 5 times a day, it's absolutely ok to drink alcohol. I do pray 5 times a day and don't drink alcohol. Because I claim to be a Muslim and these are things I have understanding of from an islamic perspective.
On these issue which I do have an understanding of, or I like to think I do, human rights are not my determining factor. For me it's what I believe to be a higher authority.
My basic message is still no compulsion in the deen/faith. So I would never discriminate or be unjust to somebody who does drink or doesn't pray. Neither would I knock on their door and tell them as an individual. At the same time I would not let a drunk person/friend into my house. I would however pick them up and take them to theirs if they were passed out on the street. I would happily go to a meal with them but not a pub/club. And if asked or engaged in a discussion I would certainly tell them my view.