Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

JuriM said:
You simply ain't very bright. We all know the way how Qatar got their WC was a shambles. Now if you look behind all the World Cup, Eurovision or Olympic Hosts, they all say that once the event starts they live for their guests fully, not that all the guests now have to do as they want now and abandon all their own free mind.
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Qatar WC may well be a shambles, but I don't think "we" all know the "way". I mean some people seem confused about England's bid and they didn't. It all seems to be folk shouting bribery but that ain't it.

And no one lives for the "guests fully". FIFA for example take over zones of countries when granting WC rights. The rest of the country, which ever it is, isn't affected.

I support some folks points on here re rights and equality etc. Even if I had issues I still respect a person's stance. However to full resolve things going forward we need to be a little bit honest imo.
 
krazyrobus said:
The original post was about being "respectful" and not doing PDA. Are you now conflating that to spousal or child abuse? Obviously it would be obtuse to say that we can't dictate what people do in their house or else people could run fecking rape dens in their house and use that as an excuse, stop being deliberately obtuse.
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I feel like you're so close to understanding.

Now with the bit in bold in mind, rethink your application of the "my house, my rules" logic a situation in which homosexuality is illegal and homosexuals are abused/mistreated within a "house".
 
krazyrobus said:
The original post was about being "respectful" and not doing PDA. Are you now conflating that to spousal or child abuse? Obviously it would be obtuse to say that we can't dictate what people do in their house or else people could run fecking rape dens in their house and use that as an excuse, stop being deliberately obtuse.
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But your point is much more general, wider than PDA's. Its just respect their rules or leave isn't it?

Or are you saying obey the rules on PDA's but challenge everything else?
 
krazyrobus said:
The vitriol of this thread. Whether you think it is backwards or not, it is still their house. Who the feck goes into someone's house and tries to dictate rules to them. That is some real imperial behaviour. Some people hate you and some places are poor choices to visit. Get over it. You won't find me, an african, setting foot in Eastern Europe or China for that matter since I would be treated like dirt. No need to make a whole thing about it, just don't support/go.
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just because you don't want to go somewhere doesn't mean other people should have to give up the right to go where they want. there's nothing "imperial" about it - whatever that even means
 
JuriM said:
It's not their house, they were bidding for the World Cup themselves and they knew then already that they have to respect all the countries and people taking part in the tournament - if you want to live in the middle ages, then go for it, but don't expect all the World coming to visit to come to the middle ages with you.

World Cup belongs to everyone and everyone can freely express their free speech and beliefs as they want.
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totally agree
 
krazyrobus said:
The vitriol of this thread. Whether you think it is backwards or not, it is still their house. Who the feck goes into someone's house and tries to dictate rules to them. That is some real imperial behaviour. Some people hate you and some places are poor choices to visit. Get over it. You won't find me, an african, setting foot in Eastern Europe or China for that matter since I would be treated like dirt. No need to make a whole thing about it, just don't support/go.
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Yes because famously you can break any law you like in your own house. Great analogy.

To answer your question about who goes into someone's house and tells them what to do; if it's a human rights issue, the the answer is everyone with a backbone.
 
moses said:
Yes because famously you can break any law you like in your own house. Great analogy.

To answer your question about who goes into someone's house and tells them what to do; if it's a human rights issue, the the answer is everyone with a backbone.
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Well fecking said!
 
krazyrobus said:
The vitriol of this thread. Whether you think it is backwards or not, it is still their house. Who the feck goes into someone's house and tries to dictate rules to them. That is some real imperial behaviour. Some people hate you and some places are poor choices to visit. Get over it. You won't find me, an african, setting foot in Eastern Europe or China for that matter since I would be treated like dirt. No need to make a whole thing about it, just don't support/go.
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So you're ok with racism and homophobia not being challenged in countries that happen to be hosting the WC ?
 
Its an absolute disgrace for the Qataris to have these views in this day and age but I don't remember the same kind of outrage for South Africa or Russia, two countries which I'm pretty sure are also not the most LGBT friendly either?
 
Yik said:
Its an absolute disgrace for the Qataris to have these views in this day and age but I don't remember the same kind of outrage for South Africa or Russia, two countries which I'm pretty sure are also not the most LGBT friendly either?
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A lot has changed in the last 4 years.
 
mctrials23 said:
A lot has changed in the last 4 years.
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Yes no doubt, twitter et al weren't quite as big in 2010 definitely and you're right even from 4 years ago there is now more activism and awareness online, not just for LGBT but also BLM etc which is no bad thing.

I grew up in the Middle East so I'm well aware of the numerous things that are unimaginably backwards over there. You'd ideally want world cups to happen in multicultural and tolerant societies but that'd mean World Cups only happen in Western countries which doesn't sit right with me either. I think part of the reason a lot of the whataboutery happens is because a lot of people who aren't white think the uproar with Qatar is just egregious when Russia for a lot of non-white people is just as off putting. As a brown person I wouldn't have been welcome in Russia and therefore never even entertained the idea of going.
 
People visiting Qatar should respect their values, beliefs and rules.
krazyrobus said:
The vitriol of this thread. Whether you think it is backwards or not, it is still their house. Who the feck goes into someone's house and tries to dictate rules to them. That is some real imperial behaviour. Some people hate you and some places are poor choices to visit. Get over it. You won't find me, an african, setting foot in Eastern Europe or China for that matter since I would be treated like dirt. No need to make a whole thing about it, just don't support/go.
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the whole world turned against Qatar for this. People who are asking for their beliefs to be respected are not respecting the Qatari’s beliefs.

Qatar did not ask homosexuals to reconsider their convictions, they just asked them to respect the fact that they are going to a country that doesn’t accept it. Whether they liKe it or not; they have to respect the Qatari rules which stem from religious beliefs. People should stop the double standards!
 
united for life said:
People visiting Qatar should respect their values, beliefs and rules.


the whole world turned against Qatar for this. People who are asking for their beliefs to be respected are not respecting the Qatari’s beliefs.

Qatar did not ask homosexuals to reconsider their convictions, they just asked them to respect the fact that they are going to a country that doesn’t accept it. Whether they liKe it or not; they have to respect the Qatari rules which stem from religious beliefs. People should stop the double standards!
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Homosexuality isn’t a ‘conviction.’ It’s not a fairy tale like religion is.

Jesus fecking christ.
 
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united for life said:
People visiting Qatar should respect their values, beliefs and rules.


the whole world turned against Qatar for this. People who are asking for their beliefs to be respected are not respecting the Qatari’s beliefs.

Qatar did not ask homosexuals to reconsider their convictions, they just asked them to respect the fact that they are going to a country that doesn’t accept it. Whether they liKe it or not; they have to respect the Qatari rules which stem from religious beliefs. People should stop the double standards!
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Yes, people should. Like those chatting shit about respect. Qatar invited the international community to their house for a party. You dont get to then pick and choose who shows up. And sure as shit dont get to bitch and moan about bigotry when the bitching and moaning is about the owner of the house being a bigoted cnut. If Qatar doesnt like LGBT people, they shouldn't be inviting them to come to the party. Qatar is blatantly sports washing here, and they can't even do that right.

The international community is all of us. It's not one backwards hell hole in some dusty arm pit of the world where sexism, racism, bigotry, torture, murder and feck knows what else is allowed to take place under the guise of religious freedoms. No matter how much money they stuffed into the pockets of FIFA cnuts. Going forward every nation that wants to hold the games should be forced to meet a certain standard of human rights. If it doesnt meet them, they feck off. Plain and simple. Whats really fecking disgusting here is that in 2014 FIFA FORCED Brazil to allow drinking inside the stadiums because Budweiser was a sponsor. Yet, millions of LGBT fans around the world are told "respect the culture". Funny how that "respect" didnt extend to Brazil.

The absolute state of people in here defending this shit. If they were saying dont be black in public, I'm sure that would be totally fine as well, right? Because ReSpEcT tHe CuLtUrE!!!!! Hey, remember when 22 year old Dutch girl called Laura spend 3 months in jail for reporting her own rape? Remember that she got a 1 year suspended sentence and deported? Remember that her rapist got a few lashes for being drunk in pubic and adultery? Just in case Ive been at all ambiguous, feck Qatar. feck its laws. feck its culture. And feck anyone who defends that shit.
 
Norman Brownbutter said:
Yes, people should. Like those chatting shit about respect. Qatar invited the international community to their house for a party. You dont get to then pick and choose who shows up. And sure as shit dont get to bitch and moan about bigotry when the bitching and moaning is about the owner of the house being a bigoted cnut. If Qatar doesnt like LGBT people, they shouldn't be inviting them to come to the party. Qatar is blatantly sports washing here, and they can't even do that right.

The international community is all of us. It's not one backwards hell hole in some dusty arm pit of the world where sexism, racism, bigotry, torture, murder and feck knows what else is allowed to take place under the guise of religious freedoms. No matter how much money they stuffed into the pockets of FIFA cnuts. Going forward every nation that wants to hold the games should be forced to meet a certain standard of human rights. If it doesnt meet them, they feck off. Plain and simple. Whats really fecking disgusting here is that in 2014 FIFA FORCED Brazil to allow drinking inside the stadiums because Budweiser was a sponsor. Yet, millions of LGBT fans around the world are told "respect the culture". Funny how that "respect" didnt extend to Brazil.

The absolute state of people in here defending this shit. If they were saying dont be black in public, I'm sure that would be totally fine as well, right? Because ReSpEcT tHe CuLtUrE!!!!! Hey, remember when 22 year old Dutch girl called Laura spend 3 months in jail for reporting her own rape? Remember that she got a 1 year suspended sentence and deported? Remember that her rapist got a few lashes for being drunk in pubic and adultery? Just in case Ive been at all ambiguous, feck Qatar. feck its laws. feck its culture. And feck anyone who defends that shit.
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x 1000000

Well said!!!!

There's no discussion nor middle ground here, we're speaking about basic human rights of acknowledging that LGQBT people EXIST. Take it or leave, Qatar should have been told to piss off in denying acknowledgement of people who exist.
 
calodo2003 said:
Homosexuality isn’t a ‘conviction.’ It’s not a fairy tale like religion is.

Jesus fecking christ.
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Few times you've gone with the "religion is a fairy tale" line.

Why is it ok for you to keep saying that and offending religious people but you want to be the Bastian of diversity for the LGBTQ community.
 
Roane said:
Few times you've gone with the "religion is a fairy tale" line.

Why is it ok for you to keep saying that and offending religious people but you want to be the Bastian of diversity for the LGBTQ community.
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Because religion is a choice, homosexuality isn't.
 
The Boy said:
Because religion is a choice, homosexuality isn't.
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My point is about offending one group whilst defending another.

How is that different to what the qatari guy is doing?

I don't want to get into the choice argument here because it digresses from the discussion. However would make an interesting thread maybe?
 
Roane said:
My point is about offending one group whilst defending another.

How is that different to what the qatari guy is doing?

I don't want to get into the choice argument here because it digresses from the discussion. However would make an interesting thread maybe?
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I know what you're saying but comparing religion to sexuality is a false equivalence as one is a choice in and one is as much a part of who you are like skin colour.

Being a Muslim/Christian etc doesn't automatically make you homophobic, that's a choice or an interpretation that you choose to make and believe. I guess you could argue people making that choice do not deserve any respect for it.
 
The Boy said:
I know what you're saying but comparing religion to sexuality is a false equivalence as one is a choice in and one is as much a part of who you are like skin colour.

Being a Muslim/Christian etc doesn't automatically make you homophobic, that's a choice or an interpretation that you choose to make and believe. I guess you could argue people making that choice do not deserve any respect for it.
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I wasn't comparing in my comments tbf.

And I don't think this is the right place for it, but I don't think it is a false equivalence.
 
Roane said:
I wasn't comparing in my comments tbf.

And I don't think this is the right place for it, but I don't think it is a false equivalence.
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I am sure @calodo2003 can answer for himself, but I can understand his frustration with some posters talking about sexuality like it is something that can be turned on and off. Calling religion a fairy tale maybe harsh, but using religion, tradition and culture to defend homophobia is appalling.

Human rights should be universal regardless of which country you are in.
 
Norman Brownbutter said:
Yes, people should. Like those chatting shit about respect. Qatar invited the international community to their house for a party. You dont get to then pick and choose who shows up. And sure as shit dont get to bitch and moan about bigotry when the bitching and moaning is about the owner of the house being a bigoted cnut. If Qatar doesnt like LGBT people, they shouldn't be inviting them to come to the party. Qatar is blatantly sports washing here, and they can't even do that right.

The international community is all of us. It's not one backwards hell hole in some dusty arm pit of the world where sexism, racism, bigotry, torture, murder and feck knows what else is allowed to take place under the guise of religious freedoms. No matter how much money they stuffed into the pockets of FIFA cnuts. Going forward every nation that wants to hold the games should be forced to meet a certain standard of human rights. If it doesnt meet them, they feck off. Plain and simple. Whats really fecking disgusting here is that in 2014 FIFA FORCED Brazil to allow drinking inside the stadiums because Budweiser was a sponsor. Yet, millions of LGBT fans around the world are told "respect the culture". Funny how that "respect" didnt extend to Brazil.

The absolute state of people in here defending this shit. If they were saying dont be black in public, I'm sure that would be totally fine as well, right? Because ReSpEcT tHe CuLtUrE!!!!! Hey, remember when 22 year old Dutch girl called Laura spend 3 months in jail for reporting her own rape? Remember that she got a 1 year suspended sentence and deported? Remember that her rapist got a few lashes for being drunk in pubic and adultery? Just in case Ive been at all ambiguous, feck Qatar. feck its laws. feck its culture. And feck anyone who defends that shit.
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“backwards hell hole in some dusty arm pit of the world”, this just shows how you think. You want people to respect you buy you have no respect for anyone.

you opened so many topics here that I really do not want to get into. Some are wrong and some are right, but I do not want to get into this discussion about how to make the world a better place.
 
Roane said:
Few times you've gone with the "religion is a fairy tale" line.

Why is it ok for you to keep saying that and offending religious people but you want to be the Bastian of diversity for the LGBTQ community.
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Religion is a choice, I’m ridiculing the choice.
 
The Boy said:
I am sure @calodo2003 can answer for himself, but I can understand his frustration with some posters talking about sexuality like it is something that can be turned on and off. Calling religion a fairy tale maybe harsh, but using religion, tradition and culture to defend homophobia is appalling.

Human rights should be universal regardless of which country you are in.
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people have the right to be homosexual, it is not my business. But again, it all goes back to religious beliefs which Qatar can not ignore. Why can’t the lgbt community understand and respect that? They keep asking everyone to understand and respect them, yet they do not do the same. This is not homophobia; this is Qatar following their religious beliefs, don’t ask them not to…
 
united for life said:
people have the right to be homosexual, it is not my business. But again, it all goes back to religious beliefs which Qatar can not ignore. Why can’t the lgbt community understand and respect that? They keep asking everyone to understand and respect them, yet they do not do the same. This is not homophobia; this is Qatar following their religious beliefs, don’t ask them not to…
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Religion is a choice, homosexuality is not.

This is not a difficult concept to understand.
 
united for life said:
But again, it all goes back to religious beliefs which Qatar can not ignore.
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This is rubbish, of course they can decide not to be homophobic, there are plenty of Muslims all over the world, who make this choice.
 
calodo2003 said:
Religion is a choice, homosexuality isn’t.
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so people are allowed to criticise others’ religious beliefs and call it a fairy tale? That is perfectly fine for you? But having views different than yours about homosexuality is not allowed? You’re serious? What kind of double standards is this?
 
united for life said:
so people are allowed to criticise others’ religious beliefs and call it a fairy tale? That is perfectly fine for you? But having views different than yours about homosexuality is not allowed? You’re serious? What kind of double standards is this?
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I’m criticizing the choice when the choice has created conditions that violate human rights.

There’s no double standard here. Preposterous to think otherwise. A religious view should never take precedent over a human right. They are not equal in the terms of import.
 
united for life said:
so people are allowed to criticise others’ religious beliefs and call it a fairy tale? That is perfectly fine for you? But having views different than yours about homosexuality is not allowed? You’re serious? What kind of double standards is this?
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When religion or culture etc are used to justify for homophobia or any other universal human right they deserve to be challenged.
 
The Boy said:
This is rubbish, of course they can decide not to be homophobic, there are plenty of Muslims all over the world, who make this choice.
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No it’s not rubbish. Muslims have certain beliefs about homosexuality in the Quran. Don’t ask Muslims to disregard that. That is no homophobia, that is people simply practicing their beliefs (which they are entitled to). People have the right to be whatever they want, but do not have the right to offend others in their own country.
 
The Boy said:
When religion or culture etc are used to justify for homophobia or any other universal human right they deserve to be challenged.
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Then you can challenge whatever you want and people can challenge whatever they want. Do not call it names.
 
Sayros said:
But you misunderstand my, and I think others who are making the same point I am, it's not about respecting their culture. I don't respect their culture. It's about knowing you're in their land, in a sovereign nation, with their own backward laws, and it's all nice and good to say there should be human rights everywhere, but unless you can actually enforce that with force, it's not going to change a damn thing for them. It's not even just a gay thing, I think even straight couples aren't allowed to show public displays of affection. No one, I think or hope, is saying that their culture is worthy of respect, at least I'm certainly not saying that, but there is nothing we are doing that's going to change this. The only hope is over time, and it will be likely decades if not more, they'll realize being gay is as natural as being straight and it's really beyond disgusting to hate or hurt someone for how they were born.
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The sight of LGBTQ people living their life may very well have a huge impact on a lot of people. People not sure what they are, and people who thought they were stuck in their ways be like hey, not so bad after all.
 
calodo2003 said:
Religion is a choice, I’m ridiculing the choice.
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That's your view and I can "respect" that without belittling everyone who may have similar views.

For me, as a religious person (in case you hadn't guessed lol) religion is as much a "choice" as my sexuality. I'm not asking for you to agree with that and it's a different discussion.

I just find it hard to understand how a person can make a stand for one thing whilst, in my view, knocking another based on their own belief.

I don't see it different to what the Qatari guy said in all honesty
 
united for life said:
No it’s not rubbish. Muslims have certain beliefs about homosexuality in the Quran. Don’t ask Muslims to disregard that. That is no homophobia, that is people simply practicing their beliefs (which they are entitled to). People have the right to be whatever they want, but do not have the right to offend others in their own country.
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Actually the Quaran has very little to say about homosexuality, reading this thread would have already told you that. The Hadith are another matter, though even those have been interpreted differently by some Imams and it's argued that the demand for compassion implicit in Islam should over ride it and that the way they have been interpreted is shaded by centuries of patriarchal scholarship.

No one is asking Muslims or Christians to disregard their religious texts and being Muslim does not mean you have to be homophobic, it is an interpretation and a choice.

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but discriminating against someone for something they have no choice over ie race or sexuality is inherently wrong, if you disagree with that statement, then you clearly disagree with the idea of universal human rights.
 
calodo2003 said:
I’m criticizing the choice when the choice has created conditions that violate human rights.

There’s no double standard here. Preposterous to think otherwise. A religious view should never take precedent over a human right. They are not equal in the terms of import.
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Again maybe not the place for it but human rights according to who? You? Me? What makes my view more valid than yours?
 
Roane said:
That's your view and I can "respect" that without belittling everyone who may have similar views.

For me, as a religious person (in case you hadn't guessed lol) religion is as much a "choice" as my sexuality. I'm not asking for you to agree with that and it's a different discussion.

I just find it hard to understand how a person can make a stand for one thing whilst, in my view, knocking another based on their own belief.

I don't see it different to what the Qatari guy said in all honesty
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Simple. Homosexuality isn’t a choice, following a religion is. Mental gymnastics are just that.

This isn’t a difficult exercise.
 
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