Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

The Boy said:
Actually the Quaran has very little to say about homosexuality, reading this thread would have already told you that. The Hadith are another matter, though even those have been interpreted differently by some Imams and it's argued that the demand for compassion implicit in Islam should over ride it and that the way they have been interpreted is shaded by centuries of patriarchal scholarship.

No one is asking Muslims or Christians to disregard their religious texts and being Muslim does not mean you have to be homophobic, it is an interpretation and a choice.

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but discriminating against someone for something they have no choice over ie race or sexuality is inherently wrong, if you disagree with that statement, then you clearly disagree with the idea of universal human rights.
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The Qur'an has little to say about most things, simply because it would be a enormous volume if it went into detail. The Hadith are the clarifications of the things mentioned in the Qur'an. So wudhu before prayer is mentioned in the Qur'an but the process and detail is in the Hadith. Same with all things.
 
Roane said:
Again maybe not the place for it but human rights according to who? You? Me? What makes my view more valid than yours?
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No definitely not us!

The universal declaration of human rights was drawn up by the United Nations with all member nations being asked to contribute and set out at a global level the fundamental rights and freedoms of all human beings and it clearly inlcludes race, colour, sex and language.

I have nothing against religion and people's choices at all, but I do have an issue with some (far from all religious people) using it as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination goes against everything that all main religions especially Islam and the teachings of Jesus stand for.
 
The Boy said:
Actually the Quaran has very little to say about homosexuality, reading this thread would have already told you that. The Hadith are another matter, though even those have been interpreted differently by some Imams and it's argued that the demand for compassion implicit in Islam should over ride it and that the way they have been interpreted is shaded by centuries of patriarchal scholarship.

No one is asking Muslims or Christians to disregard their religious texts and being Muslim does not mean you have to be homophobic, it is an interpretation and a choice.

I don't know how many times it has to be said, but discriminating against someone for something they have no choice over ie race or sexuality is inherently wrong, if you disagree with that statement, then you clearly disagree with the idea of universal human rights.
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i am a Muslim and I know very well how clear the Quran is about this topic. It is very clear actually. i also understand that I can not dictate what others want to do, but all I can ask if for them to abide by the rules of a Muslim country. It is not against human rights, but I think we can only agree to disagree on this. Never ending debate.

hope it’s a good football tournament at least!
 
united for life said:
It is very clear actually.
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This is just not correct, hence the years of debate and many different interpretations. Like I say the Hadith are clearer but again many Muslims still debate their exact meaning and how they should be interpreted.

united for life said:
hope it’s a good football tournament at least!
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This we can agree on!
 
Religion is a choice that people make. Sexuality is something you are born with. It’s really dumb that people try to make out that the two are equivalent. Something you choose to believe in should not carry the same weight as something you are born with.

That is not a hard concept to wrap your mind around.
 
united for life said:
i am a Muslim and I know very well how clear the Quran is about this topic. It is very clear actually. i also understand that I can not dictate what others want to do, but all I can ask if for them to abide by the rules of a Muslim country. It is not against human rights, but I think we can only agree to disagree on this. Never ending debate.

hope it’s a good football tournament at least!
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LGBTQ+ rights are human rights. You can't chose to "agree to disagree" with that.
 
calodo2003 said:
Simple. Homosexuality isn’t a choice, following a religion is. Mental gymnastics are just that.

This isn’t a difficult exercise.
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The Boy said:
No definitely not us!

The universal declaration of human rights was drawn up by the United Nations with all member nations being asked to contribute and set out at a global level the fundamental rights and freedoms of all human beings and it clearly inlcludes race, colour, sex and language.

I have nothing against religion and people's choices at all, but I do have an issue with some (far from all religious people) using it as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination goes against everything that all main religions especially Islam and the teachings of Jesus stand for.
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Yeah we can agree on the no discrimination points. I am a Muslim by the way, quite a practising one. I have no love for Qatar, Saudi etc as some of what they practise is completely wrong from my religious perspective.

A question I'm kind of afraid to ask as I think most will just go on the attack but for me it's a genuine one is the discussion around choice and born with it for religion and homosexuality.

I'm a bit more versed on the religious arguments. Totally not on the homosexuality issue tbf. But want to learn. The general sheikh Google doesn't provide much of an insight as it's either yes it's a choice by religious groups and no it isn't by LGBTQ organisations.

Lik I say I will probably get hammered for even raising it but not sure how we learn without asking and researching
 
People who bang on about respecting the culture are missing the point completely. Being gay isn’t an ailment or a deliberate transgressive expression, it is part of being who you are. It shouldn’t matter to anyone. You can’t moderate your “gayness”. The blatant ignorance by some astound me.
 
calodo2003 said:
Truly don’t know how to reply to the egregious mental gymnastics on display here.
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Call it what you like. What gives you a right to call all religion a fairy tale whilst advocating the rights of someone else?

To me that's as bad as the Qatari guy
 
Roane said:
Yeah we can agree on the no discrimination points. I am a Muslim by the way, quite a practising one. I have no love for Qatar, Saudi etc as some of what they practise is completely wrong from my religious perspective.

A question I'm kind of afraid to ask as I think most will just go on the attack but for me it's a genuine one is the discussion around choice and born with it for religion and homosexuality.

I'm a bit more versed on the religious arguments. Totally not on the homosexuality issue tbf. But want to learn. The general sheikh Google doesn't provide much of an insight as it's either yes it's a choice by religious groups and no it isn't by LGBTQ organisations.

Lik I say I will probably get hammered for even raising it but not sure how we learn without asking and researching
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Assuming you’re Heterosexual… I assume you didn’t hit puberty and make a decision to be attracted to women?

same goes for being gay. It’s just there. It’s in their entire being. It’s no more of a choice than being right handed for example.
 
I once remember reading that in ancient Greece. Men would have rape boys and have sex with other men all the time. Then when those boys grew up, they would then go onto rape boys and have sex with men, as that was the order of things.
Sex with women was only used in a manner to procreate - sex with men and boys was out of pleasure (probably oversimplifying there).
Were all of those men born with innate paedophilia and homosexuality? Or do societal norms & culture effect sexual attraction?
 
Ole'sattheWheel said:
I once remember reading that in ancient Greece. Men would have rape boys and have sex with other men all the time. Then when those boys grew up, they would then go onto rape boys and have sex with men, as that was the order of things.
Sex with women was only used in a manner to procreate - sex with men and boys was out of pleasure (probably oversimplifying there).
Were all of those men born with innate paedophilia and homosexuality? Or do societal norms & culture effect sexual attraction?
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This has to be one of the more inane and offensive comparisons I've read on the caf. Kudos.
 
Eleven. said:
Assuming you’re Heterosexual… I assume you didn’t hit puberty and make a decision to be attracted to women?

same goes for being gay. It’s just there. It’s in their entire being. It’s no more of a choice than being right handed for example.
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I am yes. I am 50 years old and wasn't born in UK. I mention this simply because I don't know how much of what youre asking was a conscious decision and how much of it was just because it is so.

Coming into a different environment at a young age did impact on how I saw the world and decisions I made. At times I literally followed the flow and other times I did things to fit in, in what was a different culture and lifestyle.

As I've grown certain things have changed. Some ive adapted to others I haven't and some I refuse to, some may see this as being set in my ways I like to think it's because I don't feel I have to follow a "flow" and can make my own decisions.

Funnily enough my grandad, dad, mum, other members of my family were born left handed. But are now right handed in terms of writing etc
 
Pickle85 said:
This has to be one of the more inane and offensive comparisons I've read on the caf. Kudos.
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I wasn't meaning to be offensive, apologies. I genuinely think there is nuance to sexuality that hasn't been scientifically proven or discussed yet. The fact is I don't know if sexuality is innate or not.
It certainly feels that way to me, because I can only feel my own innate sexuality. But I am posing the question that maybe there are cultural factors that drive peoples' desires to whom they want to have sex with.
 
Roane said:
Yeah we can agree on the no discrimination points. I am a Muslim by the way, quite a practising one. I have no love for Qatar, Saudi etc as some of what they practise is completely wrong from my religious perspective.

A question I'm kind of afraid to ask as I think most will just go on the attack but for me it's a genuine one is the discussion around choice and born with it for religion and homosexuality.

I'm a bit more versed on the religious arguments. Totally not on the homosexuality issue tbf. But want to learn. The general sheikh Google doesn't provide much of an insight as it's either yes it's a choice by religious groups and no it isn't by LGBTQ organisations.

Lik I say I will probably get hammered for even raising it but not sure how we learn without asking and researching
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Sorry, I think you're asking if homosexuality is a choice or not, to be clear, it is not it is part of who you are in the same way eye colour or height is. Think about your sexuality, I am presuming you are heterosexual (apologies if I am wrong) did you consciously choose to be attracted to women or is it natural for you?
 
It’s absolutely baffling to me that any human being in here, regardless of religion/culture, thinks that LGBTQ+ people have CHOSEN to be that way - or been influenced by society.
 
Eleven. said:
It’s absolutely baffling to me that any human being in here, regardless of religion/culture, thinks that LGBTQ+ people have CHOSEN to be that way - or been influenced by society.
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For the record I don't THINK (or claim to know if) either of those things are true. I was asking a non-rhetorical question to further a nuanced discussion, rather than one that just aims to claim a black & white known truth that people are said to be wrong for believing one way or another.
I feel like my sexuality is innate - but can I trust that? I don't think that's something I can be objective about
 
The Boy said:
Sorry, I think you're asking if homosexuality is a choice or not, to be clear, it is not it is part of who you are in the same way eye colour or height is. Think about your sexuality, I am presuming you are heterosexual (apologies if I am wrong) did you consciously choose to be attracted to women or is it natural for you?
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I answered some of this above.

Again at the risk of being slated here the truth is I don't know. Mainly because it isn't something I've ever really looked into.

When I mentioned sheikh Google, this is something we talk about in the Muslim community because everyone is an expert because the Google something.

I'm just trying to be honest, not making a statement. I did "sheikh Google" the issue of homosexuality and there is no definitive "yes" to it being a choice or not. Again I accept this is because it depends on who is arguing what.

I would like to learn though but as with many things to ask a question gets a person villified.
 
Human rights are independent of religion, religion is between oneself and God and not imposed on others .I've been mostly critical of the criticism being put on Qatar but won't ever defend their LGBT+ laws. That's something one cannot defend.

There are certainly some cultural aspects that should be respected though such as PDA, wearing scantly clothes and drinking heavily in public.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
There are certainly some cultural aspects that should be respected though such as PDA, wearing scantly clothes and drinking heavily in public.
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It's a world cup in very warm weather.

If Qatar don't like shirtless and drunk men hugging each other in public then they must not have watched any previous world cup.
 
duffer said:
It's a world cup in very warm weather.

If Qatar don't like shirtless and drunk men hugging each other in public then they must not have watched any previous world cup.
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Those people live in that same weather and even in summer. I'm not saying you can't wear t shirts, it's just wearing bikinis, really short skirts etc. No one is saying you have to wear a burka.

Regarding drinking, football is played all over the globe and in many countries that don't have drunken fans. It's really disrespectful to say they should go against their culture just because one set of fans like to get boozed up. That has nothing to do with football itself and someone visiting can easily go without it, unless they are an alcoholic that is.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Those people live in that same weather and even in summer. I'm not saying you can't wear t shirts, it's just wearing bikinis, really short skirts etc. No one is saying you have to wear a burka.

Regarding drinking, football is played all over the globe and in many countries that don't have drunken fans. It's really disrespectful to say they should go against their culture just because one set of fans like to get boozed up. That has nothing to do with football itself and someone visiting can easily go without it, unless they are an alcoholic that is.
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So just women who have to cover up? Hmm.

As for booze, Qatar have accepted a ton of money from Budweiser as the official beer supplier, they've made clear that they are happy for people to get sloshed.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Those people live in that same weather and even in summer. I'm not saying you can't wear t shirts, it's just wearing bikinis, really short skirts etc. No one is saying you have to wear a burka.

Regarding drinking, football is played all over the globe and in many countries that don't have drunken fans. It's really disrespectful to say they should go against their culture just because one set of fans like to get boozed up. That has nothing to do with football itself and someone visiting can easily go without it, unless they are an alcoholic that is.
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Interesting that this focuses exclusively on women (as I can't imagine Qatar would be too keen on men wearing bikinis) but the implication seems to be that shirtless men are fine.
 
What baffles me most about religion (applies to all of them) is that everyone always uses excuses like: "You/they are interpreting it wrong", "It's taken out of context", "You're not a believer so you wouldn't understand"...

Yet the christians in murica are heavily against abortion and homosexuality because their book of fairy tales tell them so. Homosexuals are being hung and thrown from roofs in countries where islam is used as law. Being atheist or homosexual is punishable by death in some as well...

Have those countries/people interpreted their book wrong?

What surprises me the most is that FIFA now is coming out with excuses about this like this is news and they didn't know. I wouldn't even consider setting my foot in such a country... I might have to go home without it
 
krazyrobus said:
How any WC winner wins their bid is a shambles, thus irrelevant.

On to living for their guests fully, I don't know about that, having lived in a host nation during a world cup, definately not the general vibe out here.

There only thing was how much money can be made from said guests and whether this stadiums will be white elephants after the WC. Qatar being a rich as it does, doesn't seem to have that concern/care to maximise the money to be earnt.
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How can corruption be irrelevant? If we just bury our heads in the sand and accept it, things will never change.

There is a big difference between respect and just looking the other way to archaic and disgusting attitudes/laws towards certain human beings.
 
united for life said:
why do you allow yourself to oppose religion while you do not allow other to have their views on homosexuality?
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His is a view on religion.

Qatar has a law on homosexuality.

You see the difference?

The poster isn't suggesting a legal ban on practicing religion. He just doesn't personally like it. Where as Qatae doesn't just dislike homosexuality, they've made it punishable by law.
 
Roane said:
Call it what you like. What gives you a right to call all religion a fairy tale whilst advocating the rights of someone else?

To me that's as bad as the Qatari guy
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It was me. I gave him that right. He deserved it.
hasanejaz88 said:
Those people live in that same weather and even in summer. I'm not saying you can't wear t shirts, it's just wearing bikinis, really short skirts etc. No one is saying you have to wear a burka.

Regarding drinking, football is played all over the globe and in many countries that don't have drunken fans. It's really disrespectful to say they should go against their culture just because one set of fans like to get boozed up. That has nothing to do with football itself and someone visiting can easily go without it, unless they are an alcoholic that is.
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Why the feck bid for the world cup then?

It's like hosting the Oktoberfest and ask that no one eat bretzels or drink beer.
 
duffer said:
So just women who have to cover up? Hmm.
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Pickle85 said:
Interesting that this focuses exclusively on women (as I can't imagine Qatar would be too keen on men wearing bikinis) but the implication seems to be that shirtless men are fine.
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Abizzz said:
It was me. I gave him that right. He deserved it.

Why the feck bid for the world cup then?

It's like hosting the Oktoberfest and ask that no one eat bretzels or drink beer.
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Extremely ignorant comments that highlight the Islamophobia that I was talking about before.

@duffer what do you mean by 'cover up'? What perception of womens clothing do you have in the middle east, especially expats?

Here's an excerpt explaining quite simply what I mean by dress culture from the British Embassy:

The British Embassy in Qatar advises: “Women in Qatar are not required to wear the hijab nor are they expected to wear an abaya. However, note should be taken of the local dress code. Men and women should cover the shoulders and upper arms, and shorts or skirts/dresses should fall to or below the knee.”

Even the rules about arms and shoulders is loosely applied, how exactly is any of that unacceptable? This clearly shows you have no clue and have never been to a middle eastern country and are basing your comments purely on stereotypes.

@Pickle85 are women allowed to be shirtless in western countries? Men can go around without a shirt but never seen a women do it in public.

@Abizzz that's a dumb comparison. Oktoberfest is about beer and German culture so ofcourse you can't have one without them. What exactly do low cut skirts have to do with football culture?
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Extremely ignorant comments that highlight the Islamophobia that I was talking about before.

@duffer what do you mean by 'cover up'? What perception of womens clothing do you have in the middle east, especially expats?
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I mentioned drunken, shirtless men and you replied talking about bikinis and miniskirts. You brought up women's clothing not me, why?
 
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hasanejaz88 said:
Extremely ignorant comments that highlight the Islamophobia that I was talking about before.

@duffer what do you mean by 'cover up'? What perception of womens clothing do you have in the middle east, especially expats?

Here's an excerpt explaining quite simply what I mean by dress culture from the British Embassy:

The British Embassy in Qatar advises: “Women in Qatar are not required to wear the hijab nor are they expected to wear an abaya. However, note should be taken of the local dress code. Men and women should cover the shoulders and upper arms, and shorts or skirts/dresses should fall to or below the knee.”

Even the rules about arms and shoulders is loosely applied, how exactly is any of that unacceptable? This clearly shows you have no clue and have never been to a middle eastern country and are basing your comments purely on stereotypes.

@Pickle85 are women allowed to be shirtless in western countries? Men can go around without a shirt but never seen a women do it in public.

@Abizzz that's a dumb comparison. Oktoberfest is about beer and German culture so ofcourse you can't have one without them. What exactly do low cut skirts have to do with football culture?
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You need to get out more mate.
 
The whole premise of the last few pages is wrong. It's not about Islam or homosexuality and it's especially not homosexuality v islam. it's about freedom off choice without persecution. I think be people should be free to make their own choices.

This is about punishing people because they are gay. Nobody is saying people should be imprisoned for being religious, so it's a false equivalency to suggest it's one v the other.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
@Abizzz that's a dumb comparison. Oktoberfest is about beer and German culture so ofcourse you can't have one without them. What exactly do low cut skirts have to do with football culture?
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If WAGS aren't a part of modern football nothing is. Especially not some oil rich country with no notable player, team, coach or anything. There's a culture that goes with football in Europe, Africa and South America and it doesn't include fanatic religiosity. They are taking other peoples culture and using it as a marketing tool. At the very least they could welcome all of it.
 
united for life said:
“backwards hell hole in some dusty arm pit of the world”, this just shows how you think. You want people to respect you buy you have no respect for anyone.

you opened so many topics here that I really do not want to get into. Some are wrong and some are right, but I do not want to get into this discussion about how to make the world a better place.
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So everything else I said was just vague to you? feck that country. I don't really know how to make it any clearer? feck any nation state that uses religion, or any thing else, as an excuse to abuse and victimise its people. You wanna make the world a better place? You expel countries like Qatar from the international community until they stop being cnuts. They dont have to be perfect, no one else is, but they need to be at least fecking pretending not to be massive bigoted thunder cnuts.
 
Roane said:
Call it what you like. What gives you a right to call all religion a fairy tale whilst advocating the rights of someone else?

To me that's as bad as the Qatari guy
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There’s false equivalence, then there’s this.

The sanctimoniousness you thumpers exhibit on the daily is truly something else.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Extremely ignorant comments that highlight the Islamophobia that I was talking about before.

@duffer what do you mean by 'cover up'? What perception of womens clothing do you have in the middle east, especially expats?

Here's an excerpt explaining quite simply what I mean by dress culture from the British Embassy:

The British Embassy in Qatar advises: “Women in Qatar are not required to wear the hijab nor are they expected to wear an abaya. However, note should be taken of the local dress code. Men and women should cover the shoulders and upper arms, and shorts or skirts/dresses should fall to or below the knee.”

Even the rules about arms and shoulders is loosely applied, how exactly is any of that unacceptable? This clearly shows you have no clue and have never been to a middle eastern country and are basing your comments purely on stereotypes.

@Pickle85 are women allowed to be shirtless in western countries? Men can go around without a shirt but never seen a women do it in public.

@Abizzz that's a dumb comparison. Oktoberfest is about beer and German culture so ofcourse you can't have one without them. What exactly do low cut skirts have to do with football culture?
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Conform to my culture! Which I'll carry with me everywhere! But don't bring your culture onto our shores!
 
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