Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

moses said:
For anyone with a life who can't read the whole thread, here is a recap.


Redcafe's 21 Reasons not to have solidarity with the LGBT community in Qatar.

1. The Tory may have misspoken and insulted the LGBT fans but they are a pretty genuine caring trustworthy bunch who put their citizens first always, so it was almost definitely an honest mistake.

2. The Gulf War happened.

3. It's Racist to stand with them.

4. The British Empire was a thing.

5. Wanting equality for women and LGBT people is culturally disrespectful.

6. George W Bush existed.

7. Wanting better lives for people not in your administrative area is imperialism.

8. People actually don't care about others, they just love being offended.

9. Do gay people actually like football, can they not just stay at home?

10. If you live a lie and deny who you are you wont be executed.

11. It's not actually that bad for the gays in Qatar. It was probably made up by the Guardian.

12. It's hypocrisy.

13. There aren't weekly executions.

14. Discrimination along lines of sexuality is not the same as other, bad kinds of discrimination.

15. We don't all think the same in the world.

16. Straight people are not allowed PDAs

17. If you like LGBT people's rights you also love wars for oil and profit.

18. Muslim people have to see pubs when they travel.

19. Qataris treat workers poorly.

20. Laws are not tools of oppression and should not be opposed, but instead respected.

21. Islamophobia
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22 . Eboue
 
redcucumber said:
Qatar 2022 World Cup: Dr Nas Mohamed urges football community to support campaign highlighting ‘persecution’ of LGBTQ+ people
https://www.skysports.com/football/...aign-highlighting-persecution-of-lgbtq-people
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To me this is actually an example that shows having the World Cup in Qatar does push the country to liberalise whether they want to or not

Dr Mohamed became the first publicly gay Qatari after he came out 6 months ago - that's obviously a huge milestone in a Gulf country and the timing of being in a WC year is not a coincidence
 
Rood said:
To me this is actually an example that shows having the World Cup in Qatar does push the country to liberalise whether they want to or not

Dr Mohamed became the first publicly gay Qatari after he came out 6 months ago - that's obviously a huge milestone in a Gulf country and the timing of being in a WC year is not a coincidence
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It's a really bad example. He claimed asylum in the US and had to come out there at 35 years old. He had to hide who he was in Qatar until he was granted asylum in San Francisco.
 
redcucumber said:
It's a really bad example. He claimed asylum in the US and had to come out there at 35 years old. He had to hide who he was in Qatar until he was granted asylum in San Francisco.
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Regardless it is still big news and a massive step for Qatar and Qataris - thats how things start everywhere
 
NotThatSoph said:
I've read from several people in this thread that as long as you keep your business private then the cops and government don't care.
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Well that's for World Cup visitors

He was a resident and a prostitute and it's 4 years ago - sad story of course but details are important
 
moses said:
There is no reference to Homosexuality in the Quran, this is a social policy enforced by a religious dictatorship. Not the same.
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There's no religious dictatorship in the UK and the vast majority of UK muslims view homosexuals as immoral. Almost 100% isn't it according to extensive polling?

I'd love to believe a football tournament could change this sort of thing but if UK muslims still hold this stance, a world cup isn't going to change a middle east theocracy.
 
Marwood said:
But we're not choosing to go to Qatar for a holiday here. Your comparison doesn't work.

You have to go to Qatar if you want to watch your team in the world cup. You haven't just chosen Qatar for a jolly.

Also comparing having a drink to human rights abuses. Come on.
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Of course going to a world cup is a jolly and a holiday. Unless you're a footballer, referee, sports journalist or sponsor anyway

This doesn't detract from the point that it shouldn't be held in Qatar for multiple reasons, but let's pretend that attending is a hallowed requirement.
 
Marwood said:
There's no religious dictatorship in the UK and the vast majority of UK muslims view homosexuals as immoral. Almost 100% isn't it according to extensive polling?

I'd love to believe a football tournament could change this sort of thing but if UK muslims still hold this stance, a world cup isn't going to change a middle east theocracy.
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100%? Seeing as there are Muslim homosexuals in the UK that's a pretty stupid claim

Do some proper research before posting stuff like that please

This is 6yrs old, I'd expect it's less today:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
 
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Jippy said:
Of course going to a world cup is a jolly and a holiday. Unless you're a footballer, referee, sports journalist or sponsor anyway

This doesn't detract from the point that it shouldn't be held in Qatar for multiple reasons, but let's pretend that attending is a hallowed requirement.
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Think you're being unfair.

Englands(or any countries) away fans follow the team around the world throughout the qualifying process. Often to the arse end of nowhere, midweek, at great cost.

But then its comes to the actual tournament they're being told nobody is forcing you to go, so just deal with it?

You think any of these fans would be choosing to go Qatar for their annual holiday?

No its not a requirement to travel to Qatar but equally its not the same as voluntarily choosing to go somewhere on holiday and then complaining.

Its a rubbish comparison.
 
Rood said:
100%? Seeing as there are Muslim homosexuals in the UK that's a pretty stupid claim

Do some proper research before posting stuff like that please
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Rood said:
100%? Seeing as there are Muslim homosexuals in the UK that's a pretty stupid claim

Do some proper research before posting stuff like that please

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
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Ok let's take a look.

I said immoral and I'm absolutely correct. I don't want to be but it is what it is. A huge majority of british muslims believe homosexuality to be immoral. Almost 100%. Extensive polling on this.

You've quoted a study from the Guardian that shows 50% of muslims thing homosexuality should be illegal. Not immoral.

Illegal and immoral are two different things with different figures.

That you think this study somehow helps your argument is astonishing.

So I'd say back to you, read properly, do proper research and then we can have a fully informed discussion.
 
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ElBarto said:
Nobody has the right to claim the moral highground. If you don't like the beliefs, values and practices of Qatari society its very simple, don't go.

If you believe that a sovereign state has the right to rule over its populous in line with Islamic law, in a country where its population wants said laws then be tolerant and accepting of a different belief system that is normal in that part of the world and many others.

Lets not use the cloak of wokeism to deflect what's really at play here which is Islamophobia.
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I see the opposite, i see people afraid to call out homophobia, cause it's a muslim country.

Somehow i suspect they would have no issue calling out a christian country for homophobia.

Just a hunch, based on my experience.
 
Rood said:
Well that's for World Cup visitors

He was a resident and a prostitute and it's 4 years ago - sad story of course but details are important
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Some people have talked about World Cup visitors, others haven't. I'm not going to re-read 21 pages to find all the examples, here's one:

FCAES_7 said:
How many people who are attacking Qatar ever been there? It's inaccurate to say they punish homosexuality by death or any other mean! They have a rule that sexual acts is not allowed in public was it homosexual or not! Is it a perfect country ofcourse not, but homosexuality is not one of the issues they have. The treatment of workers yes 100% a problem and the WC helped shed a light on it and is being tackled and improved from where it was 10 years ago. Sometimes it's hard to grasp that not everyone in the world think, or believe in the same way
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Several people have objected to the death penalty aspect, where it's true that it "only" applies to Muslims because of Sharia law and it's debateble hiw it's enforced, while for non-Muslims it's "just" punished by imprisonment. Here, however, you have someone claiming that it's not punished at all, there are laws considering sex but they don't have an issue with sexuality. This denies the very clear fact that LGBT+ people are persecuted both judicially and extrajudicially, where the above example is just one of many. It denies that LGBT+ Qataris are jailed, tortured and raped because of their sexuality. You'll find many posts like these throughout the thread.

Further, every World Cup visitor will have to download two apps. One of these, Ehteraz, is a supposed COVID tracking app. In reality it's an extensive tracking and surveillance app. It not only have access to your every movement, it has more or less complete access to everything on your phone. It can make changes to your phone, disable other apps, make phone calls, listen in, disable screen locks, and so on. An issue that has been raised by several people and organizations is a worry that the government will use this surveillance to persecute Qataris who engage with tourists; even if the tourists "respect the culture" by keeping their business private they risk getting Qataris jailed, tortured and raped. Another issue that has been raised is that the government will crack down on the local LGBT+ communities ahead of and during the World Cup, so even if you "respect the culture" the World Cup will still get LGBT+ Qataris jailed, tortured and raped. Cleverly says that the Qatari government only has people's safety in mind, though, so all good.
 
Andersonson said:
47% of muslims in the UK doesnt want a gay teacher according to studies. Thats far from 100% but still bad numbers
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I said immoral not illegal.

It is almost 100% in terms of it being immoral.

50% think it should be illegal, which is horrendous.

I'm not saying this to put the boot in.

Its just this hope that football will change things in a mid east theocracy. There's no chance when you look at the situation here in the UK.
 
sparx99 said:
The better analogy would be if a Qatari, Iranian, Saudi national visited on holiday and got offended by everyone drinking in pubs or something. Now in th scenario being told to piss off and go home maybe wouldn’t be unfair.
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What a shit analogy.
 
Marwood said:
There's no religious dictatorship in the UK and the vast majority of UK muslims view homosexuals as immoral. Almost 100% isn't it according to extensive polling?
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Churches have used many means to control people, and an angry forbodung God is one.

My point is that its often not actually theogical dogma or spirituality but just a handy admin tool. I'm Irish, I've seen oppressive religion at close hand. Our version of Catholicism was not a million miles away from Muslim countries, whereas some Catholic countries have a much more comfortable relationship with sexuality in their societies.
 
moses said:
For anyone with a life who can't read the whole thread, here is a recap.


Redcafe's 21 Reasons not to have solidarity with the LGBT community in Qatar.

1. The Tory may have misspoken and insulted the LGBT fans but they are a pretty genuine caring trustworthy bunch who put their citizens first always, so it was almost definitely an honest mistake.

2. The Gulf War happened.

3. It's Racist to stand with them.

4. The British Empire was a thing.

5. Wanting equality for women and LGBT people is culturally disrespectful.

6. George W Bush existed.

7. Wanting better lives for people not in your administrative area is imperialism.

8. People actually don't care about others, they just love being offended.

9. Do gay people actually like football, can they not just stay at home?

10. If you live a lie and deny who you are you wont be executed.

11. It's not actually that bad for the gays in Qatar. It was probably made up by the Guardian.

12. It's hypocrisy.

13. There aren't weekly executions.

14. Discrimination along lines of sexuality is not the same as other, bad kinds of discrimination.

15. We don't all think the same in the world.

16. Straight people are not allowed PDAs

17. If you like LGBT people's rights you also love wars for oil and profit.

18. Muslim people have to see pubs when they travel.

19. Qataris treat workers poorly.

20. Laws are not tools of oppression and should not be opposed, but instead respected.

21. Islamophobia
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update. It seems like I made the right call by temporarily leaving this thread many pages ago.

And I'm out again.
 
Marwood said:
Think you're being unfair.

Englands(or any countries) away fans follow the team around the world throughout the qualifying process. Often to the arse end of nowhere, midweek, at great cost.

But then its comes to the actual tournament they're being told nobody is forcing you to go, so just deal with it?

You think any of these fans would be choosing to go Qatar for their annual holiday?

No its not a requirement to travel to Qatar but equally its not the same as voluntarily choosing to go somewhere on holiday and then complaining.

Its a rubbish comparison.
Click to expand...
I do agree completely that this stupid, corrupt decision has put a lot of people in a difficult position.
The magnitude of greed and ineptitude people are capable of never ceases to amaze.
 
Marwood said:
Ok let's take a look.

I said immoral and I'm absolutely correct. I don't want to be but it is what it is. A huge majority of british muslims believe homosexuality to be immoral. Almost 100%. Extensive polling on this.

You've quoted a study from the Guardian that shows 50% of muslims thing homosexuality should be illegal. Not immoral.

Illegal and immoral are two different things with different figures.

That you think this study somehow helps your argument is astonishing.

So I'd say back to you, read properly, do proper research and then we can have a fully informed discussion.
Click to expand...

I don't have an argument, just picking you up on posting some idiotic fake news

WHere is your source ?
 
NotThatSoph said:
Some people have talked about World Cup visitors, others haven't. I'm not going to re-read 21 pages to find all the examples, here's one:
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Well it's the World Cup forum so that's mostly my area of interest here

But yes I have already said myself in this thread that Qatari enforcement of these laws is likely to be very different for visitors/expats Vs Qatari nationals/residents who will have it much worse
 
Rood said:
Regardless it is still big news and a massive step for Qatar and Qataris - thats how things start everywhere
Click to expand...
I feel like you're really stretching to turn this into a positive. To me, the fact he had to flee the country and seek asylum in the US is a damning indictment of the situation in Qatar. He's come out publicly as the first gay Qatari because he feels the need to force the issue in terms of how they treat LGBTQ+ people. If you look at what he's been saying, he's very much calling out the entire hypocrisy of the World Cup and people like Cleverly, Infantino etc for saying gay people are welcome during the World Cup, but that Qatar's actual treatment of its gay residents often involves spy tactics, imprisonment, and torture.
 
lefty_jakobz said:
If only all prejudice was the same for you to call out…
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This is a thread dedicated to the foreign secretary's comments regarding LGBTQ+ in Qatar during the World Cup. How could you possibly know how participants in this debate feel about all forms of prejudice?
 
Rood said:
I don't have an argument, just picking you up on posting some idiotic fake news

WHere is your source ?
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It's a shame.

You've misread, made a mistake, confused immoral with illegal.

Which is no problem, it happens.

But rather than say that you've gone the online debate thing of doubling down, digging in further.

In claiming my stat is fake news you're going full Donald Trump. Denying reality. Will take you 10 seconds on Google to find this out.
 
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moses said:
What is this supposed to mean?

What is the logic of criticising opposition to restrictive laws?
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Don't discuss the deaths of workers in an LGBTQ thread…where have I criticised any opposition to the backward laws of that country?
 
moses said:
I have a keen interest in people shutting down protest. Their motives are always interesting.
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You are stretching with this one tbh. Can you point to where I have suggested shutting down protests? You were the one who posted I have some form of problem with LGBTQ protests because I said the workers deaths were more of a reason to boycott the WC?
 
Marwood said:
It's a shame.

You've misread, made a mistake, confused immoral with illegal.

Which is no problem, it happens.

But rather than say that you've gone the online debate thing of doubling down, digging in further.

In claiming my stat is fake news you're going full Donald Trump. Denying reality. Will take you 10 seconds on Google to find this out.





If you can find out the stat on
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So why don't you post it then instead of being deliberately obtuse?!

I searched and found nothing relevant within the last decade so posted the recent facts on the subject which completely refute what you claimed - there is plenty of crossover between illegal and immoral
 
moses said:
I'm not sure PDAs are the issue though. Amnesty don't seem to have an issue with them. People are trying to make it about PDAs because that's just even handed control and oppression, not discrimination.
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I was replying to the poster who was specifically speaking about PDAs.
 
redcucumber said:
I feel like you're really stretching to turn this into a positive. To me, the fact he had to flee the country and seek asylum in the US is a damning indictment of the situation in Qatar. He's come out publicly as the first gay Qatari because he feels the need to force the issue in terms of how they treat LGBTQ+ people. If you look at what he's been saying, he's very much calling out the entire hypocrisy of the World Cup and people like Cleverly, Infantino etc for saying gay people are welcome during the World Cup, but that Qatar's actual treatment of its gay residents often involves spy tactics, imprisonment, and torture.
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Yes Ive read it all and I understand where you are coming from, but I still see it a major positive step that this year the first EVER Qatari has come out publicly - would this have happened without the eyes of the world on Qatar due to the World Cup? I doubt it
 
lefty_jakobz said:
You are stretching with this one tbh. Can you point to where I have suggested shutting down protests? You were the one who posted I have some form of problem with LGBTQ protests because I said the workers deaths were more of a reason to boycott the WC?
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Your whole contribution in this thread is against the thrust of it. Shutting down protest has many forms. Like pointing out 'worse' situations.

Why mention the workers here unless to obfuscate?

Why continue to bring other issues in?

Why judge people in the thread based on nothing?

Basically why the whataboutery if you have no issue?
 
redcucumber said:
This is a thread dedicated to the foreign secretary's comments regarding LGBTQ+ in Qatar during the World Cup. How could you possibly know how participants in this debate feel about all forms of prejudice?
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It's such a bizarre way to interact with the thread.
 
lefty_jakobz said:
If only all prejudice was the same for you to call out…
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You're literally the only person in the thread trying to create some sort of hierarchy of abuse. This is a, thread about one facet of the opposition. There is another thread that covers other topics.
 
moses said:
You're literally the only person in the thread trying to create some sort of hierarchy of abuse. This is a, thread about one facet of the opposition. There is another thread that covers other topics.
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And yet you were the one who said I had an issue with LGBTQ rights…only a hierarchy of abuse when one of the staff/mods deems it to be right/wrong?


moses said:
Your whole contribution in this thread is against the thrust of it. Shutting down protest has many forms. Like pointing out 'worse' situations.

Why mention the workers here unless to obfuscate?

Why continue to bring other issues in?

Why judge people in the thread based on nothing?

Basically why the whataboutery if you have no issue?
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You read far too much in that one post to then decide I must have been some anti-LGBTer.
 
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