Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

moses said:
What are you talking about? The whole conversation is actually based on that fact the word has two meanings and was chosen for that reason.

You do seem to have quite a lot of strong opinions on it for someone with no interest in political theatre.
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If you actually think the word "respect" was chosen to infer two different meaning then I have no idea what to tell you. I think it's an absurd reach, but you are entitled to your opinion.

This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with interpreting a statement made by the foreign secretary. Sure you can make it political, but that's your choice, not mine. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't see the world through the lens of liberal or conservative. It doesn't interest me in the slightest.
 
moses said:
This is tedious. Nobody said he was criticising the LGBT community.

You are missing far too many points, for whatever reason, for this exchange to be interesting.
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I think I've been pretty clear and have pretty much stuck to the topic at hand, the statement made by the foreign secretary.

I will agree that this exchange is absolutely dull and getting nowhere. Cheers.
 
MackRobinson said:
If you actually think the word "respect" was chosen to infer two different meaning then I have no idea what to tell you. I think it's an absurd reach, but you are entitled to your opinion.

This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with interpreting a statement made by the foreign secretary. Sure you can make it political, but that's your choice, not mine. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't see the world through the lens of liberal or conservative. It doesn't interest me in the slightest.
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Another strawman, now you are accusing me of partisanship in a jurisdiction in don't vote in. I only said Tory because he is a Tory.

'You are entitled to your absurd partisan opinion.' How noble of you. :lol:
 
moses said:
Another strawman, now you are accusing me of partisanship in a jurisdiction in don't vote in. I only said Tory because he is a Tory.
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I didn't accuse you of anything. Reread the posts. I expressed my disinterest in politics, simply because you brought up a political party when I did not.

moses said:
'You are entitled to your absurd partisan opinion.' How noble of you. :lol:
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How kind of you ;). I'm just an individual with no interest in topics that veer toward political discourse. Terribly sorry if you think that's an accusation, but that's out of my control.
 
MackRobinson said:
I didn't accuse you of anything. Reread the posts. I expressed my disinterest in politics, simply because you brought up a political party when I did not.


How kind of you ;). I'm just an individual with no interest in topics that veer toward political discourse. Terribly sorry if you think that's an accusation, but that's out of my control.
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The only thing out of your control judging by your post history is you ability to disagree without being condescending and insulting. I'd learn to get on top of it.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
Contridiction. The point is, don’t host a World Cup in a country that is dangerous for some. Especially at a time when players are wearing lgbt armbands. It’s double standards and shows that money rules over the points they make. The ink isn’t worth the armbands their printed on.

On the other side, nothing changes if you just shun these countries and it’s possible this is a big step in their history to host such a event.
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That's a recent occurrence.

The western world has changed quite a bit as well since this World Cup was awarded in 2010 and planning a bid in 2008/9
 
redshaw said:
That's a recent occurrence.

The western world has changed quite a bit as well since this World Cup was awarded in 2010 and planning a bid in 2008/9
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But in the football world there is a fundamental contradiction between allowing the WC to be hoisted by a country with the stance on LGBTQ that Qatar holds and promoting tolerance, equality or whatever they are promoting with armbands and laces. Football is absolutely dreadful when it comes to this stuff and we see it all the time. Wear a "Kick it out" T-Shirt or promote taking the knee but when it comes to handing out any actual punishments for racism the game is found wanting.

What bothers me most if the faux high ground that can be taken by t-shirt, armband and laces wearing that isnt actually matched by real action when the chips are down.
 
9 Stone Elvis said:
But in the football world there is a fundamental contradiction between allowing the WC to be hoisted by a country with the stance on LGBTQ that Qatar holds and promoting tolerance, equality or whatever they are promoting with armbands and laces. Football is absolutely dreadful when it comes to this stuff and we see it all the time. Wear a "Kick it out" T-Shirt or promote taking the knee but when it comes to handing out any actual punishments for racism the game is found wanting.

What bothers me most if the faux high ground that can be taken by t-shirt, armband and laces wearing that isnt actually matched by real action when the chips are down.
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That's absolutely true, Fifa are an open disgrace. I doubt anyone will argue with you there.

The problem with human rights in Qatar still exists though. It's a separate issue.
 
9 Stone Elvis said:
But in the football world there is a fundamental contradiction between allowing the WC to be hoisted by a country with the stance on LGBTQ that Qatar holds and promoting tolerance, equality or whatever they are promoting with armbands and laces. Football is absolutely dreadful when it comes to this stuff and we see it all the time. Wear a "Kick it out" T-Shirt or promote taking the knee but when it comes to handing out any actual punishments for racism the game is found wanting.

What bothers me most if the faux high ground that can be taken by t-shirt, armband and laces wearing that isnt actually matched by real action when the chips are down.
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Well the alternate argument is that putting the World Cup in Qatar forces them to liberalise much faster than they would under normal circumstances

There are signs that this is happening - for example, the Emir of Qatar publicly saying that homosexuals are welcome to come for the World Cup is actually a major development for the ruler of a Muslim country

Whether it's just a short term compromise or actually ends up with long term change remains to be seen
 
Rood said:
Well the alternate argument is that putting the World Cup in Qatar forces them to liberalise much faster than they would under normal circumstances

There are signs that this is happening - for example, the Emir of Qatar publicly saying that homosexuals are welcome to come for the World Cup is actually a major development for the ruler of a Muslim country

Whether it's just a short term compromise or actually ends up with long term change remains to be seen
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Absolutely, after the point it was awarded that is the way to view it, and the dissent is the grease for those wheels. The long term effect will be very interesting.
 
therealtboy said:
Easier to just be respectful than to be offended. What’s so crazy about being respectful of the host nations culture? You want them to change 100s of years of cultural history in the region to accommodate a select few? Just be respectful for a month and so and go back home and continue. It’s that simple.
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So I can use this in reference to Muslim people in the west not liking images of the prophet?

Just be respectful and go home?
 
Rood said:
Well the alternate argument is that putting the World Cup in Qatar forces them to liberalise much faster than they would under normal circumstances

There are signs that this is happening - for example, the Emir of Qatar publicly saying that homosexuals are welcome to come for the World Cup is actually a major development for the ruler of a Muslim country

Whether it's just a short term compromise or actually ends up with long term change remains to be seen
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Turns out money and prestige is more important than religion......who would of known.
 
Giggsyking said:
Regressive countries like Qatar with backward descriminating laws should not host a worldcup becuase they are causing people suffering, just like war raging countries like Russia and the UK that cause suffering for millions of people around the world.

If people have a problem with this concept, it has only one explanation, selectivity and hypocrisy.

My last postvin this thread.
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The World Cup being awarded to rogue regimes has a long tradition. Also I would bet that every World cup nation for the last 60 years had to bribe FIFA people. Corruption and fraud are at the very core of the FIFA DNA.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
So I can use this in reference to Muslim people in the west not liking images of the prophet?

Just be respectful and go home?
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That’s not quite the right comparison is it? ‘Go home’ is more commonly used by racists to Muslims etc who are born in the Uk or US or wherever.

The better analogy would be if a Qatari, Iranian, Saudi national visited on holiday and got offended by everyone drinking in pubs or something. Now in th scenario being told to piss off and go home maybe wouldn’t be unfair.

I’m not saying you have to like it but as a tourist you visit a country willingly. I know not to drink on the streets of Dubai. I respect the local laws while not agreeing with them.

Considering the majority of LGBT rights have come in the last 30-40 years in the West I don’t think we get to take the moral high ground as if our culture doesn’t still have major issues. Just look at the reports on UK police today.
 
sparx99 said:
The better analogy would be if a Qatari, Iranian, Saudi national visited on holiday and got offended by everyone drinking in pubs or something. Now in th scenario being told to piss off and go home maybe wouldn’t be unfair.
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Having a drink compared to human rights abuses. Sums up this thread.
 
sparx99 said:
That’s not quite the right comparison is it? ‘Go home’ is more commonly used by racists to Muslims etc who are born in the Uk or US or wherever.

The better analogy would be if a Qatari, Iranian, Saudi national visited on holiday and got offended by everyone drinking in pubs or something. Now in th scenario being told to piss off and go home maybe wouldn’t be unfair.

I’m not saying you have to like it but as a tourist you visit a country willingly. I know not to drink on the streets of Dubai. I respect the local laws while not agreeing with them.

Considering the majority of LGBT rights have come in the last 30-40 years in the West I don’t think we get to take the moral high ground as if our culture doesn’t still have major issues. Just look at the reports on UK police today.
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But we're not choosing to go to Qatar for a holiday here. Your comparison doesn't work.

You have to go to Qatar if you want to watch your team in the world cup. You haven't just chosen Qatar for a jolly.

Also comparing having a drink to human rights abuses. Come on.
 
I find the argument that this World Cup will force Qatar to liberalise incredibly hollow. It's literally the same PR pish drive that Infantino and other FIFA suits are pedaling out to try and shape the narrative. It should be taken with a massive pinch of salt.
 
redcucumber said:
I find the argument that this World Cup will force Qatar to liberalise incredibly hollow. It's literally the same PR pish drive that Infantino and other FIFA suits are pedaling out to try and shape the narrative. It should be taken with a massive pinch of salt.
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The human rights issues have been an issue for decades but the world cup has definitely widened the debate. Which despite the many objections and shoulders being shrugged, can only help in the long term. Which is why there is such a pushback on protest. There is a massive PR pushback.

Even the accusations of racism and islamophobia are part of the pushback on criticism.

So, yeah I can't see blanket change anytime soon but vocal and continued protest is the only way to negate the rampant sportswashing.
 
moses said:
The human rights issues have been an issue for decades but the world cup has definitely widened the debate. Which despite the many objections and shoulders being shrugged, can only help in the long term. Which is why there is such a pushback on protest. There is a massive PR pushback.

Even the accusations of racism and islamophobia are part of the pushback on criticism.

So, yeah I can't see blanket change anytime soon but vocal and continued protest is the only way to negate the rampant sportswashing.
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The same argument could have been made for the world cups in Russia or Brazil. All highlighted a variety of issues in these countries. Yet both countries took a turn for the worse. So I doubt that it can help in the long term.
 
HTG said:
The same argument could have been made for the world cups in Russia or Brazil. All highlighted a variety of issues in these countries. Yet both countries took a turn for the worse. So I doubt that it can help in the long term.
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I'm just desperately looking for a positive. I'm not saying the World Cup is or can be a vehicle for change. It could be but is really isn't.
 
calodo2003 said:
Like where your head’s at here.
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The idea that people who visit another culture should just accept that culture regardless of any issues or context.

Could be used the same way when people are say, offended by images of the prophet in Muslim countries, whereas in the west we don't have that cultural sensitivity, we satirise things etc. So using that logic, don't be angry about something that offends your religion if you're in the west, because it's just "the culture..."

Alas, that line wouldn't be fair so it shouldn't be fair on the reverse about "just accept Qatari culture"
 
lefty_jakobz said:
Bluster? No.

That you are using the law they have in which you cant show public signs of affection to call for a boycott rather than the deaths of workers used to build the stadia and infrastructure is what annoys me. Is it worse to be offended because some one cant openly kiss someone in public or that those streets those people are able to walk about on are built on the bodies of those workers who've perished?

Like posters who actually live in the region have stated, public sogns of affection are illegal irrespective if youre gay straight or what ever.

Edit dont know why I quoted the first poster…this reply was in response to @moses
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Been a while. But the reason I referred to PDA rather than deaths of workers (which I have in other threads) is because this thread is about the advice from the foreign sec.
 
moses said:
I'm just desperately looking for a positive. I'm not saying the World Cup is or can be a vehicle for change. It could be but is really isn't.
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That’s fair. And I get the general idea behind the thought. But if we’re being honest, they bought this World Cup in order to maintain their status quo. Not to have it changed. That’s the whole point of sportswashing. Not having to change stuff.
 
sparx99 said:
That’s not quite the right comparison is it? ‘Go home’ is more commonly used by racists to Muslims etc who are born in the Uk or US or wherever.

The better analogy would be if a Qatari, Iranian, Saudi national visited on holiday and got offended by everyone drinking in pubs or something. Now in th scenario being told to piss off and go home maybe wouldn’t be unfair.

I’m not saying you have to like it but as a tourist you visit a country willingly. I know not to drink on the streets of Dubai. I respect the local laws while not agreeing with them.

Considering the majority of LGBT rights have come in the last 30-40 years in the West I don’t think we get to take the moral high ground as if our culture doesn’t still have major issues. Just look at the reports on UK police today.
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I think we can take the moral high ground. Six decades since homosexuality was decriminalised,
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Been a while. But the reason I referred to PDA rather than deaths of workers (which I have in other threads) is because this thread is about the advice from the foreign sec.
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TBH the whole thing is a shit show. Corrupt people running the game selling the rights to host to a country with little footballing infrastructure, deplorable human right abuses and then to turn it into a winter WC when most of the leagues would normally still be playing.
I wonder how many players get injured after the WC due to body fatigue.
 
HTG said:
That’s fair. And I get the general idea behind the thought. But if we’re being honest, they bought this World Cup in order to maintain their status quo. Not to have it changed. That’s the whole point of sportswashing. Not having to change stuff.
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Again, I fully agree.
 
I read the foreign secretaries comments as a veiled warning for fan behaviour, which extends beyond homosexuals if you have any common sense. All fans should be careful if they choose to go, gay fans even more so.

How often do you hear a foreign secretary condemn an oil state? Hardly ever, despite horrendous behaviour on the international stage. Qatar shouldn't have been awarded a World Cup, but that ship has long sailed.
 
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For anyone with a life who can't read the whole thread, here is a recap.


Redcafe's 21 Reasons not to have solidarity with the LGBT community in Qatar.

1. The Tory may have misspoken and insulted the LGBT fans but they are a pretty genuine caring trustworthy bunch who put their citizens first always, so it was almost definitely an honest mistake.

2. The Gulf War happened.

3. It's Racist to stand with them.

4. The British Empire was a thing.

5. Wanting equality for women and LGBT people is culturally disrespectful.

6. George W Bush existed.

7. Wanting better lives for people not in your administrative area is imperialism.

8. People actually don't care about others, they just love being offended.

9. Do gay people actually like football, can they not just stay at home?

10. If you live a lie and deny who you are you wont be executed.

11. It's not actually that bad for the gays in Qatar. It was probably made up by the Guardian.

12. It's hypocrisy.

13. There aren't weekly executions.

14. Discrimination along lines of sexuality is not the same as other, bad kinds of discrimination.

15. We don't all think the same in the world.

16. Straight people are not allowed PDAs

17. If you like LGBT people's rights you also love wars for oil and profit.

18. Muslim people have to see pubs when they travel.

19. Qataris treat workers poorly.

20. Laws are not tools of oppression and should not be opposed, but instead respected.

21. Islamophobia
 
redcucumber said:
I find the argument that this World Cup will force Qatar to liberalise incredibly hollow. It's literally the same PR pish drive that Infantino and other FIFA suits are pedaling out to try and shape the narrative. It should be taken with a massive pinch of salt.
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I think it’s a hollow excuse because it obviously has feckall to do with why they were awarded the world cup

but put it this way, do you think them having the world cup will set back LGBT rights there? Almost certainly not

if it’s going to move the needle at all it’s likely going to be in the right direction because of the massive spotlight being shone on the country, so that’s a good thing at least
 
moses said:
For anyone with a life who can't read the whole thread, here is a recap.


Redcafe's 21 Reasons not to have solidarity with the LGBT community in Qatar.

1. The Tory may have misspoken and insulted the LGBT fans but they are a pretty genuine caring trustworthy bunch who put their citizens first always, so it was almost definitely an honest mistake.

2. The Gulf War happened.

3. It's Racist to stand with them.

4. The British Empire was a thing.

5. Wanting equality for women and LGBT people is culturally disrespectful.

6. George W Bush existed.

7. Wanting better lives for people not in your administrative area is imperialism.

8. People actually don't care about others, they just love being offended.

9. Do gay people actually like football, can they not just stay at home?

10. If you live a lie and deny who you are you wont be executed.

11. It's not actually that bad for the gays in Qatar. It was probably made up by the Guardian.

12. It's hypocrisy.

13. There aren't weekly executions.

14. Discrimination along lines of sexuality is not the same as other, bad kinds of discrimination.

15. We don't all think the same in the world.

16. Straight people are not allowed PDAs

17. If you like LGBT people's rights you also love wars for oil and profit.

18. Muslim people have to see pubs when they travel.

19. Qataris treat workers poorly.

20. Laws are not tools of oppression and should not be opposed, but instead respected.

21. Islamophobia
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Great post.
 
adexkola said:
Oh come on man... Is PDA an essential part of a relationship? That hardly warranted that response :lol:
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I'm not sure PDAs are the issue though. Amnesty don't seem to have an issue with them. People are trying to make it about PDAs because that's just even handed control and oppression, not discrimination.
 
Tarrou said:
I think it’s a hollow excuse because it obviously has feckall to do with why they were awarded the world cup

but put it this way, do you think them having the world cup will set back LGBT rights there? Almost certainly not

if it’s going to move the needle at all it’s likely going to be in the right direction because of the massive spotlight being shone on the country, so that’s a good thing at least
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HTG said:
That’s fair. And I get the general idea behind the thought. But if we’re being honest, they bought this World Cup in order to maintain their status quo. Not to have it changed. That’s the whole point of sportswashing. Not having to change stuff.
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moses said:
Again, I fully agree.
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@HTG summed it up really well. There hasn't been nearly enough of a conversation surrounding the ethical implications of awarding Qatar the World Cup for it to have any substantial impact. It's all lip service at this point as far as I'm concerned, until the people's opinions we should be listening to say otherwise.

Qatar 2022 World Cup: Dr Nas Mohamed urges football community to support campaign highlighting ‘persecution’ of LGBTQ+ people
https://www.skysports.com/football/...aign-highlighting-persecution-of-lgbtq-people

'Some of the fellow Qataris he is in touch with claim they have been kept in solitary confinement for extended periods of time, and that upon release, they were mandated to undergo so-called 'conversion therapy' treatment.

This was documented in the Human Rights Watch report which also noted: "In all cases, LGBT detainees said, Preventive Security forces forced them to unlock their phones and took screenshots of private pictures and chats from their devices, as well as contact information of other LGBT people."

Dr Mohamed adds: "All of the victims that I've interviewed myself suffer from PTSD. A lot of them hear sounds and have images that pop in their head from the time they were tortured and that is very dark.

"To have that reality exist and at the same time, to go in and have an event like the FIFA World Cup, say publicly that gay fans are welcome and have that be the only narrative for LGBT+ rights in Qatar is wrong. It's just straight up wrong."'
 
moses said:
For anyone with a life who can't read the whole thread, here is a recap.


Redcafe's 21 Reasons not to have solidarity with the LGBT community in Qatar.

1. The Tory may have misspoken and insulted the LGBT fans but they are a pretty genuine caring trustworthy bunch who put their citizens first always, so it was almost definitely an honest mistake.

2. The Gulf War happened.

3. It's Racist to stand with them.

4. The British Empire was a thing.

5. Wanting equality for women and LGBT people is culturally disrespectful.

6. George W Bush existed.

7. Wanting better lives for people not in your administrative area is imperialism.

8. People actually don't care about others, they just love being offended.

9. Do gay people actually like football, can they not just stay at home?

10. If you live a lie and deny who you are you wont be executed.

11. It's not actually that bad for the gays in Qatar. It was probably made up by the Guardian.

12. It's hypocrisy.

13. There aren't weekly executions.

14. Discrimination along lines of sexuality is not the same as other, bad kinds of discrimination.

15. We don't all think the same in the world.

16. Straight people are not allowed PDAs

17. If you like LGBT people's rights you also love wars for oil and profit.

18. Muslim people have to see pubs when they travel.

19. Qataris treat workers poorly.

20. Laws are not tools of oppression and should not be opposed, but instead respected.

21. Islamophobia
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Great way to start the morning, reading a great post.
 
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