Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

I'm still not sure what LGBT fans need to be "respectful" of, it needs clarifying. Someone pointed out that gay or straight, you're not allowed any form of PDA in Qatar, right? Okay, so that applies to everyone, not just gay people.

So, what is this extra "respect" that LGBT people need to have that isn't already applicable to straight people under Qatar's regressive laws? And if there isn't any, why are LGBT people being spotlighted then? I mean it's just about respecting the laws of Qatar that applies to everyone, right?
 
Slevs said:
This. I don't see why this uproar has occurred in this thread.

You're going to an entirely different country and accordingly have to obey their laws. If their laws seem non-sense or make you feel like your rights are being taken away from you, just don't go.
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Couldn't have said it better
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
It was a terrible analogy. Drugs can ruin lives and destroy communities. Taking drugs is also a choice, being gay isn't.
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Sweet baby Jesus. I am not making any sort of moral judgement or equivalence between being gay and taking drugs. I am saying that if a country says that taking drugs might get you the death penalty you had damn well better pay attention to that if you like taking drugs. In very much the same way you need to be very aware of certain countries views on being gay.

If a country says that wearing a fedora will get you locked up for 6 months then all the fedora wearers out there should be aware of this. Whether you think their rule is the height of bigotry, ridiculousness or whatever else, it is what it is. That is the reality. You have to play by their rules in their country. Just in case you decide to misinterpret this. I am not comparing people who like wearing fedoras to people who are LGBT...
 
Seveneric said:
I'm still not sure what LGBT fans need to be "respectful" of, it needs clarifying. Someone pointed out that gay or straight, you're not allowed any form of PDA in Qatar, right? Okay, so that applies to everyone, not just gay people.

So, what is this extra "respect" that LGBT people need to have that isn't already applicable to straight people under Qatar's regressive laws? And if there isn't any, why are LGBT people being spotlighted then? I mean it's just about respecting the laws of Qatar that applies to everyone, right?
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Because gay people are treated extra poorly over there. You are likely to be treated more harshly if you are LGBT and are more at risk in general. People are making out like the Qatar government are the only danger here when the whole culture and religion is against LGBT people.
 
Slevs said:
This. I don't see why this uproar has occurred in this thread.

You're going to an entirely different country and accordingly have to obey their laws. If their laws seem non-sense or make you feel like your rights are being taken away from you, just don't go.
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Yep. Say what you want about the Qatari government, what's not in doubt is that they just want to keep people safe. That's why they do all the torturing, beatings etc.
 
Why is it so hard to simply state that a country that penalizes homosexuality is wrong in that respect. That part of their culture is objectively shit. Doesnt mean we should all go there and make out in public, but some cultures get some things wrong. Their treatment and opinion of gay people is such a thing.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Yep. Say what you want about the Qatari government, what's not in doubt is that they just want to keep people safe. That's why they do all the torturing, beatings etc.
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I genuinely didn't connect your reply to my post.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Why is it so hard to simply state that a country that penalizes homosexuality is wrong in that respect. That part of their culture is objectively shit. Doesnt mean we should all go there and make out in public, but some cultures get some things wrong. Their treatment and opinion of gay people is such a thing.
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Is anyone arguing that its not wrong?
 
Slevs said:
Is anyone arguing that its not wrong?
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Yes, many people argue this citing culture and religion as valid arguements for not accepting homosexuality.

You don't understand the uproar, which, while not as bad is also perplexing to me. We should never not be in uproar about these ridiculous views and endeavor to chanhe them within our (peaceful) means.
 
NotThatSoph said:
That's what Cleverly said in his supposedly uncontroversial that you don't see any reason to have caused any uproar.
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I didn't even see the foreign secretary's full advice/tweet or whatever it was. I replied to a post that I thought made sense, in a discussion going back and forth with both sides presenting valid points.
Don't create a reason to get angry at a poster/post.
 
Seveneric said:
I'm still not sure what LGBT fans need to be "respectful" of, it needs clarifying. Someone pointed out that gay or straight, you're not allowed any form of PDA in Qatar, right? Okay, so that applies to everyone, not just gay people.

So, what is this extra "respect" that LGBT people need to have that isn't already applicable to straight people under Qatar's regressive laws? And if there isn't any, why are LGBT people being spotlighted then? I mean it's just about respecting the laws of Qatar that applies to everyone, right?
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LGBT people are being spotlighted, because despite PDA being illegal for everyone, homosexual acts are also illegal in private.

Qatar has sort of promised they won't cause problems for gay people being gay in private, which I think is how they tend to treat foreigners despite their laws, but PDA would obviously draw attention and who knows if they would then investigate that couple's private life to prosecute them not just for PDA but for being gay which carries much harsher penalties.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Yes, many people argue this citing culture and religion as valid arguements for not accepting homosexuality.
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That's not a reflection of the majority though, at least in my opinion.

Don't know about others but being a Middle Eastern (definitely not from Qatar, not even close), I can honestly tell you that where I am at least, there are many gay christian, muslim (and whatever else religion there is in the world) people living, even though "the law" forbids it.
Yes, they might not have the same level of rights as LGBT communities have in the more civilized/advanced (whatever you want to call this) parts of the world, but they do exist and live in their home country.
 
Seveneric said:
I'm still not sure what LGBT fans need to be "respectful" of, it needs clarifying. Someone pointed out that gay or straight, you're not allowed any form of PDA in Qatar, right? Okay, so that applies to everyone, not just gay people.

So, what is this extra "respect" that LGBT people need to have that isn't already applicable to straight people under Qatar's regressive laws? And if there isn't any, why are LGBT people being spotlighted then? I mean it's just about respecting the laws of Qatar that applies to everyone, right?
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LGBT community are being spotlighted as the likes of our Foreign Secretary and the Emir of Qatar are being asked questions about it in public due to the outdated laws of Qatar (and most Gulf countries in fact) which officially say homosexuality is illegal

But it's a valid point that in practice the laws that need to be respected in regards to PDA etc are the same for gay or straight
 
Slevs said:
I didn't even see the foreign secretary's full advice/tweet or whatever it was. I replied to a post that I thought made sense, in a discussion going back and forth with both sides presenting valid points.
Don't create a reason to get angry at a poster/post.
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I'm not angry, don't worry.

But this is kind of the point. The foreign secretary makes a statement. He is widely criticised, and a thread is started on Redcafe about that specific statement. Then a bunch of people start talking about how people are simply offended about a standard warning, which is either a misunderstanding or an outright lie. What people are reaction to is Cleverly's statement, which includes both running defense for the Qatari government and calling for people to respect Qatari culture on the topic of (the lack of) LGBT+ rights. You then read one of the comments that is completely mischaracterising the situation and conclude based on this that the uproar is unfounded.

I'm not blaming you, if you're not familiar with what this is about it makes perfect sense for you to be mislead, but at the same time it's quite frustrating how easily misinformation is spread.
 
Slevs said:
That's not a reflection of the majority though, at least in my opinion.

Don't know about others but being a Middle Eastern (definitely not from Qatar, not even close), I can honestly tell you that where I am at least, there are many gay christian, muslim (and whatever else religion there is in the world) people living, even though "the law" forbids it.
Yes, they might not have the same level of rights as LGBT communities have in the more civilized/advanced (whatever you want to call this) parts of the world, but they do exist and live in their home country.
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That's good, either way most of my frustration is from the online discours about this outside the caf. So wasnt aimed at you or any post here in particular.
 
KirkDuyt said:
We should never not be in uproar about these ridiculous views and endeavor to chanhe them within our (peaceful) means.
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According to some people we aren't allowed to be in an uproar about it because we didn't burn down the White House back in '94. Or because we use electricity. I forget which.
 
draw a dotted line of where you think it’s acceptable to be in qatar. i reckon you’ll be ok if you’re no gayer than elton john:

gareth thomas
tom daley
elton john
—————————
dale winton
alan carr
rylan
 
Rood said:
LGBT community are being spotlighted as the likes of our Foreign Secretary and the Emir of Qatar are being asked questions about it in public due to the outdated laws of Qatar (and most Gulf countries in fact) which officially say homosexuality is illegal

But it's a valid point that in practice the laws that need to be respected in regards to PDA etc are the same for gay or straight
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Does this mean there won't be a "Women of the World Cup" thread this year?
 
Posh Red said:
Isn’t it more about judging the feasibility of holding an international tournament? A lot of the comments in here seem to be about all of the horrible shit that a myriad of countries have been involved in. I don’t think they’re relevant to the point though.

The issue here is that the countries laws and traditions make it a less than welcoming destination for a specific demographic of people, making it (in my opinion) an unsuitable destination for an international tournament, that should always welcome anyone from any background, ethnicity, orientation etc.
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That specific demographic is the West.

It's not pointing the finger at western culture to say that the West dictates the standards of these human rights across the world. Nor is defending Qatar or deflecting by saying they are in an earlier phase of development than countries like the UK.

The viability of winter WC is an entirely different issue that's frankly not that interesting to me.
 
crappycraperson said:
I am a citizen of the country that was colonised. Its false equivalency to compare action of foreign invaders at that stage of human civilisation to the current conversation. No one is even saying Qatar as a country needs to be miscommunicated or boycotted or economically isolated. Having a baseline expectation of basic rights of all humans being respected irrespective of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation for it to hold a global sporting event seems like a bare minimum requirement.
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My entire point was the comparison is difficult, so I'm not sure what you're arguing. Secondly, nobody mentioned anything about them being cut off from the rest of the world, but I do think it's funny that you draw the line at global sporting events. Lastly, the entire point of what you replied to is the West determines that baseline expectation, and due to that, it's extremely difficult for them to run afoul of it.
 
rimaldo said:
draw a dotted line of where you think it’s acceptable to be in qatar. i reckon you’ll be ok if you’re no gayer than elton john:

gareth thomas
tom daley
elton john
—————————
dale winton
alan carr
rylan
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As per their latest press release, anyone above Neil Tennant or Marc Almond are welcome.
 
Jam said:
Absolute rubbish.

Justifying fecking slavery and draconian social views because “they’re not as developed as us”.

What our own ancestors did was appalling but that doesn’t mean we should just let those views continue to thrive elsewhere. It’s our responsibility to bring forth global enlightenment and education. I mean feck me we’ve done more than enough damage to the Middle East ourselves over the last 20 years nevermind the last 200, the absolute LEAST we can do is push for equality of life as well as protections for the working classes.

Using “development timelines” is such a weird view to internalise your own prejudices. If you actually cared you wouldn’t be defending those practises under a thinly veiled justification. Countries are not a vacuum, and in some areas these countries can be seen ahead of the west. It’s downright offensive to them as well to say they’re 100 years behind us. They’re choosing to use slaves, they’re choosing to oppress women and LGBTQ minorities.

Global events like the World Cup are absolutely opportunities to shame these back-wards cultures into the modern world. They’re buying the west’s attention, and they want further links with the west. If they won’t play ball with basic human decency why should we economically or socially engage with them?

This is so far beyond the pale of “respecting a countries culture”. Anyone in this thread who has attempted to defend slavery, racism, patriarchal misogyny and homophobia should be ashamed of themselves.
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This is a car crash of a post. The bolded is a manifestation of the elitism of western culture.
 
moses said:
Culture is cuisine, language, literature and art, not homophobia, oppression of workers and discrimination.
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Correct. The latter is policy (whether secular or, in this case, theocratic), not culture.

There's a reason why the initial statement was called "tone deaf" (which has, granted, become one of those go-to terms that are fast losing all meaning, but in this case it's appropriate): he said "respect the culture of your host nation". He did not say "respect the laws of the host nation (if you, as a queer person, decide to go there - because not doing that could be dangerous" (or words to that effect).

His choice of words is indeed "tone deaf" (or whatever you want to call it). There is no reason whatsoever why anyone should respect a so-called "culture" (again - it is not cultural, using that term is inappropriate to begin with) which considers homosexuality a crime.
 
Jam said:
Absolute rubbish.

Justifying fecking slavery and draconian social views because “they’re not as developed as us”.

What our own ancestors did was appalling but that doesn’t mean we should just let those views continue to thrive elsewhere. It’s our responsibility to bring forth global enlightenment and education. I mean feck me we’ve done more than enough damage to the Middle East ourselves over the last 20 years nevermind the last 200, the absolute LEAST we can do is push for equality of life as well as protections for the working classes.

Using “development timelines” is such a weird view to internalise your own prejudices. If you actually cared you wouldn’t be defending those practises under a thinly veiled justification. Countries are not a vacuum, and in some areas these countries can be seen ahead of the west. It’s downright offensive to them as well to say they’re 100 years behind us. They’re choosing to use slaves, they’re choosing to oppress women and LGBTQ minorities.

Global events like the World Cup are absolutely opportunities to shame these back-wards cultures into the modern world. They’re buying the west’s attention, and they want further links with the west. If they won’t play ball with basic human decency why should we economically or socially engage with them?

This is so far beyond the pale of “respecting a countries culture”. Anyone in this thread who has attempted to defend slavery, racism, patriarchal misogyny and homophobia should be ashamed of themselves.
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You're post just screams of entitlement. You live in the west so you think everything else should confirm to your standards - the world doesn't work that way.

Go back a 100 years and ask about legalising LGBT rights in the west and see how that goes. A lot of these countries are 100+ years behind in terms of cultural development. Most of these places you can't even show skin as a woman for god's sake. It's what happens a new country develops based off oil wealth only 50 years ago - you don't suddenly spawn in western society that's taken 500+ years to develop. That's what I'm saying, go beyond the arrogance and understand how and why other countries are different.
 
(General point):

Dogma is never absolute and universally accepted. It is always relative. Stating that "yeah, but the Qur'an states that homosexuality is an abomination, and these people are Muslims, and we have to have respect their religion (because we have to respect all religions, right?)" is pure sophistry or troll logic or whatever you want to call it.

It ignores (willfully, I would hope, for the people using this nonsensical argument - if not, they're just plain ignorant) the fact that all religions evolve over time along with the interpretation of religious scripture. There is nothing inherently impossible about an Islamic scholar declaring a scriptural passage irrelevant or outdated. That happens (and has happened, across the centuries) all the time - for all Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions.

The idea that fundamentalism is inherent to Islam is nonsense. Being against a theocratic regime (Sharia law is fundamental to the Qatari legal system) does not imply Islamophobia.
 
They have their own rules, backward or not, thats how they roll, you respect it if you are there or dont go there. In the same time that shouldnt make them immune of calling their rules wrong backward, shameful etc. in your opinion but at the end you have to accept and respect it if you there.

So why having relations with such countries if they are not up to standards of the West, if they wanna play game on your field, its on you to let them with or without them change their ways, or you just dont let them and tell them to piss off, then again hard to do that if you are virtue signalling sellouts. Show real care for such groups and miss me with brand corporate "support" on twitter style shit.
 
rimaldo said:
draw a dotted line of where you think it’s acceptable to be in qatar. i reckon you’ll be ok if you’re no gayer than elton john:

gareth thomas
tom daley
elton john
—————————
dale winton
alan carr
rylan
Click to expand...


gareth thomas
tom daley
elton john
dale winton
alan carr
rylan
——————————
rimaldo
 
R'hllor said:
They have their own rules, backward or not, thats how they roll, you respect it if you are there or dont go there. In the same time that shouldnt make them immune of calling their rules wrong backward, shameful etc. in your opinion but at the end you have to accept and respect it if you there.

So why having relations with such countries if they are not up to standards of the West, if they wanna play game on your field, its on you to let them with or without them change their ways, or you just dont let them and tell them to piss off, then again hard to do that if you are virtue signalling sellouts. Show real care for such groups and miss me with brand corporate "support" on twitter style shit.
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Here we have an important linguistic issue. Why would you 'respect' misogyny, homophobia and abhorrent workers rights?
 
Chesterlestreet said:
(General point):

Dogma is never absolute and universally accepted. It is always relative. Stating that "yeah, but the Qur'an states that homosexuality is an abomination, and these people are Muslims, and we have to have respect their religion (because we have to respect all religions, right?)" is pure sophistry or troll logic or whatever you want to call it.

It ignores (willfully, I would hope, for the people using this nonsensical argument - if not, they're just plain ignorant) the fact that all religions evolve over time along with the interpretation of religious scripture. There is nothing inherently impossible about an Islamic scholar declaring a scriptural passage irrelevant or outdated. That happens (and has happened, across the centuries) all the time - for all Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions.

The idea that fundamentalism is inherent to Islam is nonsense. Being against a theocratic regime (Sharia law is fundamental to the Qatari legal system) does not imply Islamophobia.
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We had the same issue here with homosexuality and the church. Uproar til it was voted on, and then they decided scripture wasn't compromised and everything was fine. An attack on any church's social policy is only an attack on the church if they want to be charatcterised by what you are attacking.
 
moses said:
Here we have an important linguistic issue. Why would you 'respect' misogyny, homophobia and abhorrent workers rights?
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Ok yea, my bad, under respect i meant like i guess obey the law or whatever is proper word, like me driving in a wrong lane in England (for example) sorry English not my first lang
 
marktan said:
You're post just screams of entitlement. You live in the west so you think everything else should confirm to your standards - the world doesn't work that way.

Go back a 100 years and ask about legalising LGBT rights in the west and see how that goes. A lot of these countries are 100+ years behind in terms of cultural development. Most of these places you can't even show skin as a woman for god's sake. It's what happens a new country develops based off oil wealth only 50 years ago - you don't suddenly spawn in western society that's taken 500+ years to develop. That's what I'm saying, go beyond the arrogance and understand how and why other countries are different.
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I don't think it's entitlement to advocate and push for human rights, and criticising countries on a football forum isn't even that anyway. It's important to look at why countries and societies are the way they are, but that doesn't mean it's arrogant to criticise certain things. While it's hard to change societies' attitudes across the globe, laws can change. And sometimes foreign pressure is part of the reason things change, so I think to say the world doesn't work that way isn't always true, and could also just be described as apathy.

Many countries sanctioned South Africa over their apartheid policies for instance. You could even argue all this noise about LGBT rights during the world cup is already having an effect, no matter how small. To even have the emir of Qatar directly address the issue, saying everyone is welcome is a pretty significant step if you think about it. That may be just to appease the Western press, but it's a start. On top of that Qatar introduced some labour reforms in response to the criticism of working conditions. Again, cynically it may just be appeasement for good press but it's better than nothing.

Also, in neighbouring Bahrain homosexuality isn't illegal by the way. However:
In September 2013, it was announced that all Gulf Cooperative Countries had agreed to discuss a proposal to establish some form of, yet unknown, testing in order to ban gay foreigners from entering any of the countries.[3][4] However, it has been suggested that concern for hosting 2022 FIFA World Cup in Qatar, and fears for controversy in a case that football fans would have been screened, made officials backtrack the plans and insist that it was a mere proposal.[5]
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Small steps, but it's something isn't it?

Isn't it also kind of arrogant to argue this cultural development angle? It makes no sense to compare countries and come up with some arbitrary x years behind timeline, as these things aren't linear. For all we know some countries may never legalise homosexuality, but that doesn't mean we as individuals have to shut up about it because it's a different cultural context and history.
 
Tarrou said:
No it actually makes perfect sense. When you want to criticise something you just need to make sure you criticise everything bad that's every happened too - just to be fair.
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Yeah it’s a weird take. Can’t criticise anything without criticising everything.

Of course this isn’t going to be a topic that interesya football f
Boavista said:
I kind of hoped it was obvious enough that my post wasn't serious.
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My apologies but that’s dangerous game when you read the shit show in here.
 
moses said:
An attack on any church's social policy is only an attack on the church if they want to be charatcterised by what you are attacking.
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Indeed, yes.

And I think (no, really it's pretty damn obvious) that many of those who throw about accusations of Islamophobia from a Muslim position (i.e. they are Muslims themselves) aren't defending Islam (the religion) from attacks of supposed Islamophobes) as much as they are defending themselves as representatives of a certain form of Islam (where women remain subservient and homosexuality is an aberration at best).

It's easy to do so. Not least because genuine Islamophobia is very much a thing: idiots across the world do associate Islam mainly with all sorts of despicable practices, ranging from forced marriage to suicide bombings.

It's a convenient ad hominem to use: (perceived or declared) "Western" poster criticizing something or someone remotely "Muslim" for whatever reason = Islamophobia.
 
MackRobinson said:
My entire point was the comparison is difficult, so I'm not sure what you're arguing. Secondly, nobody mentioned anything about them being cut off from the rest of the world, but I do think it's funny that you draw the line at global sporting events. Lastly, the entire point of what you replied to is the West determines that baseline expectation, and due to that, it's extremely difficult for them to run afoul of it.
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I am only mentioning global sporting event in the context of the general principle that everyone should be able to attend the same, means available. If a host country had a law barring a specific religion or race, this would not even be a debate.
 
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