Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[Wumminator]

"to refrain from interfering with"

This is the definition of respect the foreign secretary intended. If you avoid breaking the law you respect the law, even if you disagree with the law.

Thank you for clearing up the exact meaning of words the Home Secretary meant without any proof.

What did he mean when he said “ "We do talk to them about our values and why we believe it's important that people's rights from all kinds of communities are refrained from interfering with”

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

"to refrain from interfering with"

This is the definition of respect the foreign secretary intended. If you avoid breaking the law you respect the law, even if you disagree with the law.

If you want to be pedantic, it's well known that respect generally means (using Oxford here) "a strong feeling of approval of somebody/something because of their good qualities or achievements."

As already stated by someone, if he phrased it differently like "we want to make all fans aware that Qatar can be dangerous for LGBT individuals and other behaviors, please be safe" no one would have batted an eyelid.

 

[mctrials23]

Does it offend you?

Why would it offend me? I just think its fecking stupid.

There's a difference between "don't bring drugs into this country" and "don't be gay in this country".

There is absolutely no difference if the outcome was the same. If I was gay and knew that I ran the risk of imprisonment due to my sexuality I wouldn't go to a country with those rules by choice and advertise my sexuality. Its not a hard concept. Should this be the case? No. Is it the reality? Yes.

If I was going somewhere that some characteristic of my appearance, sexuality etc was an issue, I would 100% want to know and and know explicitly. I wouldn't be offended or angry at the person telling me this.

 

[HTG]

What a shitfest this thread is. Being gay is now somehow the same as taking drugs. Jesus.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Why would it offend me? I just think its fecking stupid.

I don't know. I see a bunch of people reacting negatively to Cleverly's statement, and you calling that being up in arms and offended. I then see you reacting negatively to the reactions, so I figured maybe you were up in arms and offended as well? No, it turns out, you can react negatively without being up in arms and offended. Imagine that.

 

[MackRobinson]

If you want to be pedantic, it's well known that respect generally means (using Oxford here) "a strong feeling of approval of somebody/something because of their good qualities or achievements."

As already stated by someone, if he phrased it differently like "we want to make all fans aware that Qatar can be dangerous for LGBT individuals and other behaviors, please be safe" no one would have batted an eyelid.

I'm looking at the context of what he's discussing (visiting another country with different laws). Surely he's not silly or unaware enough to ask visitors to approve?

Rephrasing his statement is just arguing semantics. Everyone of adult age should understand what he means.

 

[MackRobinson]

Thank you for clearing up the exact meaning of words the Home Secretary meant without any proof.

What did he mean when he said “ "We do talk to them about our values and why we believe it's important that people's rights from all kinds of communities are refrained from interfering with”

Come on, do you honestly think he was asking the visitors to approve of the laws? He must hate his job.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

True colors being revealed in this thread. The most strongly opinionated being the ones that this is not affected by!

sport should be equal to all! Regardless of age sex color gender and more.

 

[2mufc0]

To be fair the foreign Secretary is just doing his job, he has to give advice for British travellers about the countries they are visiting. You can disagree with the laws of those countries but that's a different matter.

 

[Offside]

One of the most shambolic moves ever FIFA deciding to host the world cup in that backward shithole (we all know why). It's not "culture" it's just failure.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

True colors being revealed in this thread. The most strongly opinionated being the ones that this is not affected by!

sport should be equal to all! Regardless of age sex color gender and more.

All are welcome but you just gotta pretend you're someone else while you're there. You can't celebrate your choices but instead you have to feel guilty about it as if it's a dirty secret and hide in the shadows.

 

[mctrials23]

I don't know. I see a bunch of people reacting negatively to Cleverly's statement, and you calling that being up in arms and offended. I then see you reacting negatively to the reactions, so I figured maybe you were up in arms and offended as well? No, it turns out, you can react negatively without being up in arms and offended. Imagine that.

You're not being as smart as you think you are...

Plenty of people have had reasonable takes on this who are directly affected by the world cup being in Qatar and plenty have gone straight to being outraged over a few words used to warn people that Qatar isn't the UK and they need to be careful. Unsurprisingly I was referring to the latter.

Keep fighting the good fight though

 

[Velvet Revolver]

All are welcome but you just gotta pretend you're someone else while you're there. You can't celebrate your choices but instead you have to feel guilty about it as if it's a dirty secret and hide in the shadows.

Fifa is to be blamed here. Money root of all evil and all that.

 

[Raven]

What's with all the Qatar shills in here?

 

[HTG]

You're not being as smart as you think you are...

Plenty of people have had reasonable takes on this who are directly affected by the world cup being in Qatar and plenty have gone straight to being outraged over a few words used to warn people that Qatar isn't the UK and they need to be careful. Unsurprisingly I was referring to the latter.

Keep fighting the good fight though

You seem really offended. If you don’t like it, just leave the thread.

 

[NotThatSoph]

You're not being as smart as you think you are...

Plenty of people have had reasonable takes on this who are directly affected by the world cup being in Qatar and plenty have gone straight to being outraged over a few words used to warn people that Qatar isn't the UK and they need to be careful. Unsurprisingly I was referring to the latter.

Keep fighting the good fight though

What you think you're referring to and what you're actually referring to are two very different things, because you've very clearly misunderstood basically everything. Remember, you said this:

I don't know if you are part of the gay community or not but my partner works in for the NHS and we 100% target advice and resources to support the gay community where it is most needed. We don't avoid the fact that gay men indulge in certain behaviour at a much higher rate than straight men so as not to offend. We accept the reality of it and try to mitigate the risks they face in the best way possible. Its silly not to acknowledge the issues someone faces because you don't want to treat them differently even though they are different.

However, no one is outraged or offended over anyone pointing out that it's risky to be gay in Qatar. You made that whole thing up in your own head, and that fantasy made you go off.

 

[mctrials23]

You seem really offended. If you don’t like it, just leave the thread.

Nope, just finding the outrage utterly baffling. We have people claiming that there are Qatar shills in here despite no one seeming to agree with Qatars opinion on LGBT people. We have people who seem to think that I have equated being gay to being a drug user. Its pretty bizarre what people are taking from this thread and peoples views.

 

[HTG]

Nope, just finding the outrage utterly baffling. We have people claiming that there are Qatar shills in here despite no one seeming to agree with Qatars opinion on LGBT people. We have people who seem to think that I have equated being gay to being a drug user. Its pretty bizarre what people are taking from this thread and peoples views.

Maybe it’s because that’s precisely what you did.

 

[mctrials23]

However, no one is outraged or offended over anyone pointing out that it's risky to be gay in Qatar. You made that whole thing up in your own head, and that fantasy made you go off.

There have been numerous news articles about people unhappy that they have been told to respect the laws and culture of Qatar. It was a message on staying safe in Qatar. Its not been a simple discussion on the issues Qatar has with LGBT people, its been negative towards the guy delivering the message.

 

[NotThatSoph]

There have been numerous news articles about people unhappy that they have been told to respect the laws and culture of Qatar. It was a message on staying safe in Qatar. Its not been a simple discussion on the issues Qatar has with LGBT people, its been negative towards the guy delivering the message.

They're unhappy about being told to respect the culture, and being told that the Qatari government is just keen on making sure that everyone is safe. That is not the same as being informed about potential risks and you know it. You have to pretend otherwise to justify your initial outrage.

 

[mctrials23]

Maybe it’s because that’s precisely what you did.

I really didn't. It was simple analogy. Plenty of countries are very hard on things that we don't even consider crimes and certainly not serious crimes. Thailand takes drug offences very seriously. Qatar takes being gay very seriously. I didn't think it was that hard to understand and not jump to a bizarre conclusion that I was saying being gay was the same as taking drugs.

 

[Roane]

They absolutely can.

I can believe bending the knee to an arbitrary royal family is antiquated and waste of public resources, but when I'm in the UK I have to respect the traditions and culture. You can disagree with capital punishment or the mass incarceration of black people in America, but when you come here you must respect our laws. I can disagree with the treatment of women in many countries, but I still must respect their laws and culture. Immigrants and visitors to foreign countries have been doing this for thousands of years even as the world has become less conservative.

Respect and etiquette is only controversial to those who don't have any.

Think the issue seems to be with the word respect.

I agree with you by the way. Just a general comment.

 

[MackRobinson]

You can respect a culture and still not agree with certain traditions and beliefs. Again this shouldn't be controversial. Honestly seems as if many here haven't been adequately exposed to different cultures.

 

[Roane]

I really didn't. It was simple analogy. Plenty of countries are very hard on things that we don't even consider crimes and certainly not serious crimes. Thailand takes drug offences very seriously. Qatar takes being gay very seriously. I didn't think it was that hard to understand and not jump to a bizarre conclusion that I was saying being gay was the same as taking drugs.

I'm not sure Qatar did. I think they are now as it's been made into an issue.

 

[Hamnat]

To be fair the foreign Secretary is just doing his job, he has to give advice for British travellers about the countries they are visiting. You can disagree with the laws of those countries but that's a different matter.

Of course, but you can easily issue warnings to the citizens and NOT be seen as normalizing the homophobia of the host country at the same time. I am not saying he WAS normalizing it. But, the wording led to this thread and the conversation.

Governments issue travel warnings all the time to different countries for various reasons on health and safety. You can issue the very necessary and prudent warning AND not sound like it is being condoned or agreed with. That is the only critique here with the actual statement really. The perception that the statement itself is lending weight to the countries homophobic stance.

 

[mctrials23]

They're unhappy about being told to respect the culture, and being told that the Qatari government is just keen on making sure that everyone is safe. That is not the same as being informed about potential risks and you know it. You have to pretend otherwise to justify your initial outrage.

Its a muslim country where being gay isn't allowed. Its not just the government that people need to worry about. That is their culture and many of the people fully believe in it. Its being pedantic over the exact wording. I imagine that the Qatari government won't want any incidents while the world is watching so I don't think its a ridiculous statement to say that they want everyone to be safe.

 

[stepic]

In this context it’s pretty obvious ‘respecting’ the laws mean obeying the laws, whether you like them or not, not making some kind of value judgement on them.

 

[Fanta Stick]

There's a difference between "don't bring drugs into this country" and "don't be gay in this country".

Similarly, there's a massive difference between having laws against homosexuals, and having targeted health advice. I think the word 'respect' here is the big problem. Fair enough - people should know and be aware of the facts of the country they're potentially going to, but to ask people to respect those laws is too much.

Exactly.

 

[crappycraperson]

They absolutely can.

I can believe bending the knee to an arbitrary royal family is antiquated and waste of public resources, but when I'm in the UK I have to respect the traditions and culture. You can disagree with capital punishment or the mass incarceration of black people in America, but when you come here you must respect our laws. I can disagree with the treatment of women in many countries, but I still must respect their laws and culture. Immigrants and visitors to foreign countries have been doing this for thousands of years even as the world has become less conservative.

Respect and etiquette is only controversial to those who don't have any.

You are conflating different kind of issues. If US still had not undergone civil rights reform and had discriminatory policies/laws against Afro Americans then FIFA should not hold a WC there. Similarly if any countries have laws that treat women as second class citizens then FIFA should not be awarding WC to them either.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Listen, you people need to respect the artistic way Qatar executes and imprisons gay people. It’s part of a rich cultural tradition dating back decades, and their methods of imprisonment, torture, and state murder are truly breathtaking in their strict devotion to tradition. Taking away Qatar’s ability to execute people for their sexual preference would be like taking away the noble deeds of the Qatari fathers, and their fathers’ fathers, and their fathers’ fathers’ fathers.

 

[mctrials23]

In this context it’s pretty obvious ‘respecting’ the laws mean obeying the laws, whether you like them or not, not making some kind of value judgement on them.

You would think so wouldn't you. I don't think I have ever heard "respect the rules" used as anything other than "obey the rules". No one expects you to agree with the rules, just to adhere to them or face the consequences. Whether those rules should be there is a completely different discussion.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

What a shitfest this thread is. Being gay is now somehow the same as taking drugs. Jesus.

If you’re doing it right, it is.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Is anyone on here going to this World Cup?

 

[Boavista]

Listen, you people need to respect the artistic way Qatar executes and imprisons gay people. It’s part of a rich cultural tradition dating back decades, and their methods of imprisonment, torture, and state murder are truly breathtaking in their strict devotion to tradition. Taking away Qatar’s ability to execute people for their sexual preference would be like taking away the noble deeds of the Qatari fathers, and their fathers’ fathers, and their fathers’ fathers’ fathers.

And isn't this cultural diversity and differences in traditions exactly what makes the world so beautiful?

Also to all the people criticising other countries, where's your outrage over commercial fishing in Mexico and the US decimating the wild population of Vaquitas to fewer than 10 individuals? Hard to take opinions seriously when there's so much hypocrisy

 

[lefty_jakobz]

And isn't this cultural diversity and differences in traditions exactly what makes the world so beautiful?

Also to all the people criticising other countries, where's your outrage over commercial fishing in Mexico and the US decimating the wild population of Vaquitas to fewer than 10 individuals? Hard to take opinions seriously when there's so much hypocrisy

Only a matter of time before they all come and call you out for your whataboutisms…

 

[Raoul]

Only a matter of time before they all come and call you out for your whataboutisms…

There's no need to call them out when they are already so obvious.

 

[TheLord]

I can understand people boycotting Qatar 2022 because of the country's horrendously primitive approach to LGBT. That's fine. You can protest all you like sitting back home, wherever that be, and in whatever form that be - blogs, vlogs, podcasts, TV shows, newspaper articles. You can even spew a lot of vitriol because quite frankly that is deserved. You can even go one step further and use all the diplomatic channels to apply all the pressure in the world, if you can do it.

But if a LGBT couple decides to attend the WC, then it is absurd to not follow Qatar's customs and rules. As a foreigner you either follow the local rules or be thrown behind the bars - simple as that.

 

[adexkola]

Think the issue seems to be with the word respect.

I agree with you by the way. Just a general comment.

Yeah agreed. As a pedantic cnut myself, I do sense a lot of pedanticism in this thread with regards to what he meant by respect. From my perspective it is very unlikely Qatar intends/expects for others to actually hold their opinions on LGBT people in high regard. But there is no harm in many fans maintaining that they do not in fact respect Qatar's culture in this regard, even if they will respect the laws while in the country. I can agree that it needs to be shouted out loud that the current situation is not ok. Even if a lot of pedanticism is involved

 

[Raoul]

And isn't this cultural diversity and differences in traditions exactly what makes the world so beautiful?

Also to all the people criticising other countries, where's your outrage over commercial fishing in Mexico and the US decimating the wild population of Vaquitas to fewer than 10 individuals? Hard to take opinions seriously when there's so much hypocrisy

The frustration with Qatar is not about one issue. In fact this is only the latest among a mountain of other underlying annoyances related to having a WC there - not the least of which being that its an insignificant little Island petro-state with zero football prowess who bought their way into relevance through corruption, then had the audacity to interrupt club football seasons across Europe so they could circumvent the fact that they don't actually have a climate to actually host a WC after all. The LGBTQ issue is therefore not the only problem related to this; rather its but the latest compounding symptom that reinforces the absurdity of fecking Qatar hosting a WC.

 

[MackRobinson]

You are conflating different kind of issues. If US still had not undergone civil rights reform and had discriminatory policies/laws against Afro Americans then FIFA should not hold a WC there. Similarly if any countries have laws that treat women as second class citizens then FIFA should not be awarding WC to them either.

Then we are just judging a culture for going through a different stage of development (unironically, this was part of the mindset of colonizers). Since western culture sets the standard for civil rights, developed countries aren't at risk of FIFA sanctions, which makes the comparison difficult.