Not really, In the box it tight for everyone, out of the box he got the ball plenty of times and was just marked by 1. He is just not good enough wit hthe ball at his feet. He needs to be in a situation where he has space and he can just shoot, nothing else.
Football is boring and lacks real superstars
- Thread starter Scottynaldinho
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Pretty sure this is an old clip coinciding with the height of the Tiki Taka craze.
cnuts.
Why? That’s a bunch of kids working together, all showing a high individual level of skill. I just don’t see the issue at all. I think it’s extremely impressive.
I am sorry but the tenets of dribbling and the ideal of elite individualism is making “something from nothing” or very little out of nowhere with little to no dependence on what is around you.
I was just perusing a transfer thread and saw this vid of player I’ve never heard of:
Practically the whole vid, he’s doing things that turn games by himself, often from a standing start with no teammates around him. You don’t need to cite the elite as this is basic dribbling 101.
Foden not getting space is a problem for him to solve like any other supposed exceptional player is expected to. He was just completely and utterly lost in all of his actions and most collate that with a system player having all of his automatisms removed and being left to think and fend for himself, which is precisely what the system is intent on removing. Well it worked…
Estevao looks more exciting than Endrick.
When would Antony have looked an amazing talent?
Juuust after the Black Death
He plays in the french league and his stats are pretty poor. He really doesn't look very good.
Which has got nothing to do with anything?
It kinda does. Foden excels in tight spaces, City put him in them as one of their targets all the time, its just what he does with the ball is different to what zhegrova does or what England expect. Mindless dribbling is not an example of a player who is good in tight spaces, nor is it a good way to play football, even if England is set up for it.
It’s not about mindless dribbling, rather, the fact he is reliant on nothing but his ability throughout the majority of the video, which is the definition of individual brilliance. @Zehner made the point players effectively need others to start a chain reaction when dribbling 101 is your own touch/hip swivel/feint is more than enough for a talented dribbler to be on their way irrespective of what teammates are/aren’t doing.
Foden is reliant on the drills in place where everything has structure and sequence where he pretty much knows how things will fall, and definitely knows when things will go “live” in his quadrant of the pitch. The problem he had for England is there was no sequencing, no cues, no automation so he had to think and fend for himself in real time and looked absolutely lost in doing so; never in the right place, never knowing what he should be doing with himself to get involved in the play without stepping on the toes of others.
I used him because he is the epitome of a Pep product, doing really well inside of the systems Pep is pushing whilst looking like he’s got tonnes to learn in dynamic settings where individuals have to take precedence over the system, especially when managed by those who can’t hold a candle to the picture perfect optimisation that wipes their bum for them at club level.
Yes he's reliant on nothing but himself, and produces little from it, it's ineffective.
I am not sure where this idea that everything in City is prepared before the match, but that is not true. Common situations are practiced but each player needs to decide the best play from it.
The point of Foden's play is that he's an amazing link up player in tight spaces. He's the best in man City and one of the best in the world at it. His kind of play is significantly more valuable and looked for than that dribbling.
He just needs players to link with, and he had none, there were no other players for England that could play in tight spaces, and a real lack of technical ability. Because England is always about individualism, and getting the biggest name onto the team sheet.
Same reason similar players have struggled at united.
I don’t know what focus dribbling has in relation to Foden; dribbling was but a minor issue compared to looking utterly lost, roaming around trying to find any way to fit in with what was going on around him, be it passing, moving into space, moving away to make space for others. In fact, any aspect of his role. He was lost at sea. He was by far the most ineffectual sans Kane, who looked like a reanimated corpse.
Plenty of England players had their own issues to deal with, but Foden was undeserving of his continued presence in the team, he was that bad, whilst others needed to tweak aspects of their play to become passable.
Saying he is world class actually makes it even worse given the enormous drop off from club to country performance.
His passing, moving into space, making himself available and link up is what he excels at. If he has no one to play with, and hes isolated then he will struggle, but thats a problem for the rest of the team.
He was lost at sea because we didn't play any sort of modern football, and from a tactical pov we looked terrible. You cannot a player who plays modern football to do well in such an old setup.
Untrue, and you only have to look at the profile of players City have been signing to know. Dribbling is currently the single most prized skill for playmaking players, by pretty much every big club out there
Either provide another example of one such player or accept that this limit is Foden's, nothing to do with Guardiola-ball or modern football
I think you've lost sight of this discussion because you're now making the point to me, that I made to zehner when he said the same thing. Your expectation is England conforming to Foden because otherwise he's effectively useless up to this point in time.You realise why I cite Foden first and foremost, and why he's a perfect lab rat for this discussion? He is 100% pure uncut system. Raised and forged in nothing else, he, like many others coming through under Guardiola's tutelage, make for the best studies in this discussion given Guardiola is the progenitor of complete/absolute system automation where everything is set and runs like clockwork ad nauseum. Observing his pure charges when removed from the drone-like settings is the most fascinating of all.
You say provide another example when the majority of the City side looked like considerably lesser players outside the system. Walker, for example, was absolutely terrible when asked to think and move for himself. I'm obviously not going to mention defenders and those who aren't expected to take centre stage and be decisive via individuality, but someone like Foden is important in this discussion because the clamour to get him into the team and the expectation placed upon him vis-à-vis what he delivered are in stark contrast and the reasons for that should be explored in a thread like this.
How else do you think it should be perceived when a star of the PL going into the tournament looks like he should be anywhere but on the pitch? What's more, he was given countless chances to process and come back to the table next game after next, which exacerbated just how lost he was without his strings being pulled, which is everything to do with Guardiola's football.
City is going for dribblers because their wide players have been pretty meh for years.
I am saying England is useless for everything, the current way it plays football means it has no chance. Amazing individuals, out dated football that is not used anymore for a reason.
You say this and yet, outside of Spain and Germany, all the major teams played tumescent defensive football.
I am not exactly sure what tumescent defensive football means.
For some reason, redcafe autocorrect Turg1d to Tumescent.
To expand:
France, with on paper possibly the strongest team in the tournament, played with 3 DM's and scored one goal that wasn't a penalty in 600 minutes of football.
Netherlands played defensively and boring.
England played defensively and boring.
Italy played defensively, shit, and boring.
Belgium played defensively, shit and boring.
Portugal played awfully, pass pass pass hoof to Ronaldo
Well I did google Tumescent
swollen or becoming swollen, especially as a response to sexual arousal.
I was confused.
France plays 2 DM's and a b2b because the best midfielders they have are those players. Their style is not defensive. They were one of the most attacking.
Italy played possession football, they just don't have the players to do it well against top teams.
Portugal play possession football.
Netherlands have a weak squad, they played attacking when they could, but they struggled without good attacking players.
We have the best attacking players in the tournament, and we had a terrible attack.
Argentina are the World and Copa America champions
Spain are a hybrid and European champions
Real Madrid are constantly the team to beat to win the CL.
Spain are the only one from 3 that give what you're saying any credence, and even they, as I said, are a hybrid with Lamine Yamal, one of few modern players who fit the bill of "real superstars," their tormentor in chief.
If England had Lamine Yamal instead of Foden, they'd be the champions now, I would wager.
All 3 played mainly a team game, wasn't much individualism. Spain and Argentina play modern football who focus on possession, RM play very flexible organisation football. RM are very physical and difficult to break down.
Did you watch the same football matches we did?
France, attacking? Mate, they scored 1 goal in 600 minutes of football.
England also played possession football, pass pass pass pass pass get nowhere, rinse and repeat. The same shite that portugal, Italy, netherlands played.
RM mainly played a team game?
I practically watched every Madrid game last season. If you think Man Utd rely on individual brilliance, try Madrid. The amount of times the team was absolute shite, but got bailed out by some Vinicius/Bellingham magic...
They all play football that is more in keeping with the past than the present, except Spain, and even then, it's about two flying wingers getting behind teams before they know what's happening and following in behind the play, which is definitely not new.
Top level football is extremely athletic these days and the most skilled non-athletes can (only) play in the midfield to have enough time/space on the ball… I mean, the likes of De Bruyne, Modric, Kroos. Then you have a number of forwards like Dybala, supreme left/right foot under a postman body: they will never be consistent enough yet on their day they win games on their own, inventing goals from nothing with a strike, a pass, a trick.
Personally my issue is how rigid it seems to be. They're all doing the exact same thing. It's all really organised. No-one actually tries anything. They just move the ball around as they've been told to. The defenders are as bad as they're having to man mark and press like professional drones.
Ideally they should do what they want, try things out, have fun and learn that way rather than have some FM wannabe use them as drones.
Real superstars were made from the streets. Not fancy footballing schools since the age of 5. The schools helped nurtured their talent, not teaching them the talents nor what they should be good at.
I don’t think this is really helped by the fact that Messi and Ronaldo simply dominated the scene for over a decade, and subsequent superstars just have too much of a hill to climb to match that kind of talent.
And they are all so clearly skilled and motivated- would be great to see what they could do if left to it. If there’s a Messi or Scholes in that group you wouldn’t see it.
Had a quick kick around with my 8 year old nephews who are football mad, and it was all don’t be there for a kick out, don’t do this don’t do that. They’re never going to be elite players and it just seemed like another school subject rather than the fun I had playing as a kid. But they do love the game so maybe it’s a generation thing.
I do think there should be a look at some rule changes to improve the spectacle of the sport. I often feel tactical fouling in your own half is under punished and is used as a get out of jail for when high pressing goes wrong.
Neymar matched that level of talent.
None of City's players looked "lost" outside of City. They may play worse, sure, that tends to happen in summer tournaments, and having a worse team around doesn't help. But this argument you are making applies to Phil Foden specifically, not to modern football stars in general. And players being awesome for club and crap for national team aren't new. Del Piero was crap for Italy pretty much his entire career, for example
City is going for dribblers because dribbling is the most valued skill by Guardiola. Because all the intricate passing and link up play is meant to create space - something a great dribbler can do more easily and reliably. And their wide players haven't been meh, considering they won a treble just last year with those guys
It is pretty much a fact that dribbling is reliant on your team mates movement. As an extreme example, if the opponent has a player you know won't pass for a certainty under any circumstances, you can attack him with 11 players and he has absolutely no chance to keep the ball. So essentially, we are not discussing whether you are dependent on your team mates but how dependent you are and of course there are players whonare better at it and players who are worse. But I mean, trust your eyes. Foden for example is clearly an exceptional dribbler and IMO better at it than any English player in the 00s. If he doesn't dribble for England, then something with the team setup has to be wrong.
This hero ball mentality that a player has to be able to do it on his own is why English coaching sucked so much in the past, I think. It seems deeply ingrained in English football culture that people look at the individual first and not the collective. It is the reason so many players who looked great elsewhere (and especially in cohesive teams) looked like a shayow of themselves for England/United and it is the reason why England despite having amazing players has underperformed on the pitch for as long as I can remember.
I actually mean what I say here and am not being hyperbolic: Foden looked lost. No ifs or buts. He couldn’t get into the games, was constantly in the way of other players, rarely in good positions to aid or facilitate teammates and his position on the pitch was called for before the knockout stages had even begun. It’s not about playing poorly because his issues were deeper-seated than that as he simply couldn’t get into the games, and because of that, he was a player dragging the side down to playing ten men, nine if you include the striker formerly known as Kane.
By stating it as you have, it makes it sound like Foden was either off form or just not playing well when it had nothing to do with what we were seeing. He couldn’t get into the game because everything he has been raised in was absent. Order, control, structure, refined drills and automations, trigger points that have been meticulously honed by Pep… an avatar without a controller.
I led with the fix in one of my earliest posts: England have to attempt as much of the above as possible and Foden will plug into the mainframe and “suddenly” look like a different player. It looks like I’m persecuting Foden when the reality is he is a product of his environment and footballing upbringing under Pep. You keep saying it’s a Foden problem and I keep telling you that for me, he is the perfect embodiment of what happens when freedom of expression is corralled to benefit the system and only the system. They’ll have been hundreds, if not thousands of errors in what England’s blunderous football produced - so many things Pep and the City coaches have painstakingly worked on and out of their players, and suddenly Foden has to bypass years of training and thousands of hours of coaching and go it alone. Can imagine the headfeck that was to him? People encroaching on him and breaching his section of the pitch without rhyme or reason; players trying to operate on impulse at times and not necessarily for the greater good of the team at that precise moment. It was as uncomfortable for Foden as suddenly applying tedious rules and automations would be to a streetball-developed player. Taking away their instinctive actions and making them think inside the box.
To the above, Grealish looks like he’s been lobotomised at City compared to the player he was at Villa. Where you sit in regard to the pros and cons of that, the sober product Pep demands he be has little to no edge, but is a constant thorn, by consideration for the opposition doing the same few things over and over and over again.
But anyway, I’ve said my piece on Foden and how I perceive it and precisely why he, for me, is the crux of this sort of discussion. Not going to repeat on myself as I think this is going to become an agree to disagree with both just saying the same things in different ways ad infinitum otherwise.
Well your second paragraph is about striking the right balance; Southgate has been ruinous in that sense with his football that hinders his players at every turn, especially those expected to progress the ball or create/finish.
England haven’t had a football first manager in a long time; perhaps Hoddle is the last manager who set up to play good, cohesive football that was not risk averse and that is likely to play heavily in what you’ve said, which isn’t necessarily wrong.
Your dribbling point is taking things to an extreme for no reason as what we were talking about is initialisation and the ability great(er) individuals have to kick up a storm by themselves, without need for input from teammates. It wasn’t about Roy of Rovers type play after the play gets underway, but it is about forging opportunities for themselves or others “out of nowhere” because that’s often what happens with individual brilliance, and the more often it occurs, the greater the player is acknowledged to be.
Foden may look lost because he genuinely needs detailed instructions, a highly organized, structured team around him, and a clear, stream-lined decision making process. Or he might just not be able to handle the pressure. Again, there are plenty of similar cases through the last 40 years. It's not new, and it is something specific of Foden, not modern stars in general. The other high profile star who is struggling for the national team right now is Vinicius, for example
I mean not really. England don't need to do any such things and it's very much not a given that Foden would start matching his City performances if they do
And I disagree with that. I think it's far more likely that this is just who Foden is.
England were a mess throughout. Bellingham also struggled, and this is a player who has always been encouraged to find solutions on his own. And again, none of City's other players have this problem
True enough this, though he the few times I've seen him he plays more like his Villa version for England. So his is actually a case of sacrificing his natural game to help the team
I'm watching England vs Finland and thought of this thread. TV shows the team with the boring white kits vs the team with the boring blue kits. Most of game video has shown with 1/3 of the pitch in view (maybe only for half #1?, I'm watching the 2nd half now, and there may be more close-in shots going forward*)
*reminds me of half #1 US vs Uruguay this summer, where the geeky US fan were joking that the camera was filming in orbit on the Starship Enterprise.
*reminds me of half #1 US vs Uruguay this summer, where the geeky US fan were joking that the camera was filming in orbit on the Starship Enterprise.