I had the choice of watching England v Finland or any of the National league games. I ended up watching Barnet v Altrincham & thoroughly enjoyed it. Not the same quality but way more entertaining !!
Football is boring and lacks real superstars
- Thread starter Scottynaldinho
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What channel was that on?
That's like saying I had the alaskan salmon with a balsamic vinaigrette instead of duck breast with broccoli rabe.
Brazil had a hero ball mentality and are the most successful national team in the sport.
A hero ball mentality wouldn’t be bad if England could produce Ronaldinho, Neymar, Romario types.
Saying that, saying England have had a hero ball mentality is wrong, if anything English players have played within themselves, the players who could do it all themselves have generally been the best English performers, Gazza, Rooney, for example and if England had more of these type of players they would have fared better undoubtedly.
Not enough players have the confidence to develop their own style. Particularly with players you see come through who are trying to 'do' a Ronaldo by mimicking his mannerisms. The step over had gone from a means to an end, to the end. As if they think they can collect points for it.
There generally seems to be what can only be described as an endemic of fannying about with the ball on it edge of the area in football these days.
"I've fannied about with it for a bit, so I'll pass it sideways to you for a bit of a fanny, would that be alright?"
I'm not advocate everyone does a Stevie Me, but there's definitely less bravery in the final third. And I think that comes down to players being too interested in copying the mannerisms of their favourite players than actually being equipped to make the best, most effective decisions at the crucial moments
There generally seems to be what can only be described as an endemic of fannying about with the ball on it edge of the area in football these days.
"I've fannied about with it for a bit, so I'll pass it sideways to you for a bit of a fanny, would that be alright?"
I'm not advocate everyone does a Stevie Me, but there's definitely less bravery in the final third. And I think that comes down to players being too interested in copying the mannerisms of their favourite players than actually being equipped to make the best, most effective decisions at the crucial moments
it's on National League tv on my IPTV
Brazil won their last WC over 20 years ago.
OK .. Is the Salmon better than the Duck ... I'm confused !!!
And that was nothing down to embracing individualism, in fact Brazil have gone the opposite direction the more they’ve tried to adopt a conservative more European style.
Premier League's strikers in 2014 - Suarez, Alexis, Giroud, Rooney, RVP, Costa, Lukaku, Aguero, Dzeko, Negredo, Kane, Sturridge, Benteke, Ba, Bony
2024 - Haaland, Watkins, Isak, Duran, Havertz, Jesus, Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin, Zirkzee, Hoiljujnd, Jackson, Solanke, Evanilison
The quality difference is night and day. Could do same for other positions too
2024 - Haaland, Watkins, Isak, Duran, Havertz, Jesus, Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin, Zirkzee, Hoiljujnd, Jackson, Solanke, Evanilison
The quality difference is night and day. Could do same for other positions too
What you're missing is that your criticism applies to every player. Even Messi has consantly been criticized for being a shadow of himself for Argentina, for only being capable of playing at his best under Guardiola/with Iniesta and Xavi in his team, etc.
I mean, you're pretty much arguing that Foden loses fine motor skills and muscle memory if Guardiola doesn't tell him what to do.
Not really. Brazil won exactly once by embracing hero ball mentality - and it was out of necessity and they complemented it by packing the team with defensive players, so they could sneak 1-0 wins(which is what happened). In '94. The rest of the time, when they embraced hero ball they failed(see also: Russia, 2018). Their wins have always been down to great collectives, with superstars playing off each other and elevating each other. Hero ball for those teams meant things weren't working(see, Brazil vs Netherlands, '98 SF)
Ronaldo is part of the problem tbh, take aside the fandom and his adoring fans, he completely stripped down his game in his 30s to barely anything but scoring goals. He went from being one of the highest volume dribblers when he was a teenager to having the dribbling stats of a centre back at United 2.0. Obviously still one of the best players at all time, but efficient rather than exciting for the past several years. And lots of young players idolise Ronaldo so would see that as the most optimum way to go about their careers.
He had to adjust his game because of his knee tendon problem. He didn't just do it to go central and score more goals, he just wasn't capable of being a dynamic dribbler anymore.
You’re right but I interpreted hero ball mentality as playing players who had heavy amounts of individualism, because that definition didn’t apply to England either.
No it doesn’t and I’ve been extensive enough with my reasoning to both you and @giorno to not repeat myself with regard to this. Both of you keep rebutting with false equivalence. Messi has never looked lost for his NT. underperformed or looked lesser than his Barca iteration? Sure, but that, equivocally, is not the same thing.
Second paragraph. That’s one way of putting it, but it’s actually critical thinking skills outside of the system. Basically, Foden’s an acing chemistry student thrown into a physics class where all that chemistry brilliance is pretty much redundant. Or something.
No it doesn’t and I’ve been extensive enough with my reasoning to both you and @giorno to not repeat myself with regard to this. Both of you keep rebutting with false equivalence. Messi has never looked lost for his NT. underperformed or looked lesser than his Barca iteration? Sure, but that, equivocally, is not the same thing.
Second paragraph. That’s one way of putting it, but it’s actually critical thinking skills outside of the system. Basically, Foden’s an acing chemistry student thrown into a physics class where all that chemistry brilliance is pretty much redundant. Or something.
Extensive enough, for sure, just not logical enough
Foden had around 1.5 successful dribbles per 90 in the EPL and arounf 1.3 at the EC so it is not as if he dropped off a cliff. Messi is a similar case, you obviously saw the player he is for Agrentina as well and the reason he was subjectively worse was that his team didn't create as many favorable situations for him as was the case for Barca. It was always a stupid stick to beat him with and you are no using the same stick to beat Foden/the ypunger generation of players. In the end, I think your perspective, at least partly, stems from a wrong understanding of what Guardiola is about. His approach isn't to control how the ball ends up in the net from start to finish, it is rather methodologically carrying it into the attacking third and create numerical superiorities in certain areas to give his players the opportunity to improvise. Here's a quote by Henry on that:
Maybe my point comes across easier this way: chances are Foden isn't a chemistry student thrown into a physics class. He's a physics student having a final exam and forgetting everything he knows out of panicSecond paragraph. That’s one way of putting it, but it’s actually critical thinking skills outside of the system. Basically, Foden’s an acing chemistry student thrown into a physics class where all that chemistry brilliance is pretty much redundant. Or something.
I watch Pepball avidly enough to draw my own conclusions of what is happening and why, he [Pep] has also become more rigid with certain aspects over time, plus, with a lower tier of player, which Foden is in relation to ATG’s, they are more restricted within the system. It is de Bruyne alone who is allowed to do what he wants with the system backing him up for Pep’s City. The others have varying levels of freedom, but it is within the system. Foden may have the torch handed to him eventually, but that’s not where he’s at now and it shows.Extensive enough, for sure, just not logical enough
In the end, I think your perspective, at least partly, stems from a wrong understanding of what Guardiola is about. His approach isn't to control how the ball ends up in the net from start to finish, it is rather methodologically carrying it into the attacking third and create numerical superiorities in certain areas to give his players the opportunity to improvise. Here's a quote by Henry on that:
I really have no idea why you’re bringing up dribbling in isolation, but I’m going to assume it’s within this aspect you believe I’m digging out Foden because if he were dribbling like a maniac, he’d be showing individual brilliance? If so, you’re not really following what I’m saying and by how far I am stating he looked like a fish out of water or why that is the case. You’re both normalising something that isn’t normal (to me), and putting it down to form essentially. I don’t think Foden was in bad form in the slightest; the team wasn’t micromanaged to have him function, is the bare bones of it and the strictures of his coaching and programming have made it so he has little clue what to do in such a randomised, unrelenting environment. If he’s given the keys to the kingdom post de Bruyne, he’ll learn how to function outside of the matrix.
Just made a post that fits in with this. I really disagree because I don’t think it was nerves or ability that betrayed him over being in a wholly chaotic, unstructured environment he has little experience with. Foden was himself, everything around him was different and broken. There’s a reason Zehner stated “system fix” in his very first rebuttal and that’s because none of the automated functions Foden has been hand-reared with were present.
Extensive enough, for sure, just not logical enough
In the end, I think your perspective, at least partly, stems from a wrong understanding of what Guardiola is about. His approach isn't to control how the ball ends up in the net from start to finish, it is rather methodologically carrying it into the attacking third and create numerical superiorities in certain areas to give his players the opportunity to improvise. Here's a quote by Henry on that:
Messi has mostly always been good for Argentina, not at Barca level but still enough to be top 5 players in the tournament level. Fodens drop off from City performances to England is on a different level, and worst than players of the golden generation who often got criticised, for not showing their club form for their country.
No, I'm not. On one hand I'm offering an alternative read of why Foden looks so different for England other than the "doesn't know how to function outside city" bit.
And on the other hand I'm pointing out that Foden's "abnormality" is very much circumscribed to Foden himself. Meaning this is more likely to be his fault, his own failing and lack of skill, rather than a byproduct of City's environment
Only in an alternative universe, a Gakpo, let alone an Antony, would be considered as amazing talents in any era.
He's nowhere near a Figo or a Shevchenko and a completely different player than Nedved. Owen was an absolute phenomenon in his teenage years before injuries ruined him. He basically was finished at about 22-23 years of age.
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I don't care about "superstars", that seems like a shallow reason to like or dislike any form of entertainment. But I do find football boring more than I'd like, but that's due to fundamental issues such as time wasting and the constant stop-start nature, which is worse due to players falling over and conning the ref becoming so prevalent. There's also a lack of flair these days compared to decades ago. In a lot of matches, over the course of a full 90 minutes there is such a little amount of real action that I'd call genuinely entertaining.
It absolutely is. They were not.
Under Deschamps France's game has always been based first and foremost on defense, whilst relying on their exceptional attacking talent to make the difference. Right in line with their 1998 iteration under Jacquet's tenure which Deschamps, who also played the best years of his career at Juventus, was part of and obviously took a massive inspiration from. They pushed it to an absurd point in the latest Euros and it badly backfired because Mbappé had a shit tournament.
Portugal played possession football exclusively aimed at a washed out C.Ronaldo which was the reason why they performed so badly, just like in the last WC.
You didn't, Spain did. Although you can rightly consider Harry Kane as a vastly better striker than Morata. You also had a shit manager.
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See, that's what I mean when I speak of a fundamentally wrong understanding of how football coaching works. You seem to think Guardiola micromanages players by giving them super detailed instructions on how to behave in specific situations but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I mean, just think that through. Football is a high entropy sport with thousands of variables. No two situations in any given match are exactly the same. When you win the ball, the positioning of your team mates and the opponent players varies greatly. You can't pre"programme" a player for chaotic situations because by definition, programming is strict and doesn't work well with unexpected situations, so you'd need to provide them with decision trees that run millions of branches in order to account for every possible variety and players would need to process them within split seconds. But players aren't computers. It's not feasible and will never work. In football, the individual will always be in the foreground. A coach isn't a programmer, he's a conductor.
What you can do is provide a positional structure and train rough patterns of play that are applied when the match is in a controlled and standardized phase (and even then the players need to apply their knowledge autonomously because you aren't operating under laboratory conditions) but most importantly, it is about training the players' instincts for situations for which you can't plan ahead. And those instincts don't suddenly vanish because they play for a different team.
That's recency bias. Case in point, Ronaldinho 2006.
It's an exageration of course. The point is that the main reason why players like Gakpo or Antony aren't stars in the PL now is speed - pace, agility, acceleration, reactions, etc. They're too slow. But in the PL of 20 years ago they wouldn't be
As for Vini: I watched Figo pretty much every week for near a decade, and same for Sheva and Nedved. Vini is better than Nedved - easily - and no lesser a player than Figo or Sheva
But I did say to you he was one of a number of players who looked less than outside of City’s environment. I used him because he was the worst affected whilst being the prime candidate to go forth and prosper in the summer. Foden came into the tournament off arguably his best season to date and the clamour for him to start was too much for Southgate to cope with, so he was installed at the behest of a baying press pack and kept in the team because, surely he was too skilled and talented to fail!?
Doku was the same as he always is, and I’d argue that is because he has not been assimilated in such a short period of time, but Foden knows no different as a professional footballer, so to me, it makes perfect sense why he was completely discombobulated in an environment he’s not the seen the likes of as a professional.
I want to understand why you would point the finger at Foden instead of Pep and the systems that raised him when that same system makes Foden a star within its confines. As far as Pep is concerned, this is his best work yet, and I am not saying that sarcastically as Foden is the embodiment of a perfect system player, and proof of how well the system works and to its own devices, Foden is eureka player. It’s just that, to me, when you hardline it like that, there is nothing left - an inverse of the Grealish lobotomy.
The next stage of evolution is clearly cybernetics… where man and machine work as one…
I’m teasing, but I still believe that if you want true individual brilliance, you’re going to find it harder and harder to come by as more “Foden’s” come through who are not designed to function in anything but pristine systems devoid of chaos that struggle when the contingency come in thicker and faster than the system updates do… I hope you get what I’m alluding to here But I did say to you he was one of a number of players who looked less than outside of City’s environment. I used him because he was the worst affected whilst being the prime candidate to go forth and prosper in the summer. Foden came into the tournament off arguably his best season to date and the clamour for him to start was too much for Southgate to cope with, so he was installed at the behest of a baying press pack and kept in the team because, surely he was too skilled and talented to fail!?
Doku was the same as he always is, and I’d argue that is because he has not been assimilated in such a short period of time, but Foden knows no different as a professional footballer, so to me, it makes perfect sense why he was completely discombobulated in an environment he’s not the seen the likes of as a professional.
I want to understand why you would point the finger at Foden instead of Pep and the systems that raised him when that same system makes Foden a star within its confines. As far as Pep is concerned, this is his best work yet, and I am not saying that sarcastically as Foden is the embodiment of a perfect system player, and proof of how well the system works and to its own devices, Foden is eureka player. It’s just that, to me, when you hardline it like that, there is nothing left - an inverse of the Grealish lobotomy.
The next stage of evolution is clearly cybernetics… where man and machine work as one…
There is no such thing as a football system devoid of chaos. Chaos is the essence of football. You have 22 human beings on the pitch who constantly have to make decisions within fractions of a second, there is always going to be entropy. You can tell your players "A occupies these coordinates on the pitch, B occupies those coordinates and when A moves, B does XYZ" but all it takes for your instructions to become pointless without self-responsible adaptation by your players is for one team mate (or opponent) to be a little bit too late or too early while following instructions. Or forgetting what he was supposed to do (which becomes more likely the more complicated your instructions become). Or miscontroling the ball. Or ...
It's not how stuff works. Football is chaos by definition and even the biggest control freaks in the sport know this and transport their vision by enabling their players to think for themselves. Which is why coaches like Guardiola work best with very intelligent players like Messi, Lahm, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Gündogan, Rodri, etc.
But, to paraphrase you, those guys don't look utterly lost outside City's environment. Just worse. Which is "normal". And it's not even true of everyone. It isn't for Rodri. It wasn't for Sterling, back when he was a star, either
Here's the reality of Phil Foden: he's not as good as you all think. He's not as big a talent as you all think. City maximizes him.
Sure. Foden is like that because he's not talented enough to be better. Or at least, he's not talented enough to succeed at City on a different development path
Because Pep's "system" never made great individualists lesser, and in fact is meant to exalt those players. Foden never developing into such a player is more likely down to Foden lacking the talent, than City stunting his development to better for their "system".
Essentially you seem convinced that City have limited Foden, made him lesser than he could have been, whereas I believe City have maximized Foden, made him as good as he possibly could be
Again...Foden and Graelish are the only such examples you can bring up though. One is a case of a young player being closed down by better, established ones and developing across the path of least resistance in order to make the team. The other is a guy signed from outside who, not being good enough to deserve the team being tweaked around him, was then forced to adapt to the team. Neither of which is a particularly rare thing, if not common
I disagree because the current state of football and the direction it is taking is emphasizing and will continue to emphasize individual qualityThe next stage of evolution is clearly cybernetics… where man and machine work as one…
You have said this in two posts, but I realise you keep taking things to absolutes disregarding the in between, in this instance that Pep’s football is designed to keep chaos and optioning to the bare minimum and stifle and stymie the opposition for extensive periods of time. There’s nothing wrong with that and it’s the objective of the game - to strike without been struck, but there’s a reason why many see it as boring, robotic and risk averse. There’s also a reason why Pep is most overwhelmed by chaos that his contingencies can’t contain. It is the point at which his teams are likely to become unstuck.
I don’t know whether you have any knowledge of boxing, but Pep is a Mayweather of sorts, difference being the former does not have the same weakness once/if his initial calculations don’t go to plan.
I should bet you think I hate the system given I post so much against it. I admire it for what it is, however, but I am glad it has failed to assimilate everything in its path. If it ever does, I question whether we’ll ever see another Maradona, Best, Pele, Ronaldo (or even C. Ronaldo) etc. again. The greats of the future will be so much more sterilised if the old ways are eradicated.
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The academy that champions that system more than any other is the same academy that produced Messi, Iniesta and now Lamine Yamal
Pep is not the one making the matches boring. If you want to blame a coach, blame Mourinho. Possession play only looks boring if one team is overly negative. If two Pep teams have a go at each other, it is a thrilling experience.
But I don't blame Mourinho either. The problem is that football has become so monopolistic that the gaps in quality are far too big. If two small teams play each other, it is usually boring because they have generic and boring players. If a top team plays a weak team, the latter will park the bus. If two top teams play each other, it highly depends on the teams. In the last 1.5 years, Leverkusen - Stuttgart matches were incredibly entertaining despite both teams being possession oriented.
By the way, I think your prediction on there never being another Maradona/... is a bit counterintuitive when the closest we got to him was the player most associated with Pep's style. And yamal, one of the positive examples you mentioned, also stems from La Masia.
If you check my posting history you’ll see I rarely post about Foden to the positive or negative. Truth is, for me he has been one to observe and try and figure out. Some had the nerve to compare him to Gascoigne in the media and some socials when they are practically the antithesis of one another. I really have nothing against him, but observation of him is like watching a nature or nurture discussion unfold before my eyes - he, and what comes after him under Pep, are at the forefront of this discussion. I use Pep because he is unquestionably the system king of this era, so of course his charges are the most interesting to discuss.
I cite Grealish because he, more like a Gascoigne, was the antithesis of Pepball, and look what it’s done to him, for better or worse. City and Pep shouldn’t care because what he does there is effective and functional, but in terms of what he was and the way his critical thinking has been removed, yes, he looks like a lobotomised player. Again perfect for the system, but awful for anything outside of it.
Rodri’s an outlier. I don’t know where to place him so I didn’t bring him up; he looks like one of very few universally exceptional players on the planet, as in there’s not a style of football he would look less than in; I think he’d even look good in our shambles of a midfield. I don’t know whether he’s accredited to Pep nor did I follow him prior to state whether he always looked like he had latent ability just waiting to be tapped into.
Your last sentence you seem to have unironically posted given it’s your club staving off broader assimilation, not football as a whole, just a few key sides who happen to be champions.
Then I fail to understand what point you are trying to make.
Is it "system destroys individuality"? Not new, still situational, and still not true for truly exceptional players, as of yet. You are making a mountain out of a molehill
Is it "academies will start producing system players"? The academy that does so more than any other is the one responsible for Messi and now Lamine Yamal, probably the 2 greatest individual talents we've seen in the last 20 years. It certainly does *not* stymie individuality in service of the "system"
So...what is it you are trying to say?
Astute, but you did see there was no mention of Messi in my post, so by extension Yamal? These are the golden children who blend both the system and individuality seamlessly, but they are not cut from the same cloth as the players I mentioned.
I don’t think your Best’s and Maradona’s, who barely conform and played almost purely off instinct are the types you like, Zehner?
The feeling of that united vs arsenal game where things got really heated with RVN and Keown is something I've not experienced for a long time. Doesn't have to even be superstars, just has to have players who are hell bent on winning.
“Player stops dribbling because he’s not as good at it as he aged, so he’s part of the problem”
Christ
If you are raised within the rigour of a tight system, you will function brilliantly within its confines and automations, the likelihood of dependency is huge. What happens to you outside of those confines so tightly bound when left to improvise with little of what you know supporting you is a crapshoot.
Inversely, if you take a free-thinker and improviser and plonk him in an extremely strict system, he is likely to fail unless he conforms.
Expression gets neutered or corralled into a predictable set of patterns ran ceaselessly, and as effective as they may be, they can be perceived as dull because there is little to no thought going on to execute.
I think I have stated that Pep has moved away from some of his La Masia principles already - that discussion isn’t one and the same, but I realise “the system” encompasses a lot of styles and philosophies and not just Pep, but I also stated why I use Pep.
As far as the “superstars” thing, I’ve long theorized that the introduction of more data points, better metrics, and hyper concentration on efficiency and gaining small edges is largely responsible for the difference in football these days. To borrow a gaming term, it’s become extremely “meta” based not unlike many other popular sports (basketball and the rise of 3 pt shots being one example).
Because of this, the biggest difference with many players in the modern game is that attackers and midfielders have to be able to run and press ridiculous amounts and do it constantly. It’s a trait that defines many transfer strategies with clubs now. You can’t afford to have a striker that gives you very little out of possession, because most all teams have a defined pressing structure that they follow. So this emphasis on cardio/athleticism forces a lot of would be “superstars” out of clubs transfer policies even if they are absolute magic with the ball at their feet.
I mean feck, you’d probably have tacticos criticizing Ronaldinho if he played today because he didn’t do any pressing without the ball. No one gave a feck back then.
Because of this, the biggest difference with many players in the modern game is that attackers and midfielders have to be able to run and press ridiculous amounts and do it constantly. It’s a trait that defines many transfer strategies with clubs now. You can’t afford to have a striker that gives you very little out of possession, because most all teams have a defined pressing structure that they follow. So this emphasis on cardio/athleticism forces a lot of would be “superstars” out of clubs transfer policies even if they are absolute magic with the ball at their feet.
I mean feck, you’d probably have tacticos criticizing Ronaldinho if he played today because he didn’t do any pressing without the ball. No one gave a feck back then.