Thank you. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. Beautiful goal.Are people seriously moaning about that goal or is it some sort of inside joke I'm not in on? It's a fecking fantastic goal and exactly what football at that level should be about. I know passing the ball well is frowned upon in this forum, but come on, this is beyond parody now
Football is boring and lacks real superstars
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The issue with that train of thought is that it leads you to contradictory conclusions like the idea that a player like Foden who possesses superb technique, explosiveness and football IQ actually isn't brillant because he can't reproduce rhe magic he displays for City in an erratic England team that struggles to create any space for him. What you don't consider is that the supposedly brillant individuals from past eras prgoted immensely from not being up against teams that were tactically as cohesive as the modern day elite because in the end, the collective elevating individual brillance works both ways: We've witnessed countless times how undoubtedly genius level players such as Messi, Neymar, Cristiano or Hazard looked completely anonymous when their respective teams were being outplayed by a collectively superior opponent who prevented them from getting into the situations in which they excelled.
You'd still see the quality from Messi, Neymar, Cristiano, Hazard if they're not struggling with fitness. Saka and Kobbie have managed to show their quality in the same erratic England team, whereas Foden who looks brilliant in Pep's system, looks completely lost. In fact, the only one I'd agree with on the list of platitudes you gave is superb technique.
I think they have to play so many games and are so run into the ground that players at the very top try to do only what they have to.
Take Mbappe, he’s not exploring the outer limits of his ability, as he could if he played 20 fewer games a season. He’s a moments player scoring goals to win matches and then conserving energy for the next match in his gruelling schedule.
Take Mbappe, he’s not exploring the outer limits of his ability, as he could if he played 20 fewer games a season. He’s a moments player scoring goals to win matches and then conserving energy for the next match in his gruelling schedule.
We are only jealous.Are people seriously moaning about that goal or is it some sort of inside joke I'm not in on? It's a fecking fantastic goal and exactly what football at that level should be about. I know passing the ball well is frowned upon in this forum, but come on, this is beyond parody now
It's also great fun and a big source of pride for kids to be part of a team that functions really well. What's more, everyone has a role to play in this; the team isn't reliant on one brilliant kid that's 'expressing themself' by dribbling past five opponents while their teammates watch from a distance.Are people seriously moaning about that goal or is it some sort of inside joke I'm not in on? It's a fecking fantastic goal and exactly what football at that level should be about. I know passing the ball well is frowned upon in this forum, but come on, this is beyond parody now
It's very true, if you're familiar with the history of football you can see this happen many times.
Shit like this is pathetic. You don't like a style of play and you think the game is ruined. The game has evolved and it's left a lot of fans behind, it's always done that and always will. Some people live in the past and can't accept the new. They think the past is better because it's when they grew up, there is actually a term for it. As the times move forward so will the tactics in football. It's no longer a game for 22 guys with learning difficulties to run around kicking each other and using 1 trick to coast through games. People use their brains now.
"Music was better back in my day"
"Food used to taste better"
"People were nicer back in the day"
Some football fans need to accept they're just getting old and they're turning into Graham Souness.
That football moves on? 100%, but it doesn't return to previous football.
You’ve caught yourself in a catch 22 here. We’ve seen true individual brilliance shattering the system, overloading it and providing contingencies before the system can recover. We call such players game breakers, as does Pep. They are becoming fewer and farther between and it's not because football or its current systems are amazing, all-conquering entities, as we see routinely with Real Madrid, the last of the dying breed, routinely being kings of Europe.
Your bolded is a strawman you've just argued against with little input from me as I didn't say anything about Foden's ability, explosiveness or football IQ other than he is routinely lambasted for looking absolutely lost outside of a setup that has hand-reared him, which shouldn't happen to universal talent - it's called that for a reason. You've unironically repeated a part of my own post back to me with saying England need to conform for Foden to come to the fore. I've just stated that Foden has looked lost without the system and your counter is to provide a system.
These systems are not creating free-thinkers. Even the umbrella term for free-thinking is changing because we're wowed by players who look like they are capable of disinvolving from the system for periods of play before plugging back into the mainframe again. If football development was linear, we'd have all-conquering bots emerging left, right and centre who look exceptional within the remits of the system as well as fantastic without the system. That is not what's happening. One is in lieu of the other, for the most part, which is why the likes of Yamal are placed on a pedestal because so few around look like they can do what he is doing. As much as people seem to loathe it, clubs vis-à-vis nations will continue to prove the barometer and the subsequent nosedive in performance we see so often from players who look like beasts within an automated system to actually having to think and function in chaos or suboptimal setups will remain both the barometer and key talking point because this shouldn't happen if individual brilliance is running parallel with the harsh confines of systems that remove most of the thought burdens from players who are essentially on tracks.
Clubs and players are succeeding or failing because of the strength/weakness of the system - heroism by way of individual brilliance is waning; moments of unbridled brilliance to win games is fading; to the very end, some teams and players remain wedded to the strictures of the system to the very last pattern and kick of a ball to the point a player who dares to think outside the box at even more critical moments in a game will be chided, potentially subbed and might even see playing time reduced.
Of course that drives the bottom level up. It severely compromises the top end, however. Problem solvers, maestros and the type of player who doesn't need the system to be in his element are seeing their expression curtailed, and many of the lauded creative sparks of the past wouldn't get playing time now for their maverick ways or ability to take on the burden of being decisive factors in pressure situations. We'll see even less individualism as the youngsters being coached to absolute conformity to the system take centre stage. Automatisms likely to look better than ever, with expression and individual brilliance at their nadir. Or, in your idealistic view, a marriage between the two and hyper-bots with eclecticism the likes of which we've never seen will take the game by storm...
Again, using age as an excuse. Typical. Many people of all backgrounds who observe football at its depth have pointed out the issue of lack of quality. Please come up with legitimate reasoning.
Yea it's because the median level is higher. Guys who used to look amazing talents in years past are now your Antonys and Gakpos...
The game breakers, those are the ATG level talents. The ones you scoff at in the BdO thread. Nedved and Owen and Shevchenko and Figo won it yet Vini - who has been every bit as good or better than any of those guys for the past 3 years for club - is now a weak winner somehow...
You'll not see anything but praise for Vini from me. And there's no way that first sentence is true. What has somehow become legion is that not only has the bottom level has been dragged up, but that the median has too, not factoring in the severe drop off at the top, which keeps things exactly how they were with perhaps with a negative shift as ideally, you want to see the best get better and have the rest fight amongst themselves. What'll erase most of the uppermost level is the lack of production (a young Neymar or C.Ronaldo would be made to stop 'dicking around' with the ball in accordance to the coaching schools of thought now), not the game itself becoming this all-encompassing Borg-like mass obliterating everything in its path.
The element of risk and also the single point failure in producing - but particularly - relying on these all-conquering players is what is being actively moved away from. It's great having a Maradona, Messi or what have you, but then becoming reliant on them and them having so much say and sway on how an entire campaign goes is absolutely not what these clubs are aiming for. As far as the game goes, it makes sense. In terms of entertainment and production, or even maintenance of the brilliance that has preceded, there's a real problem.
I think, also, this notion that talent isn't being acknowledged is utterly false. Moreso than ever we're falling over ourselves when talent comes along because it's in shorter supply. You're just going to be waiting a lot, lot longer for the next <insert exceptionally talented individual> because the game is actively working away from them.
The "you" was plural, not referring to you specifically
of course it is. Better training, better coaching, better nutrition, better medical care, etc. The talent base is the same as always, but players(and teams) are now on average way way better than in the past. It's only with the very best players where there's not much difference
The best aren't worse. We've just had 15 years of Messi and Cristiano ffs. How can that possibly be worse. The best aren't necessarily better than they were in the past and even when they are it's mostly down to superior athleticism, which is countered by the median level(athleticism) being so much higher than at any other point in history
Neymar never stopped dicking around with the ball, and neither is Vini. Cristiano wasn't about not dicking around, it was being effective. Ronaldo and Rivaldo never did that stuff, while Dinho lasted 4 years because of it
Why? Vini isn't brilliant? Mbappé? Lamine Yamal? De Bruyne? Saka? Salah? Musiala? Olise? Dani Olmo? Palmer?
It isn't, we're not - hello, 17 year old Messi-level talent - and there aren't any fewer individual geniuses now than in the past, not in any significant way
This drags the bottom level up. You can't get away with winging it as much. So long as you're competent enough to follow instructions to the wire, you are of great use to the hive mind. I'd argue Mourinho initially ushered the principle in with his midfields and instructions to stifle and kill games by sticking strictly to the one or two specific taks given, or literally be hooked. He also mostly removed expression at Chelsea, or better to say, reduced it to as many as we see allowed to take chances in the modern game.The "you" was plural, not referring to you specifically
of course it is. Better training, better coaching, better nutrition, better medical care, etc. The talent base is the same as always, but players(and teams) are now on average way way better than in the past. It's only with the very best players where there's not much difference
Middling players are still there, where they were, they are just utilised differently. It's at the very top where things fall apart and show massive decline.
Add to the bottom whilst taking from the top does not improve the average.
You're kinda invalidating your point here. Neither Messi nor Ronaldo are part of this conversation and are a supporting pillar for what has gone, not what is here or has been ushered in in the past few years. It's only by longevity and desire to keep playing that they are still active and the last time they were 'themselves' is pushing literal years now.
This is a conversation for what is here and active at or near their primes as well as what is coming up behind them. Messi, Neymar, C.Ronaldo and all those hitting mid 30's (or even early 30's) aren't on the table here, it successors for all of them that are.
The point is how they would be treated coming up as younglings now. Madrid is also an outlier, as cited in my post. You're one of few fighting against the system, so how your players develop - at least until you conform - is a point against not for what we're seeing. You're one of few clubs where attackers still get to express themselves to the fulllest first and foremost.
Im pretty sure you're aware of how underwhelming and damning that list is when contrasted to the talent and individualism seen in 5year increments of the past.
I mean... and funny coming from an Italian where decimation at #10 is amongst the worst decline in the world!
In the past you get what you refer to plus talents to rival. Now we have a Golden Child that we better pray isn't ruined by club and country as, if he drops the torch, who the hell picks it up?
Yes, that's my point
No. Middling players are waaaaay better now than the middling players from 20 years ago. Guys like Antony would look like Robben in the PL of the early 00s, is my point. The top hasn't declined. The bottom got better
And how are Mbappé, Vinicius, Bellingham, Foden, Pedri, Haaland, Palmer, Kvara, Saka, Odegaard, Rodrygo, Nico Williams, Olise, Barcola, Vitinha, Valverde, Musiala, Wirtz, etc worse than the past? They only are in the context of not having a Messi around - and we actually do have that too, now
except it isn't, like at all. None of these guys are worse than their predecessors. There aren't even fewer of them, either. Who were the young guys 5 years ago? 10? 20? Aside from the obvious 2, which are historical outliers, the rest is the same
Sure, Italy has stopped producing great players. Meanwhile England has Bellingham, Palmer and Foden. Spain has Pedri and Dani Olmo, Germany has Wirtz and Musiala...
It is Italy that has declined, not football as a whole
Not really. Messi and Cristiano are outliers. Usually, it's one guy like that, replacing an older version. Di Stefano > Pelé > Cruyff > Platini > Maradona > Ronaldo > Messi
Lamine Yamal is currently competing with Mbappé, Haaland, Vinicius and Musiala, there's Endrick and then Willian Estevao coming up as well
Football could be both passing and expression
You’ve caught yourself in a catch 22 here. We’ve seen true individual brilliance shattering the system, overloading it and providing contingencies before the system can recover. We call such players game breakers, as does Pep. They are becoming fewer and farther between and it's not because football or its current systems are amazing, all-conquering entities, as we see routinely with Real Madrid, the last of the dying breed, routinely being kings of Europe.
Your bolded is a strawman you've just argued against with little input from me as I didn't say anything about Foden's ability, explosiveness or football IQ other than he is routinely lambasted for looking absolutely lost outside of a setup that has hand-reared him, which shouldn't happen to universal talent - it's called that for a reason. You've unironically repeated a part of my own post back to me with saying England need to conform for Foden to come to the fore. I've just stated that Foden has looked lost without the system and your counter is to provide a system.
These systems are not creating free-thinkers. Even the umbrella term for free-thinking is changing because we're wowed by players who look like they are capable of disinvolving from the system for periods of play before plugging back into the mainframe again. If football development was linear, we'd have all-conquering bots emerging left, right and centre who look exceptional within the remits of the system as well as fantastic without the system. That is not what's happening. One is in lieu of the other, for the most part, which is why the likes of Yamal are placed on a pedestal because so few around look like they can do what he is doing. As much as people seem to loathe it, clubs vis-à-vis nations will continue to prove the barometer and the subsequent nosedive in performance we see so often from players who look like beasts within an automated system to actually having to think and function in chaos or suboptimal setups will remain both the barometer and key talking point because this shouldn't happen if individual brilliance is running parallel with the harsh confines of systems that remove most of the thought burdens from players who are essentially on tracks.
Clubs and players are succeeding or failing because of the strength/weakness of the system - heroism by way of individual brilliance is waning; moments of unbridled brilliance to win games is fading; to the very end, some teams and players remain wedded to the strictures of the system to the very last pattern and kick of a ball to the point a player who dares to think outside the box at even more critical moments in a game will be chided, potentially subbed and might even see playing time reduced.
Of course that drives the bottom level up. It severely compromises the top end, however. Problem solvers, maestros and the type of player who doesn't need the system to be in his element are seeing their expression curtailed, and many of the lauded creative sparks of the past wouldn't get playing time now for their maverick ways or ability to take on the burden of being decisive factors in pressure situations. We'll see even less individualism as the youngsters being coached to absolute conformity to the system take centre stage. Automatisms likely to look better than ever, with expression and individual brilliance at their nadir. Or, in your idealistic view, a marriage between the two and hyper-bots with eclecticism the likes of which we've never seen will take the game by storm...
Foden is an example for how you contradict yourself. If he possesses all those attributes, what is he lacking? And do you really believe Yamal would like as good for this England team?
Every brillant pass needs a receiver, every dribbling needs somebody that has created space for it.
If I haven't given a personal opinion on Foden so how can I possibly contradict myself regarding him? The point in using him as an example is he's an extremely highly celebrated system player who people have had 180⁰'s about after watching him outside of the system looking completely lost and without function.
There has to be a brilliant pass in the first place, and dribbling point isn't at all true as that's within the boundaries of the person and their ability to beat a man and pry open space by themselves.
Yamal would look like an exceptional talent being wasted; he wouldn't look all lost at sea like Foden.
Most of the England players looked lost, I'm not sure which didn't outside of Palmer.
It's a lot harder to stand out now, team quality has just shot up on average.
Who's the most exciting player to watch in today's game?
What other example there is out there, though? I can't think of anyone else this applies to
Endrick of course
But that's the difference between Palmer and Mainoo Vs Foden. They use their initiative, they try to solve problems, they try to go on their own if they have to. Foden is waiting to receive the ball in the right space at the right time and if it doesn't come he basically just recycles the ball most of the game.
Saka is a bit of a halfway, he's definitely a system player but also able to improvise at times. He's slightly less depressing than Foden.
Vinicius.
Dribbling absolutely does rely on your team mates. As an extreme example, if you would be the only player on your team allowed to cross the half way line, the opponent could just hopelessly outnumber you 10 to 1. He obviously won't do it because the moment he does, the rest of the pitch is left open for your team mates to exploit. And that is basically the essence of defending: Your primary concern is always the space you leave open behind you and only then you worry about the player carrying the ball. When he has no options to release the ball into a threatening space, that is when you pressure him. The passing lanes have to be covered first.
Of course somebody like Messi is able to exploit tinier spaces than Foden although the latter is also very good at it. But even Messi's dribbling relies on his team mates' movement. Actually, I would especially Messi does because his dribbling profits immensely from his passing abilities. Messi loves it (and said so in an interview) when opponents get close to him because he can then just turn on them. So as a defender, you'd prefer to keep a bit of a distance to him. But on the other hand, he dissects you with through balls if you put no pressure on him, even if he has the ball at the height of the halfway line. Those thorugh balls however are only possible because of the runs inbehind his team mates provide him with. Meaning those runs impact how defenders in completely different areas of the pitch have to behave.
And that is actually what England was missing during the EC. They had almost no runners so that the half spaces in which Foden operates were very dense. No player looks good if he finds himself constantly outnumbered. England made it easy for their opponents because they didn't stretch them at all. Thing is that those tactical details are executed at a far higher level than 20 years ago. The greats of the past wouldn't look any better in a team that fails so colossally at creating situations in which their pöayers can exploit their strengths. And as said, we've seen enough undeniably genius level players having super quiet games when they dound those dynamics working against them and not in their favor.
Flair has been coached out of players for decades - I went to school with a lad who could genuinely dribble past the team up and down the pitch twice and score have a trial with Cardiff City (by no means the pinnacle of system play back then) and he came back from that a completely different player and would just pass and move while never even trying to dribble past a player.
No doubt there were "better" flair players than him on that trial, but to see it completely coached out of him over such a short period of time was crazy and I didn't quite comprehend it back then.
No doubt there were "better" flair players than him on that trial, but to see it completely coached out of him over such a short period of time was crazy and I didn't quite comprehend it back then.
I don't think Mainoo has shown that yet, but you are making a criticism against solving the problem as a team against doing it individually. Just seems silly to me.
But all teams, no matter how good, have moments where they aren't on it or the opposition have worked out how to counter their system. At that point you need some cnut like Steven Gerrard to step up and smash one in from 25 yards or Bergkamp to do something outrageous or Zidane or Cantona or Zola or whoever. Someone who can simplify the game down to a 1v1, get the better of the opponent and do something the team as a whole couldn't.
That's why City needed Haaland to win the CL. His game is super simple but if he gets you one on one in the right place it doesn't matter who passed him the ball, how or when, he's going to create a yard and smash it at the goal. That's pure individualism even if it's not the most exciting kind like perhaps Ronaldinho exhibited.
And I would argue Mainoo doesn't show it regularly but he definitely has shown the ability. I can't think of a goal he has scored that wasn't just a "feck it, I'm going to do something" moment. Think Wolves and Liverpool. That was what the England fans were excited about in the last tournament too, he was happy to take responsibility and try to create something in a different way high up the pitch. You might say it left the midfield exposed at times behind him perhaps, but he's young and needs time to learn the right times to do those things. He also needs to be in a system where his teammates can adapt if he goes off script and cover for him if he's out of position. Nonetheless it's the sort of thing fans watch football for, not to watch Phil Foden wait for the next triangle to align. It's not to say that sort of football can't be good to watch, but it's predictable and dull if that's all you can do, even when it's effective.
Just the one then.
Yes there is only one most exciting player. In the Prem it's probably Palmer, De Bruyne, Son, Kulusewski, Kudus, Mitoma, or Bruno. Not terribly exciting compared to days of yore but still, it's not just one player who can get you off your seat. We actually have a few, Garnacho for example. The problem is they're just not as good and consistent as some previous generations because that's not where the focus is in the modern game unfortunately.
P.s. when I say De Bruyne isn't consistent I don't mean he's not consistently good, I mean he's not consistently exciting and full of flair.
Agree and the wide players you've mentioned all practically do the same thing, just to varying levels of consistency.
That's not to say they don't have their moments but there's something so familiar and samey with them, and would put Saka, Yamal in that lot too, that it all becomes quite dull and lacking in character/personality.
See, I think Rashford was a hugely exciting player up until the last couple of seasons. He was a tremendously skillful player.
With him though its not a case of it being coached out if his game, more a case of him losing interest in it.
Not reading this thread, it's probably been mentioned already, but surely this is just down to the move away from individual flair/creativity/brilliance to pep-ball?
Yet football has moved away from that because it doesn't create consistency.
Haaland is a terrible example because in the difficult games he produces almost nothing. He is way more often a crutch in big games than a positive.
Mainoo will develop, and im not sure its clear what kind of player he will become, he has the talent to do many things. At the moment he plays a very standard midfield role for United and England. That "feck it, I'm going to do something" moment doesn't happen half as much as it used to in football, its been phased out and replaced with team solutions to problems.
It’s easier to coach players to pass and move than it is for someone to have the natural talent flair players of the past had.
Players are more athletic now, and coached better but football as a whole is far less exciting due too it.
Players are more athletic now, and coached better but football as a whole is far less exciting due too it.
Rubbish. Haaland had a bad season last year (by his standards) but it is no coincidence that City stopped being a nearly man team when he arrived.
Gundogan is another one actually who steps up and breaks the City mould when needed at times when they're struggling. He then slots seamlessly back into the system though, which is no doubt why Pep loves him so much.
I'm not one for being nostalgic but there were so many players in the 90's and 00's that I would watch even if I had little to no interest in the team they were playing for. Now, not so much.
He didn't do anything in the CL when they won it, he disappeared Vs the stronger teams.
I think that's partly because the bottom level has gone up as well though. For example was Juninho at Middlesbrough far more exciting than e.g. Kudus? Or did he stand out more because he was head and shoulders the best player in the side too? Kudus is arguably not even in West Ham's top 3.
Wanchope at Derby kind of the same.
Admittedly, the likes of Valeron, Riquelme and Le Tissier are players you just seem to barely get nowadays which is a great shame.
And yet he was being double marked throughout.