Florian Wirtz | Leverkusen player

Zehner said:
So he was just voted Bundesliga Player of the Month for the second time this season. Think this deserves a bump ;)

Here's a nice, fast paced compilation of his year 2023. A few more recent scenes like his great solo vs Stuttgart and the nice lob against Frankfurt are still missing but it still gives a good impression of his season so far:

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It's interesting because I don't think he's been as good this season as last season, after his return from injury, and the season before he got injured. Yet, he is rated very highly from multiple websites (Fotmob and Whoscored have him as 7th best in the league). Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, or he hasn't improved as much as I hope he would have.

He certainly isn't Leverkusen's best player this season, that is Grimaldo, with Frimpong and Palacios also having great seasons that can be argued as being better than Wirtz.

giorno said:
I think he's really good but also bundesliga tax, so who knows. He looks agile/explosive enough at least

Should be City, Arsenal or Liverpool i think
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I was about to say Madrid should be one of the last teams to talk about Bundesliga tax, you've signed some bangers from the league lately (Kroos, Alaba, Bellingham), but then again I think that Jovic hurts still :lol:
 
hasanejaz88 said:
It's interesting because I don't think he's been as good this season as last season, after his return from injury, and the season before he got injured. Yet, he is rated very highly from multiple websites (Fotmob and Whoscored have him as 7th best in the league). Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, or he hasn't improved as much as I hope he would have.

He certainly isn't Leverkusen's best player this season, that is Grimaldo, with Frimpong and Palacios also having great seasons that can be argued as being better than Wirtz.



I was about to say Madrid should be one of the last teams to talk about Bundesliga tax, you've signed some bangers from the league lately (Kroos, Alaba, Bellingham), but then again I think that Jovic hurts still :lol:
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In my opinion he's our best player this season and it is not even particularly close. I think most Leverkusen fans will agree on that. The effect he has when he is rested and then subbed in is transformative. He has matured enormously since last season especially in terms of ball retention as well as finishing. He is not only getting into much more situations in which he can score, he's also more composed. That's also backed up by the stats (75% passing accuracy --> 82%; 0.02 goals - xG --> 0.07; 0.07 xG per 90 --> 0.28). He even improved in chance creation and ball progression. He should be in the discussion for player of the season if he keeps it up.

After him, it is a little bit more difficult since all of Grimaldo, Frimpong, Xhaka, Palacios, Kossounou and Boniface deserve to be in the conversation for runner up. I'd probably go with Xhaka, he's been incredible.
 
pocco said:
As good as he looks, we won't be buying him. We've just signed Mount, already have Bruno (ETH won't touch him).
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Would not mind that, truth be told; Wirtz is an outstanding talent but he will need top-shelf coaching and structure to justify his price tag, and as things stand, we cannot ensure good developmental practises as an organization. Plus, Shea Lacey is a similar profile of player and playmaker in terms of press resistance, ball progression as a carrier or passer, intuition for occupying the right spaces, and versatility to operate out wide or centrally...and will turn 17 years old in a few months. The €100 million (plus wages) required to bring Wirtz to Manchester United could be equitably distributed to fortify other departments as we undertake yet another root-and-branch overhaul (this time hampered by the threat of Financial Fairplay sanctions) — all while Lacey rehabilitates from his injury, finetunes his decision-making and undergoes physical maturation to, hopefully, supplement and then supplant certain members of the First Team in due time. Same goes for João Neves as a prospective transfer target — obviously a wonderful talent, but will also cost €100 million (plus wages) — perhaps we should consider someone with disparate characteristics when we have a similar profile of midfielder in Kobbie Mainoo. Of course, no one really knows how Mainoo and Lacey (and by extension the likes of Garnacho, Amass et cetera) will develop vis-à-vis highly-rated external options, especially when some of these lads have not even made their First Team debuts. Maybe this assessment will be deemed foolish with the benefit of hindsight. But, Manchester United should always provide appropriate pathways for the most talented academy graduates, doubly so when we need to rebuild and can employ a more patient and intentional method.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I was about to say Madrid should be one of the last teams to talk about Bundesliga tax, you've signed some bangers from the league lately (Kroos, Alaba, Bellingham), but then again I think that Jovic hurts still :lol:
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Bundesliga tax is real, it applies to attackers, and is not a hard constant - some guys are genuinely just so good it doesn't apply to them

Point is it's often difficult when evaluating attackers doing well in that league how much it's the player being great and how much it's the league being particularly attack-friendly
 
giorno said:
Bundesliga tax is real, it applies to attackers, and is not a hard constant - some guys are genuinely just so good it doesn't apply to them

Point is it's often difficult when evaluating attackers doing well in that league how much it's the player being great and how much it's the league being particularly attack-friendly
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Bellingham scores way more goals for you than he did in the attacking-friendly Bundesliga.
 
ForEverEleven said:
Surely doesnt indicate that any league is more attacking-friendly than the other when there are several examples going in both directions.
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The bundesliga averages over 3 goals per game every season. Nobody else comes close. It's an hilariously easy league for attackers
 
giorno said:
The bundesliga averages over 3 goals per game every season. Nobody else comes close. It's an hilariously easy league for attackers
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20-25% more goals compared to La Liga which is significant but not anything crazy. You have a point as most Bundesliga teams are terrible at defending with the ball and produce lots of turnovers but you exaggerate a little.

And if that is even relevant when a player moves to Madrid or Barca is debatable since those teams create more chances than most Bundesliga teams anyway. Haaland is the best example since it is even easier for him to score for City than for Dortmund because of City's attacking capabilities.
 
Zehner said:
20-25% more goals compared to La Liga which is significant but not anything crazy. You have a point as most Bundesliga teams are terrible at defending with the ball and produce lots of turnovers but you exaggerate a little.
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20/25% IS in fact a crazy difference

And if that is even relevant when a player moves to Madrid or Barca is debatable since those teams create more chances than most Bundesliga teams anyway. Haaland is the best example since it is even easier for him to score for City than for Dortmund because of City's attacking capabilities.
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It is relevant because there is more that goes into it than just quality of team. Take Havertz, a guy who did really well in the bundesliga, went to a comparatively better team in the PL(by which I mean Chelsea vs PL > Leverkusen vs Bundes) and simply failed to perform anywhere near

Haaland was always an obvious freak of nature, same with Bellingham(nevermind the goalscoring, that's a result of tactical context+golden run of form) but for many other players it's much harder to tell
 
giorno said:
20/25% IS in fact a crazy difference


It is relevant because there is more that goes into it than just quality of team. Take Havertz, a guy who did really well in the bundesliga, went to a comparatively better team in the PL(by which I mean Chelsea vs PL > Leverkusen vs Bundes) and simply failed to perform anywhere near

Haaland was always an obvious freak of nature, same with Bellingham(nevermind the goalscoring, that's a result of tactical context+golden run of form) but for many other players it's much harder to tell
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It means a player who scored 12 and 12 will score 10 and 10 (actually a bit more since there are less games in the BL).

Havertz came into a club in disarray and was played in new positions. And Chelsea wasn't a team that created loads of chances anyway. It all comes down to the team, not the league.

And Bellingham wasn't even close to the version that Madrid got for Dortmund. He's playing much, much better now.
 
giorno said:
20/25% IS in fact a crazy difference


It is relevant because there is more that goes into it than just quality of team. Take Havertz, a guy who did really well in the bundesliga, went to a comparatively better team in the PL(by which I mean Chelsea vs PL > Leverkusen vs Bundes) and simply failed to perform anywhere near

Haaland was always an obvious freak of nature, same with Bellingham(nevermind the goalscoring, that's a result of tactical context+golden run of form) but for many other players it's much harder to tell
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Respectfully, the Spanish league, especially for Real Madrid, is also not the PL. Bellingham is just bigger and stronger than everyone in Spain and I highly doubt he’s be doing the same in the PL, unless perhaps at City and that’s again just because they are so dominant.

Regarding Wirtz, as good as he looks, I’d be very skeptical over committing the 100m required for a player of his profile from the BuLi. The likes of Gotze, Havertz, Sancho, Sahin were ultimately nowhere near as good as many initially thought (I never saw Gotze as the special talent he was made out to be personally). I appreciate that Gotze didn’t leave Germany, but still, he couldn’t handle what was a step up.

Perhaps Wirtz may work at City, but what I am confident of is that he’s look nowhere near a 100m player at Manchester United.
 
Zehner said:
It means a player who scored 12 and 12 will score 10 and 10 (actually a bit more since there are less games in the BL).
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No, not really

Havertz came into a club in disarray and was played in new positions. And Chelsea wasn't a team that created loads of chances anyway. It all comes down to the team, not the league.
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Chelsea won the CL in his first season and were a top 5 team in the world in his second. They did create quite a bit too. Just A) the PL is stronger but with significantly better defences, so attacks create less all around. This is why Bayern pisses over everybody else every season in terms of attacking output in the league. And why most years, the top bundesliga attacks tend to be comparatively better than the top attacks of the other leagues - it's just that much easier to create and score in germany
 
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Rozay said:
Respectfully, the Spanish league, especially for Real Madrid, is also not the PL. Bellingham is just bigger and stronger than everyone in Spain and I highly doubt he’s be doing the same in the PL, unless perhaps at City and that’s again just because they are so dominant.
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I don't disagree except for the last point(about City), though I don't exactly agree either. I'd be curious about Bellingham in the PL. You're wrong about him being bigger and stronger being his edge though - it's his agility and quickness that LaLiga players struggle with(which is also why he *really* struggled against Gavi, one of the few midfielders who are quicker/more explosive than him)
 
Rozay said:
Regarding Wirtz, as good as he looks, I’d be very skeptical over committing the 100m required for a player of his profile from the BuLi. The likes of Gotze, Havertz, Sancho, Sahin were ultimately nowhere near as good as many initially thought (I never saw Gotze as the special talent he was made out to be personally). I appreciate that Gotze didn’t leave Germany, but still, he couldn’t handle what was a step up.
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Götze had health problems and never fully recovered. That's sad, but it's a big reason why he didn't live up to his potential. But otherwise I agree with you, it has been mostly the not that expensive players from the BL who impressed elsewhere and made the step up (like Akanji, Gündogan, Firmino, Son...)
 
ForEverEleven said:
Bellingham scores way more goals for you than he did in the attacking-friendly Bundesliga.
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Bellingham played as a central midfielder in Germany - and now is one of the 3 attackers. His xA stayed the same but he gets better shooting positions - and he overperforms his xG right now by 100% - so we maybe should wait how that develops.
 
giorno said:
I don't disagree except for the last point(about City), though I don't exactly agree either. I'd be curious about Bellingham in the PL. You're wrong about him being bigger and stronger being his edge though - it's his agility and quickness that LaLiga players struggle with(which is also why he *really* struggled against Gavi, one of the few midfielders who are quicker/more explosive than him)
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Perhaps, but I see that ultimately as semantics. The point is, Bellingham has an athleticism advantage in Spain. By Spanish standards especially, I don’t see him as a supremely gifted midfielder.

Greenwood didn’t play for 18 months and people are watching him at Getafe and saying he looks like he’s gotten faster. The issue is, in La Liga - you can come up against many full backs with the same physical profile as Bruno Fernandes. No speed or strength, but perhaps great stamina and football intelligence. These players will undoubtedly have a great cross or something, but Greenwood is finding it easy to simply power past them.

I would expect Wirtz to struggle at United personally.
 
giorno said:
The bundesliga averages over 3 goals per game every season. Nobody else comes close. It's an hilariously easy league for attackers
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It’s ridiculous to claim the Bundesliga isn’t attacking friendly. It obviously is. Which in itself is in no way a comment on the quality. It’s just the style.
 
giorno said:
Bundesliga tax is real, it applies to attackers, and is not a hard constant - some guys are genuinely just so good it doesn't apply to them

Point is it's often difficult when evaluating attackers doing well in that league how much it's the player being great and how much it's the league being particularly attack-friendly
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Haaland Aubameyang Lewandowski Bellingham Sane Son all didn't get affected

Actually it's mostly for transfers into clusterfecks like United and Chelsea

The same club where attackers from every league have flopped including Higuain Torres Shevchenko Alexis Lukaku Morata Cavani Mudryk Sterling Mhikitaryan Harvetz Martial DiMaria etc
 
Rozay said:
The point is, Bellingham has an athleticism advantage in Spain. By Spanish standards especially, I don’t see him as a supremely gifted midfielder.
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First point is correct. Second point, no. Watch him more. He is absolutely supremely gifted, by spanish standards or any standard really
 
kaiser1 said:
Haaland Aubameyang Lewandowski Bellingham Sane Son all didn't get affected

Actually it's mostly for transfers into clusterfecks like United and Chelsea

The same club where attackers from every league have flopped including Higuain Torres Shevchenko Alexis Lukaku Morata Cavani Mudryk Sterling Mhikitaryan Harvetz Martial DiMaria etc
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There's been studies about this mate. Comparison across top 5 leagues found out bundesliga players nearly always produce more in the bundesliga than anywhere else. The other 4 are closer and non-linear(strikers do better in Spain than Italy, Italy than England, England than Spain, Spain than France, etc. Iirc. Study was from a few years ago though so chances are nowadays PL would show as the hardest)
 
giorno said:
There's been studies about this mate. Comparison across top 5 leagues found out bundesliga players nearly always produce more in the bundesliga than anywhere else. The other 4 are closer and non-linear(strikers do better in Spain than Italy, Italy than England, England than Spain, Spain than France, etc. Iirc. Study was from a few years ago though so chances are nowadays PL would show as the hardest)
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Italy is a defensive league, there are probably studies that show that as well
Given the number of players from Italy that have flopped in England and largely across Europe, Is there a Serie A tax?

I am sure there are almost equal or more Italian flops. I can give 10 names without thinking too hard about it
 
kaiser1 said:
Italy is a defensive league, there are probably studies that show that as well
Given the number of players from Italy that have flopped in England and largely across Europe, Is there a Serie A tax?
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Depends. For English and French clubs, yes there is. For Spanish and German clubs, it's more like a tax exemption. Just in general, the difference in attacking production across those 4 leagues is more limited. Bundes to PL had something like an average 30% drop in production which is crazy

Italy isn't a particularly defensive league either. Spain is more defensive these days
 
giorno said:
Depends. For English and French clubs, yes there is. For Spanish and German clubs, it's more like a tax exemption. Just in general, the difference in attacking production across those 4 leagues is more limited. Bundes to PL had something like an average 30% drop in production which is crazy

Italy isn't a particularly defensive league either. Spain is more defensive these days
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How many Serie A players to Germany and Spain have been excellent? I remember Immobile Benatia Piatek as well being a big flop in Germany and Spain
I see many Bundesliga exports doing very well in Italy. Half of Inter Milan starting 11 that beat Lazio 3-0 yesterday once played in Germany. Sommer Pavard Mkhi Canhaloglu Thuram

Spain to EPL transfers that didnt work out like Nolito, Lucas Perez, Robinho, DiMaria etc Is there a La Liga tax
 
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This whole BL tax discussion shouldn't be looked at from the viewpoint of demeaning the quality of the league, but rather a comment on the tactics of the league.

I would agree that it is easier for attackers in this league because of the hyper aggressive pressing used by most clubs, thereby leaving a lot of space behind, but at the same time it also makes defenders look worse than they are. It's been suprising to see defenders who weren't considered as some of the best in the league becoming important players in top sides in the EPL.

Matip was distinctively average, albeit talented at a young age, at Schalke and became a key player in Liverpool's title winning seasons. Akanji declined at Dortmund but somehow became a starter almost immediately at City and helped them win the treble. Konate was considered highly talented but look at his last season at RB and he was barely getting a game. Micky Van Der Ven didn't stand out at Wolfsburg but is now looking like a great defender at Spurs.

I don't think the lack of success of Sancho and Havertz has all to do with the difference in tactics between the leagues, I think mental strength has a lot more to do with it, but you can't compeltely discount it.
 
kaiser1 said:
How many Serie A players to Germany and Spain have been excellent
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No idea, i didn't make the study, i read it a while ago. And it focused on attacking output, from attackers. You listed a bunch of players of which only 1 is an attacker...
hasanejaz88 said:
I would agree that it is easier for attackers in this league because of the hyper aggressive pressing used by most clubs, thereby leaving a lot of space behind, but at the same time it also makes defenders look worse than they are. It's been suprising to see defenders who weren't considered as some of the best in the league becoming important players in top sides in the EPL.
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yeah that should be the other side of the coin. In theory it should be a really good league to evaluate defenders
 
Lovely player to watch, hard to ignore the torn cruciate ligament at 18 though. Even in the modern day, there's a risk of that recurring
 
Apparently Alonso wants to bring him in as his first signing for Liverpool. Not a bad beginning hopefully.
 
He could only really replace Bruno, and he isn't going anywhere. Don't see this one coming here at all, even though he's lovely.
 
Zehner said:
Hoping [Irrelevant point - unless we are talking about F1] takes him with him to Madrid in 2025 or 2026 personally
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I could see that too if Mr Irrelevant goes there. Lots of dominos ready to fall and Wirtz looks to be one of the biggest next to Mr Irrelevant and Mbappe.
 
Too simplistic to think he'll just follow Xabi to his next club?
 
njred said:
Apparently [Irrelevant point - unless we are talking about F1] wants to bring him in as his first signing for Liverpool. Not a bad beginning hopefully.
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Zehner said:
Hoping [Irrelevant point - unless we are talking about F1] takes him with him to Madrid in 2025 or 2026 personally
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What's happening here? Did I miss something with regards to our coach? :D
 
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