Ferdinand or Vidic in their pomp

Dion said:
I can see the point, but there are lots of countries, lots of clubs with successful/more successful periods in their history, some of them have had better central defenders than Rio. That is part of it, but there is much more to it than that.
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Yeh, I did admit that it wasn't really a logical conclusion, but I think the point stands in that the greatest ever Manchester United defender, by default, has got to be somewhere near the top given the success of United in general. Another way of looking at it is to say that he's probably the best defender the Premiership - one of the top 3 leagues in football over the past 20 years - has had to offer. Again, the same point may stand in regards to, say, other countries and leagues having stronger defenders, but it's difficult eventually not to come to the conclusion that he's going to be seen as a legendary defender when his career finishes.

Saying that, there's something incredibly strange about the way we look at football in this country, and Ferdinand has suffered (well, not really given his career) because of this. I bet if you went round and every single football fan in this country who they would've prefered at their best out of Terry and Ferdinand in 10 years, 95% would probably say the former, such is the influence of the media on the opinions of your average football fan.
 
Ferdinands general opinion is tarnished by the propensity in his early career to make howlers, something which (despite pretty much eradicating them from his game half a decade ago) has dogged peoples opinion of him with the exception of people who watch him day in/day out. Van Der Sar would probably suffer from it in England if he'd had the period at Juventus at an English club (and was English). But because he wasn't playing for an English club at the time people take what he does in England on merit alone without baggage.

It's the reason he's always tagged alongside Terry/Cole/Rooney/Gerrard as a typical English thug when he's been nothing but a faultless role model for ages now. English people have a habit of refusing to move on and it's a credit to Ferdinand as a player and person that he hasn't let it stop him maturing like it can do with others.
 
Dion said:
Ferdinand one of the greatest of all time? Really... Baresi, Beckenbauer level? I'm sorry but that's simply not the case.
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Dion said:
Which year was Rio the best player in the world? Because for the life of me I cant remember him even winning Manchester United's player of the season, never mind the Ballon D'or. I dont think he's ever had a season where he's been Man Utd's best player, never mind the best player in the world.

The media argument is just your way of trying to argue around the point without addressing it. Ferdinand only truly matured into a consistantly world class player when he was partnered by Vidic, that says more than anything about the 'limitations' of Ferdinand's game.


In no particular order, not the best 10 but a mix of the most obvious/stylistically similar/contemporary;
Maldini
Moore
Beckenbauer
Baresi
Passarella
Krol
Costacurta
Desailly
Koeman
Scirea
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You can strike Koeman off that list immediately. Rio pisses on him from a great height as a defender.

Those products of Italian football played with a defence first mentality around them as a team. That made their jobs a lot easier than what Rio faces in an attacking team playing with a high line. Incidentally, Vidic would look even better in a defensive side, whilst Rio would be rated even higher than he is.

Beckenbauer wouldn't be a CB in the modern game, he'd sit in front of someone like Rio and run a game in a more impressive fashion than even Scholes at his best could.

Rio circa 2008 isn't in the shadow of any of those players as he was playing to a level they are associated with.
 
Fortitude said:
You can strike Koeman off that list immediately. Rio pisses on him from a great height as a defender.

Those products of Italian football played with a defence first mentality around them as a team. That made their jobs a lot easier than what Rio faces in an attacking team playing with a high line. Incidentally, Vidic would look even better in a defensive side, whilst Rio would be rated even higher than he is.

Beckenbauer wouldn't be a CB in the modern game, he'd sit in front of someone like Rio and run a game in a more impressive fashion than even Scholes at his best could.

Rio circa 2008 isn't in the shadow of any of those players as he was playing to a level they are associated with.
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All of that is subjective and somewhat irrelevant given I'd still count them as better centerbacks apart from the bolded bit, which is just wrong, nobody "pisses on" Koeman just like nobody "pisses on" Van Der Sar.

If people want an evolution of the sweeper or greatest defenders ever debate then fair enough, but in the football forum not in a Vidic vs Ferdinand thread.
 
Dion said:
All of that is subjective and somewhat irrelevant given I'd still count them as better centerbacks apart from the bolded bit, which is just wrong, nobody "pisses on" Koeman just like nobody "pisses on" Van Der Sar.

If people want an evolution of the sweeper or greatest defenders ever debate then fair enough, but in the football forum not in a Vidic vs Ferdinand thread.
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It's highly relevant if you're going to bring up a bunch of names I'm guessing you've seen little of.

And Koeman was no great shakes as a defender, certainly doesn't belong in the company you listed. All his merit comes from being an exceptional passer and set-piece taker.

You brought the subject up!
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I'd do the same but the other way round (with Vidic as the better) and I'd replace 'a level' with 'a little'.
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I think this is one of the few times that we agree.

For me Vidic>> Rio.

Maybe I'm biased because I like Vidic a lot more but for me we'd struggle more without Vidic than we would without Rio. Vidic has done marvelously to hold the defense together over the last few years during the half a season Rio always misses due to injury.

And also if ever there was an occasion where you needed someone to take one for the team and bring down an opposing player instead of conceding a goal I'd take Vidic. You rarely see Rio ready to get his hands dirty but Vidic always takes one for the team, even if it leads to a lot of yellows and bans.
 
Fortitude said:
It's highly relevant if you're going to bring up a bunch of names I'm guessing you've seen little of.
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I think you should stop guessing and try reading... you'd look less silly. I've already said I've seen plenty of all but 3; Moore, Beckenbauer and Krol and their exploits on the international stage and comments from those that played with/against them make them pretty solid choices.

Fortitude said:
And Koeman was no great shakes as a defender, certainly doesn't belong in the company you listed. All his merit comes from being an exceptional passer and set-piece taker.

You brought the subject up!
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You can say what you like about Koeman, I've watched plenty in one of the great Barcelona sides and for Holland to trust my own judgement over some random chump on the internet. Koemans excellent passing range and ability on the ball are part of what makes him such a great, but they aren't even close to being "all his merit" any more than they are for Ferdinand.

And fwiw I was asked to name 10 defenders I thought were better than Ferdinand, I didn't randomly come out with it.


And that last sentence by Wr8 is going to cause trouble, I can sense it.
 
Dion said:
I think you should stop guessing and try reading... you'd look less silly.


You can say what you like about Koeman, I've watched plenty in one of the great Barcelona sides and for Holland to trust my own judgement over some random chump on the internet. Koemans excellent passing range and ability on the ball are part of what makes him such a great, but they aren't even close to being "all his merit" any more than they are for Ferdinand.

And fwiw I was asked to name 10 defenders I thought were better than Ferdinand, I didn't randomly come out with it.
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:lol: Calm down.

You're talking bollocks if you think, by your own conclusion, that Koeman belongs in any discussion about defenders who are better than Ferdinand.
 
Dion said:
I think you should stop guessing and try reading... you'd look less silly. I've already said I've seen plenty of all but 3; Moore, Beckenbauer and Krol and their exploits on the international stage and comments from those that played with/against them make them pretty solid choices.


You can say what you like about Koeman, I've watched plenty in one of the great Barcelona sides and for Holland to trust my own judgement over some random chump on the internet. Koemans excellent passing range and ability on the ball are part of what makes him such a great, but they aren't even close to being "all his merit" any more than they are for Ferdinand.

And fwiw I was asked to name 10 defenders I thought were better than Ferdinand, I didn't randomly come out with it.


And that last sentence by Wr8 is going to cause trouble, I can sense it.
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Oh yes :lol:

9 people out of 10 here prefer Rio a lot more.
 
Anyway the PL is not a league of beautiful teams. It's a league of teams playing physical football and I love watching lower half teams pump in ball after ball only to be blocked out by Vidic time and again.

The number of aerial battles he wins is stunning.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
Did you see all them players play, Dion?
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Thats been addressed twice in this thread alone now.
Fortitude said:
:lol: Calm down.
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Ahh... we've resorted to that already have we? How dull.
Fortitude said:
You're talking bollocks if you think, by your own conclusion, that Koeman belongs in any discussion about defenders who are better than Ferdinand.
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Once again, highly subjective and I'm pretty sure lots in a more neutral setting would disagree with you.
 
Some decent posts Dion, but nah Koeman doesn't belong in that company.
 
Gio said:
Some decent posts Dion, but nah Koeman doesn't belong in that company.
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Replace him with Nesta or Hierro if you think it would help Fortitude sleep at night.
 
Koeman was a fat, flailing clogger when the pressure was on - the exact opposite of Baresi, Scirea, Ferdinand and a few others on that list. Adding to that, he was also slow once turned.

He was a smart cheat who should've been sent off a lot more times in his career than he was, like Van Bommel, for example.

With the ball at his feet, however, there have been few close to his class, as the man could hit any pass that was on with ease, like Beckenbauer.

You're either massively underrating just how fecking good Rio Ferdinand is/was, or completely overrating how good Ronaldo Koeman was.
 
Dion said:
Replace him with Nesta or Hierro if you think it would help Fortitude sleep at night.
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I find it interesting that even some United supporters don't realise how immense Rio Ferdinand at his best is, actually.

Carry on.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
Okay, how was Moore better then?
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You seriously expect me to get into an argument trying to subjectively prove one player is better than another on a site highly bias in one direction. Look at his performances in the World Cup in '66, not just his raw defensive attributes but his leadership skills as well. Even then you can just argue that he had better players playing around him than Ferdinand does now, it's an absolute shit-storm minefield of a question that's impossible to give a half decent answer to without someone being able to make a string of flippant technicalities to get people arguing in circles. Even in dismissing your question I'm probably going to get some self satisfied spiel about not talking about players you didn't grow up in the same house as, but I figure I'll waste less of my time this way.

If you can find a single poll where Ferdinand is rated ahead of Bobby Moore as a defender I'll argue it out with you for 100 pages in a thread in the football forum, if not then stop asking such banal questions you know the answer to but also know it's impossible to "prove" or put up some evidence to the contrary, it's easier to destroy than create and all that.
 
It is pretty hard to make an argument for a player you've only seen in a few international games, that's true.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
How high up is Rio on the list of your best defenders, Forty?
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In modern times, or overall?

In terms of a career we probably have to take into account that the likes of Baresi, Nesta, Beckenbauer and Maldini were immaculate from start to finish whilst Rio really came into his own after 25. That'd mark him down a bit in the grand scheme. In terms of peaks in the modern game, however, I think only Nesta in his pomp was above Ferdinand.
 
Dion said:
You seriously expect me to get into an argument trying to subjectively prove one player is better than another on a site highly bias in one direction. Look at his performances in the World Cup in '66, not just his raw defensive attributes but his leadership skills as well. Even then you can just argue that he had better players playing around him than Ferdinand does now, it's an absolute shit-storm minefield of a question that's impossible to give a half decent answer to without someone being able to make a string of flippant technicalities to get people arguing in circles. Even in dismissing your question I'm probably going to get some self satisfied spiel about not talking about players you didn't grow up in the same house as, but I figure I'll waste less of my time this way.

If you can find a single poll where Ferdinand is rated ahead of Bobby Moore as a defender I'll argue it out with you for 100 pages in a thread in the football forum, if not then stop asking such banal questions you know the answer to but also know it's impossible to "prove".
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I asked you why you thought Moore was better, you've said nothing to support your claim 'er...look at his performances in 66' is weak. How about comparing Bramble to Rio? who was the better defender? I'm sure you can compare players. Seriously, how was Moore better than Rio? I'm just curious.

How about listing both players' plus and negative points... I reckon it'd be a good start without getting your knickers in a twist.
 
Brwned said:
It is pretty hard to make an argument for a player you've only seen in a few international games, that's true.
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And there it is.

You have an opinion on which is the better player, Tevez or Ruud van Nistlerooy I assume. I also assume you've seen well over 100 games played by each of them. Try and make a convincing case that one is better than the other, then witness my amazing ability to make minor quips in the other direction (even if I don't necessarily believe it myself) that will keep you arguing in circles for 2 hours. It's piss easy to play devil's advocate unless you're comparing David Bellion to Fat Ronaldo, the amount of matches I've seen has no baring on my decision not to try and "prove" it, my love of not spending hours on the internet trying to convince people of something they already know on the other hand, does.

And Spoony provides and excellent case point of someone who already knows, just wants to play devils advocate. Tell you what Spoony, you provide a convincing argument for the Tevez/RvN case that doesn't have me taking the mick dragging you in pointless circles for 2 hours and I'll have a go the other way.
 
Fortitude said:
In modern times, or overall?

In terms of a career we probably have to take into account that the likes of Baresi, Nesta, Beckenbauer and Maldini were immaculate from start to finish whilst Rio really came into his own after 25. That'd mark him down a bit in the grand scheme. In terms of peaks in the modern game, however, I think only Nesta in his pomp was above Ferdinand.
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Overall, I guess. But your list is a good one.


Brwned said:
It is pretty hard to make an argument for a player you've only seen in a few international games, that's true.
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Yep.
 
Moore's a bit of a sacred cow, he played well for England but lacked pace and was often not very interested and a bit crap for West Ham. Ferdinand is easily better IMO.
 
You want proof that Moore is better than Ferdinand? peterstorey thinks otherwise... Nobody will ever put up a more convincing argument than that.
 
Dion said:
And there it is.

You have an opinion on which is the better player, Tevez or Ruud van Nistlerooy I assume. I also assume you've seen well over 100 games played by each of them. Try and make a convincing case that one is better than the other, then witness my amazing ability to make minor quips in the other direction (even if I don't necessarily believe it myself) that will keep you arguing in circles for 2 hours. It's piss easy to play devil's advocate unless you're comparing David Bellion to Fat Ronaldo, the amount of matches I've seen has no baring on my decision not to try and "prove" it, my love of not spending hours on the internet trying to convince people of something they already know on the other hand, does.

And Spoony provides and excellent case point of someone who already knows, just wants to play devils advocate. Tell you what Spoony, you provide a convincing argument for the Tevez/RvN case that doesn't have me taking the mick dragging you in pointless circles for 2 hours and I'll have a go the other way.
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Basically not only have you mentioned players you haven't seen play....but you can read minds.

I'd love to know why Moore's better than Rio.
 
peterstorey said:
Moore's a bit of a sacred cow, he played well for England but lacked pace and was often not very interested and a bit crap for West Ham. Ferdinand is easily better IMO.
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I think he's rated higher on these shores because of 66. Surely his lack of pace would've caught him out in the modern game.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
Basically not only have you mentioned players you haven't seen play....but you can read minds.

I'd love to know why Moore's better than Rio.
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a) I've seen Moore play, I've seen him play more matches than I have David Luiz and I can safely say Luiz is better than Titus Bramble

b) I'd love to know who you think is better between Carlos Tevez and Ruud van Nistlerooy and why, or hell, I'd even love to know who you think is better between Moore and Ferdinand and why, Maradona and Messi, Wes Brown and bloody John O'Shea, you get the idea. All of them are at least half as relevant to a Ferdinand vs Vidic thread.
 
Dion said:
You want proof that Moore is better than Ferdinand? peterstorey thinks otherwise... Nobody will ever put up a more convincing argument than that.
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Haven't you just jumped into this thread and acted like a raving lunatic, or am I imagining that?

Pointlessly defensive position with insults flying left, right and centre.
 
Dion said:
a) I've seen Moore play, I've seen him play more matches than I have David Luiz and I can safely say Luiz is better than Titus Bramble

I'd love to know who you think is better between Carlos Tevez and Ruud van Nistlerooy and why, or hell, I'd even love to know who you think is better between Moore and Ferdinand and why, Maradona and Messi, Wes Brown and bloody John O'Shea, you get the idea.
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Hang on... you've claimed Moore was better than Rio. I've not compared any players in this thread. Instead of answering with a flipping question, how about you support your claim? It's not difficult to do.

I'll ask again, how was Moore better than Rio? Again, I'm curious because I never saw Moore play. What made him so much better?
 
Fortitude said:
Haven't you just jumped into this thread and acted like a raving lunatic, or am I imagining that?

Pointlessly defensive position with insults flying left, right and centre.
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No, no I haven't. I think my first post was voting for Rio, my second suggesting that Rio wasn't "miles" ahead of Vidic then one saying Rio wasn't "one of the greatest of all time". Then after some back and forth I was asked to name 10 players I considered better than Ferdinand (which I did, out of bordum as a casual aside) and this march of the pedantics kicked off.

Ok then Spoony, I'll pm you my reasons for thinking Moore was better than Ferdinand, that way you get your curiosity sated and I get to avoid anyone who stumbles into the thread picking pointless trivialities at it like has happened with my list of 10 players, if you have any major disagreements with it I'll be happy to talk about it at greater length. Is that acceptable to you?
 
Fortitude said:
OK, well over the last, let's say 20 years:

1. Nesta
2. Baresi
3. Maldini
4. Kohler
5. Desailly
6. Rio
7. Sammer
8. Campbell
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Not a bad list, but Campbell...I always thought his passing was woeful, was he better than say Stam? Both pretty similar.
 
Spoony Youngblood said:
Not a bad list, but Campbell...I always thought his passing was woeful, was he better than say Stam? Both pretty similar.
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He was immense 1vs1 before giving the ball to someone else to do something with.

Always went up a level in the big games, too.

His performances for England and the fact he got into so many teams of the tournament despite England's earlish departures also spoke volumes.

Stam would've been the next guy on my list.
 
I do agree that Rio is better but I don't think he's 'miles' ahead of Vidic, and I also think a lot here are underrating Vidic.

Rio is one of the greatest defenders of all time, that is true, but remember he didn't start playing to that level really until he was partnered with Vidic, and that is not a coincidence. Vidic allows Rio to get to the level he does because Vidic does all the 'ugly' stuff allowing Rio to just concentrate on the 'classy' defending. That's simplified, but you get the picture.

I strongly believe Rio would not have got to the level he has without Vidic, and that is a clear indication that Vidic is also a really fantastic defender, and although he has not reached the heights of Rio, he is still one of the best in the world and definitely not 'miles' behind Rio.
 
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