Ferdinand or Vidic in their pomp

Dion said:
And there it is.

You have an opinion on which is the better player, Tevez or Ruud van Nistlerooy I assume. I also assume you've seen well over 100 games played by each of them. Try and make a convincing case that one is better than the other, then witness my amazing ability to make minor quips in the other direction (even if I don't necessarily believe it myself) that will keep you arguing in circles for 2 hours. It's piss easy to play devil's advocate unless you're comparing David Bellion to Fat Ronaldo, the amount of matches I've seen has no baring on my decision not to try and "prove" it, my love of not spending hours on the internet trying to convince people of something they already know on the other hand, does.

And Spoony provides and excellent case point of someone who already knows, just wants to play devils advocate. Tell you what Spoony, you provide a convincing argument for the Tevez/RvN case that doesn't have me taking the mick dragging you in pointless circles for 2 hours and I'll have a go the other way.
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I don't disagree but then you don't have to get into a 2 hour long debate if you don't want to, just one post stating why you believe Moore to be better than Ferdinand with a couple of paragraphs on some of the key areas he betters him is hardly a huge task.

You're just as entitled to explain your opinion and leave it at that as you are to not explain your opinion at all. Proving anything subjective to someone else who's already got a firm opinion on the matter is very often impossible but explaining your opinion's very easy most of the time.
 
Fortitude said:
He was immense 1vs1 before giving the ball to someone else to do something with.

Always went up a level in the big games, too.

His performances for England and the fact he got into so many teams of the tournament despite England's earlish departures also spoke volumes.

Stam would've been the next guy on my list.
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On topic/off topic. I'd have Stam above Vidic. He had everything Vidic had....but pace and all. Vidic is fantastic, though, seems like we're almost being negative about him. Anyway, I can remember Blanc making Rio look a nervous wreck.... to be fair, with his lack of pace....he could've done that to Baresi. Has to be said that Vidic has been the perfect foil for Rio. Like Bruce and Pally on steds. Great pairing.
 
MG said:
I do agree that Rio is better but I don't think he's 'miles' ahead of Vidic, and I also think a lot here are underrating Vidic.

Rio is one of the greatest defenders of all time, that is true, but remember he didn't start playing to that level really until he was partnered with Vidic, and that is not a coincidence. Vidic allows Rio to get to the level he does because Vidic does all the 'ugly' stuff allowing Rio to just concentrate on the 'classy' defending. That's simplified, but you get the picture.

I strongly believe Rio would not have got to the level he has without Vidic, and that is a clear indication that Vidic is also a really fantastic defender, and although he has not reached the heights of Rio, he is still one of the best in the world and definitely not 'miles' behind Rio.
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Rio performed, and performs superbly with anyone who can hold their end of the bargain up, though.

He had a spell with Silvestre before Vidic's arrival, where he was immense, same goes with Brown, but true to form, they would always fall apart at some point and that would be that.

Vidic was the first consistent and able partner Rio had, which enabled Rio to get on with his own job rather than babysitting relative incompetents.
 
Fortitude said:
OK, well over the last, let's say 20 years:

1. Nesta
2. Baresi
3. Maldini
4. Kohler
5. Desailly
6. Rio
7. Sammer
8. Campbell
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Lucio?
Hierro?
Augenthaler?


My favorites (the last 20 years) in their prime in no particular order:

Lucio
Baresi
Kohler
Maldini
Rio
Nesta
 
Brwned said:
I don't disagree but then you don't have to get into a 2 hour long debate if you don't want to, just one post stating why you believe Moore to be better than Ferdinand with a couple of paragraphs on some of the key areas he betters him is hardly a huge task.

You're just as entitled to explain your opinion and leave it at that as you are to not explain your opinion at all. Proving anything subjective to someone else who's already got a firm opinion on the matter is very often impossible but explaining your opinion's very easy most of the time.
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I've explained my opinion on the Vidic/Ferdinand matter, which is the thread we were actually in. I'm not willing to post paragraph after paragraph on every one of my 10 selections, why wasn't Ferdinand better than Baresi? He wasn't but it's not exactly an easy thing to clarify. All of this on what was a casual aside to the main thread point. I've said if people are genuinely interested in my opinions on Moore and Ferdinand then I'll pm them my reasons, or if you want to start a new thread, fine. Anything I do say here will be picked over in absolute minute detail and every little choice of wording will become a two page debate on semantics, is Rio's reading of the game "very great" or "very, very great" etc... Look how long this crap has lasted in what was a nothing list, I even offered two replacements if you objected massively. Look how long me saying I'm not going to get into it here has been dragged out, imagine if I'd actually gotten into specifics.
 
We will never be able to replace Ferdinand. He is extraordinary, and we are so lucky to have him.
 
Dion said:
Which year was Rio the best player in the world? Because for the life of me I cant remember him even winning Manchester United's player of the season, never mind the Ballon D'or. I dont think he's ever had a season where he's been Man Utd's best player, never mind the best player in the world.

The media argument is just your way of trying to argue around the point without addressing it. Ferdinand only truly matured into a consistantly world class player when he was partnered by Vidic, that says more than anything about the 'limitations' of Ferdinand's game.


In no particular order, not the best 10 but a mix of the most obvious/stylistically similar/contemporary;
Maldini
Moore
Beckenbauer
Baresi
Passarella
Krol
Costacurta
Desailly
Koeman
Scirea
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Lillian Thuram?
 
Raees said:
Lillian Thuram?
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Maybe, didn't pop into my head at the time, I'd have to think about it. I always favoured him at fullback for some reason, still a cracking central defender at his best.
 
True, not a bad full back but unlike Abidal.. he was an excellent central defender too.
 
if rio didn't get unjustly suspended in 2003/2004 season, we would've won the league.

I remember like it was yesterday when we were at the molineaux that season and he came off, we melted down and the rest of the season we were utter gash at he back.

rio has been one of our top three most important players of this past decade and probably our best centerback ever at the club.
 
A lot of utd fans would say unjustly most others would say he deserved it. I would be in the middle. The ban was too long but was deserved for the rest of that particular season.

I blame Rio for us losing the tile that year, not the FA. From that defeat to Wolves on we turned a 5 point lead into a 3 point deficit within 3 weeks.

I had a horrible feeling the exact same table turning would happen again this season when we lost in Molenieux
 
Dion said:
Maybe, didn't pop into my head at the time, I'd have to think about it. I always favoured him at fullback for some reason, still a cracking central defender at his best.
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Well he did play the bulk of his international career at full-back, largely because of France's depth of quality of centre-half in Desailly and Blanc. Even as a centre-half though he was still good enough to be in the top echelon of the last 20 years.
 
Stam was awesome, BUT I wonder how much of that is down to context. Up until that point he was the best central defender we'd had at United under Ferguson.

Ferdinand is more composed than Vidic and I think is perhaps better positionally too.
 
When Stam played we had a very attacking gung ho philosophy where often the defenders were lining up 1v1 at the back. Stam also didn't have that great a defensive partner.

Stam had it all he would out muscle Alan (all elbows) Shearer and then keep nippy players quiet - watch him in the tournament when we went to Brazil to play after we withdraw from the FA cup.

Wasn't it Cruyff who said Stam was a one man defence.
 
But then came Craig David, can't take Stam seriously after that moment, you could be Beckenbauer for all I care.. but when you get 'bo selecta'd like that..
 
shame we could not get more than 3 years out of stam...even fergei said letting him go was one of the decisions he regret...

as a combo rio-vidic is almost perfect though...stam at his peak could easily replace one of vidic or rio, because he was so good.

we are talking about 3 of the best defenders in recent years and it is a subjective thing who is the better out of the 3...you could pick one and say the player is the better one and you are not right, nor wrong too.
 
ricky-romeo said:
shame we could not get more than 3 years out of stam...even fergei said letting him go was one of the decisions he regret...

as a combo rio-vidic is almost perfect though...stam at his peak could easily replace one of vidic or rio, because he was so good.

we are talking about 3 of the best defenders in recent years and it is a subjective thing who is the better out of the 3...you could pick one and say the player is the better one and you are not right, nor wrong too.
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Go on stick your neck out and choose one :p

But I get your point these are 3 exceptional defenders.
 
Commadus said:
Go on stick your neck out and choose one :p

But I get your point these are 3 exceptional defenders.
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it is too hard mate..

stam was a brick wall, rio is our beckenbauer and vidic is, simply vidic...

i like rio's style, and if i'm a center forward stam is the last defender i want to play against. although for a pure defender i have to go for vidic, just by a 0.0000001 percent. :)
 
SmashedHombre said:
Rio for a point was the best player in the world, and when he wasn't he was amongst the best in the world. In his prime he had absolutely everything. He is one of the greatest of all time
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It was tight between him and Ronaldo that 07/08, but I'd just lean towards Ronaldo. It was close though, and Rio was certainly the second best in the world.

Dion said:
Oh and Mikael Silvestre looked at best competent, and only then at left back, he never looked world class ffs :lol:
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Actually, Silvestre was brilliant for the first half of the season before Rio got suspended. If I remember correctly, most on this forum thought he'd been our best player of the season so far, and up there with Henry as the best in the league.

He fell apart remarkably the instant Rio was taken out of the team and never got close to that level again, but he was brilliant before that.

Dion said:
There was, as good as Ferdinand was that year, Ronaldo scored 42 goals, broke George Best's record from midfield and sweeped all the awards going. He was the best player in the world comfortably that season, only in a thread about Ferdinand would you even get someone trying to argue that.
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Nah, even at the time there were quite a lot of people saying Rio's season was better. I never agreed, but it was definitely close.
 
MG said:
I do agree that Rio is better but I don't think he's 'miles' ahead of Vidic, and I also think a lot here are underrating Vidic.

Rio is one of the greatest defenders of all time, that is true, but remember he didn't start playing to that level really until he was partnered with Vidic, and that is not a coincidence. Vidic allows Rio to get to the level he does because Vidic does all the 'ugly' stuff allowing Rio to just concentrate on the 'classy' defending. That's simplified, but you get the picture.

I strongly believe Rio would not have got to the level he has without Vidic, and that is a clear indication that Vidic is also a really fantastic defender, and although he has not reached the heights of Rio, he is still one of the best in the world and definitely not 'miles' behind Rio.
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You do realise he English transfer was broken twice on Rio before Vidic even started his international career. They are both great defenders, and their partnership is one of the best the game has seen but Rio is clearly a better footballer. He would have been just fine without Vidic as he demonstrated for nearly a decade before they started the partnership.
 
Transfer fees mean little. He was an error prone defender for a long time. And physically often bullied.

Nearly a decade?? :lol:
 
peterstorey said:
Ferdinand is the best CB I've seen in the top flight in England.
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I'm inclined to agree. Better than McGrath, Stam, Buchan, Hansen, Desailly, Moore.

Peter is bang on about Moore. His club career was never as impressive as his England career or as Rio's club career.
 
Gary Neville:

Nemanja Vidic and Jaap Stam would be my central defensive partnership. Vidic is the best I have seen and Jaap was huge for us in the years he was at United.

No,I have changed my mind! I am going to go for Vidic and Rio Ferdinand.

They are the best partnership I have seen in United shirts.

Gary Neville's all-time best Manchester United XI | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk
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It's an interesting comment from somebody who knows the 2 players better than most people in the world having played alongside them in defence for years.

Very little to separate the 2 from each other imo.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Transfer fees mean little. He was an error prone defender for a long time. And physically often bullied.

Nearly a decade?? :lol:
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He was rock solid for West Ham right from the get go. He was pretty damned good at Leeds as well taking the captaincy in his second season, and he was only 23.

I said nearly a decade because he was on loan for part of his first season at West Ham but they soon recalled him.
 
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