Fabinho

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Sigma said:
Why is this constantly used against Valencia? It's like just because he is an ex winger he can never be good at any other position :wenger:
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He's prone to brain farts, is 30 and has very little time left to add to his game, he loses concentration at vital moments at times that have proved to be costly ala Sanchez. Think he's our best option there atm but we can do better.
 
Clearly Valencia should be the one replaced before Darmian.

Darmian started last season well, like a lot of players, and then was seemingly VanGalified and repeatedly injured.

Valencia meanwhile has always been a stop gap right back. His positional sense is poor. He's been known to give away more dangerous free kicks in games than the rest of the team combined. He's scared to run with the ball. He can only pass backwards. And his crosses are always ankle breakers.
 
This is all a bit of an exaggeration. Our defense was best in the league last year and we'd do well to replicate that again.
 
Raoul said:
This is all a bit of an exaggeration. Our defense was best in the league last year and we'd do well to replicate that again.
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Only because we had the ball 60-70% of the time. LVG's philosophy is designed to mask poor defending. Whereas Mourinho's systems have always been designed to exploit good defending by soaking up pressure and counter-attacking.
 
Womp said:
He's prone to brain farts, is 30 and has very little time left to add to his game, he loses concentration at vital moments at times that have proved to be costly ala Sanchez. Think he's our best option there atm but we can do better.
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I'll quote Pexbo here:

Pexbo said:
The complaints of Valencia getting caught out of position are so short sighted. People just don't forensically analyse fullbacks at other clubs in the same way. He's probably been to blame for about 3-4 goals over the last couple of seasons due to poor positioning, tracking the wrong player or falling asleep for the offside trap but that's about average for any fullback.

Our right hand side is so much more solid and effective when he is supporting the right winger. He matches any winger for pace and beats the for strength while virtually never losing the ball.

He's a beast and I hope he gets 40+ starts there next season.
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hobbers said:
Clearly Valencia should be one replaced before Darmian.

Darmian started last season well, like a lot of players, and then was seemingly VanGalified and repeatedly injured.

Valencia meanwhile has always been a stop gap right back. His positional sense is poor. He's been known to give away more dangerous free kicks in games than the rest of the team combined. He's scared to run with the ball. He can only pass backwards. And his crosses are always ankle breakers.
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Darmian was good for 3-4 weeks. Thats it.

:lol: What? You are spouting nonsense

(and his positional sense is nowhere near as bad as many think)
 
hobbers said:
Only because we had the ball 60-70% of the time. LVG's philosophy is designed to mask poor defending. Whereas Mourinho's systems have always been designed exploit good defending by soaking up pressure and counter-attacking.
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Mourinho has a pretty good defensive record so I doubt much will change, especially with Shaw back this year.
 
Sigma said:
Darmian was good for 3-4 weeks. Thats it.

:lol: What? You are spouting nonsense

(and his positional sense is nowhere near as bad as many think)
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Like I said, he started well.

Valencia's flaws going forward are undeniable. With Van Gaal's set up last season he had more opportunities to attack and put balls in than any other United player and did feck all with those chances. Winning corners off the first man's shins is all he's good for.

The Mata-Valencia "backpasses for days" combination was by far our most used, most predictable and most ineffective partnership. Not entirely their fault, Van Gaal can take a lot of blame for encouraging it.
 
Sigma said:
Why is this constantly used against Valencia? It's like just because he is an ex winger he can never be good at any other position :wenger:
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It's as if Evra wasn't an ex winger. Ironically Evra like Darmian has been bought from a team using a back 5.
 
hobbers said:
Like I said, he started well.

Valencia's flaws going forward are undeniable. With Van Gaal's set up last season he had more opportunities to attack and put balls in than any other United player and did feck all with those chances. Winning corners off the first man's shins is all he's good for.

The Mata-Valencia "backpasses for days" combination was by far our most used, most predictable and most ineffective partnership. Not entirely their fault, Van Gaal can take a lot of blame for encouraging it.
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BWiLLFl.png


Valencia is not 'shit' at attacking
 
Valencia is good at RB. Until he wanders of somewhere far away from his position and that happens a lot. I think Darmian will come good and its a shame people are already giving up on him. If Fabinho comes Darmian should be a 2nd choice RB.
 
^ I made that picture to try and show that stats aren't everything :lol: His attacking score being so much higher than Alves and Marcelo is insane
 
Attila said:
^ I made that picture to try and show that stats aren't everything :lol: His attacking score being so much higher than Alves and Marcelo is insane
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Of course they don't show everything. But they aren't wrong. They can be misleading in some cases, but again, they aren't wrong.

It's not a coincidence that Valencia constantly comes out favourably to a lot of 'proper' right backs
 
Because he had more time on the ball than virtually every other right back.

Mata back to Valencia. Valencia runs forward 20m. Back to Mata. Rinse and repeat.
 
hobbers said:
Because he had more time on the ball than virtually every other right back.

Mata back to Valencia. Valencia runs forward 20m. Back to Mata. Rinse and repeat.
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Yes, because Munich, Madrid and Barcelona are famous for their inability to keep the ball.
 
Raoul said:
This is all a bit of an exaggeration. Our defense was best in the league last year and we'd do well to replicate that again.
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But was the back 4 great or did the boring, limited attacking play and world class keeper cover cracks?
 
Sigma said:
Why is this constantly used against Valencia? It's like just because he is an ex winger he can never be good at any other position :wenger:
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there are so many fullbacks that are ex wingers and are considered good full backs. Valencia is just a redcafe scapegoat
 
Tiber said:
But was the back 4 great or did the boring, limited attacking play and world class keeper cover cracks?
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Its irrelevant whether or not they are boring or not. They got the job done, so collectively they can't be as bad as some are suggesting. And that's not even factoring in Blind as a makeshift CB and the likes of Blind/Young deputizing at LB. With Shaw back and the addition of Bailly, we will be that much stronger.
 
I remember Fabinho coming on as a sub for Real Madrid under Mourinho and being highly rated and never seen him since. I see people saying about our defensive record last season. For me that had little to do with a great defence though and more to do with the magic of De Gea and also the soul less possesion football and defensive mentality that we had. SMalling aside who was the one player who really improved under Van Gaal for me, once Shaw got injured our defence looked vulnerable for the rest of the season for me.

I had never heard of Darmian before we signed him but was pretty impressed with him the first two months. Then there were a couple of games he got absolutely battered by a couple of pacey players and he looked shot of any confidence at all, he does look like he cant handle pace to me. Valencia has been ok as a right back, though his positioning is pretty awful. Personally bar the one season he has never been that good for us anyway, for a player with such pace he is surprisingly just functional and after that one great season how did he suddenly lose the ability to cross the ball over night?

Saying that do we need a right back for sure this season as both are still adequate and we do have others that can play there as well. I would still rather sign a centre back, defensive midfielder or right winger over a right back this season, though I have no idea how good Fabinho is as only seen him for about 15mins a few years ago.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
That's two threads you've put this in.... any more to come? What are the factors behind the scores? (Especially the attack one).

"There's lies, damned lies ..... and statistics"
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I've put it in too threads because its of relevance to those separate conversations.

OK, I won't use statistics any more:

Valencia is one of the best right backs in the league. End of.

See how little substance that has as an argument?

Valencia used to be a winger so can never be good at anything else.

See how little substance that has as an argument?

Valencia makes so many more mistakes than the average right back.

See how little substance that has as an argument without any stats to back it up?
 
Sigma said:
I'll quote Pexbo here:




Darmian was good for 3-4 weeks. Thats it.

:lol: What? You are spouting nonsense

(and his positional sense is nowhere near as bad as many think)
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Just watch Antonio's goal vs United in the 3-2 game at West Ham. Valencia ran around him and then stood there watching him completely free in the middle of the goal. He does not have the defensive instincts to play the position.

Under Van Gaal he was fine because United defended by keeping the ball. Same with Blind at centre back. If United play a more progressive game where they risk giving the ball away his defensive failings will become more exposed.

He has qualities in the position and can do a job there, especially if chasing the game. He's also a great squad player. But your quoting of stats and saying he's the best full back in the league just makes you come across as deluded.

A top club can't have defenders who are that weak defensively. It can (and has) prove costly at key moments in big games.
 
POF said:
Just watch Antonio's goal vs United in the 3-2 game at West Ham. Valencia ran around him and then stood there watching him completely free in the middle of the goal. He does not have the defensive instincts to play the position.

Under Van Gaal he was fine because United defended by keeping the ball. Same with Blind at centre back. If United play a more progressive game where they risk giving the ball away his defensive failings will become more exposed.

He has qualities in the position and can do a job there, especially if chasing the game. He's also a great squad player. But your quoting of stats and saying he's the best full back in the league just makes you come across as deluded.

A top club can't have defenders who are that weak defensively. It can (and has) prove costly at key moments in big games.
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Do you not understand? You can say this about literally any footballer ever. Even Maldini.

Footballers are humans, not robots



This is the definition of the phrase 'double standards'
 
Sigma said:
I've put it in too threads because its of relevance to those separate conversations.

OK, I won't use statistics any more:

Valencia is one of the best right backs in the league. End of.

See how little substance that has as an argument?

Valencia used to be a winger so can never be good at anything else.

See how little substance that has as an argument?

Valencia makes so many more mistakes than the average right back.

See how little substance that has as an argument without any stats to back it up?
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Wow, bad day? Chill! :)

I haven't said don't use stats or whether I think Valencia's good, bad or indifferent? Try addressing that to someone who has..... it'd make more sense.

You can chuck stats about but in isolation, they don't prove something .... stats like possession, defensive record, pass completion would suggest Leicester should have had a bang average 2015/16? And stats can suggest Valencia is a decent FB..... neither were/are the case.

Fwiw, I think Valencia is 7/10 (max) and Darmian no better (but can maybe improve).
 
Keeps It tidy said:
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OK...

Like I said, footballers are humans, not robots

Players make mistakes, its how consistent these mistakes are. Valencia doesn't make a lot of mistakes. This one, the one against Arsenal, thats all I can really remember.
 
Sigma said:
OK...

Like I said, footballers are humans, not robots

Players make mistakes, its how consistent these mistakes are. Valencia doesn't make a lot of mistakes. This one, the one against Arsenal, thats all I can really remember.
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But, the thing is you get beaten for pace, you get outmuscled, you get beaten in the air that happens that is Football. I feel a mistake like that is unacceptable for a defender on this level. You would expect even an u-18 RB to be able to hold a line.
 
Sigma said:
Do you not understand? You can say this about literally any footballer ever. Even Maldini.

Footballers are humans, not robots



This is the definition of the phrase 'double standards'
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Do you understand? There is a big difference between making a mistake, being beaten by a better opponent and completely lacking defensive instincts.

The Antonio one is just an example but a good one in a recent game that was pivotal in costing the team Champions League football next season. A good defender needs to be able to spot danger. In that example, Valencia circled him and decided to stand in the worst possible spot to defend the only player in his area that was a threat.

That isn't a mistake. It's not knowing how to defend. Show me an example of Maldini doing that.
 
Everything I've heard about him suggests he's not that good offensively. Do not want.
 
Sigma said:
OK...

Like I said, footballers are humans, not robots

Players make mistakes, its how consistent these mistakes are. Valencia doesn't make a lot of mistakes. This one, the one against Arsenal, thats all I can really remember.
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He did the same thing vs Dortmund in the last game when the right winger was wrongly given offside. Surely you remember Everton away in LVG's first season (I think)? Second goal was just a mistake but that third goal . . .
 
Sigma said:
OK...

Like I said, footballers are humans, not robots

Players make mistakes, its how consistent these mistakes are. Valencia doesn't make a lot of mistakes. This one, the one against Arsenal, thats all I can really remember.
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Were you born in Ecuador by any chance? In almost every game we concede goals or great chances because of his positioning. Can't see Valencia keeping Mourinho happy until August 31st. By that time he must have realised the likes of Rojo and Valencia are not up to our standard, if he didn't already against Dortmund..

Fabinho, Darmian and TFM for right back, please!
 
Tiber said:
Darmian is an odd one. I thought he started pretty well until presumably LVG sucked out his soul.

Mourinho might be able to fix him


On the other hand, Evra was an underrated fullback bought from Monaco - that went pretty well
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Yep first year in a new country and new league playing against much more aggressive players but yeah lets go with the LVG excuse.
 
POF said:
Do you understand? There is a big difference between making a mistake, being beaten by a better opponent and completely lacking defensive instincts.

The Antonio one is just an example but a good one in a recent game that was pivotal in costing the team Champions League football next season. A good defender needs to be able to spot danger. In that example, Valencia circled him and decided to stand in the worst possible spot to defend the only player in his area that was a threat.

That isn't a mistake. It's not knowing how to defend. Show me an example of Maldini doing that.
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Sadly for me there is far more content available nowadays and all the videos about Maldini are him being amazing. Which of course he was, but it doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes, because he did.
Seven Seas Sardines said:
You from Ecuador by any chance? In almost every game we concede goals or great chances because of his positioning. Can't see Valencia keeping Mourinho happy until August 31st. By that time he must have realised the likes of Rojo and Valencia are not up to our standard, if he didn't already against Dortmund..

Fabinho, Darmian and TFM for right back, please!
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:lol:

You want TFM as right back? His positional sense is terrible
 
If we get Fabinho, then that's got to be it for Darmian, unless he's Shaw's backup.
 
What has gone on in this thread?

Comparing Valencia to Maldini. Can the resident whoscored expert post Youngs stats as fullback too. I'm sure they will look favourable.
 
Sigma said:
Sadly for me there is far more content available nowadays and all the videos about Maldini are him being amazing. Which of course he was, but it doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes, because he did.


:lol:

You want TFM as right back? His positional sense is terrible
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Of course he made mistakes. But Valencia's errors aren't mistakes. They are a lack of defensive instincts which make them more likely to occur again.

I can see why you construct your arguments around stats. Any goal opportunity caused by poor defending must fall in the "mistake" bucket. You don't seem capable of differentiating one from the other.

This is a Fabinho thread so I will leave it there.
 
Bojan11 said:
What has gone on in this thread?

Comparing Valencia to Maldini. Can the resident whoscored expert post Youngs stats as fullback too. I'm sure they will look favourable.
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The main thing I've taken away from the last couple of pages is that Nobby Styles has competition as the Caf's #1 Valencia fan.
 
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