F1 2024 Season

Mike Smalling said:
Sainz deserves better than Williams. Hope he gets back to a good car relatively soon.

Also, good to see K-Mag get a good result before he departs F1. Haas really cementing that 6th spot in the constructors.
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It's a real shame he isn't in the Mercedes for next season. He deserves it. Besides it would be a good barometer check between him and Russell,

Unfortunately totto is obsessed with antonelli, who I think is far too young to be in a top team in F1. You can see it with Piastri, there are mistakes, but they are highlighted so much more as he drives for McLaren.
 
Buster15 said:
Is F1 really a dying sport?
Wonder what data there is to back that up.
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The on track side of it has been slowly dying for a long time. Now the environmental push is speeding up that decline by ruining tyres and engines.

The controversy/social media side peaked in 2021. D2S viewing figures falling since then. Apparently season 6 viewing figures were down 30% from season 5, which sounds massive. The american bubble has burst.

That's why there's such a push for a track in Africa and street circuits in places like Seoul.
 
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slyadams said:
Hard to tell because Lewis hasn’t had a competitive car for so long. However, an 80% Hamilton deals with Leclerc.

I also wonder who Ferrari will ultimately favour. Leclerc was the golden boy but he hasn’t lived up to the hype. The story of Hamilton winning the record 8th (9th*) title crossing the line in the red car AND reclaiming the glory from Merc makes me believe Hamilton would be strongly favoured.
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It will be very interesting to see the racing between Hamilton and Leclerc. Obviously the fairytale would be for lewis to get no 8 in a Ferrari. Personally I think he would retire at that point and not be around for 2026. However as Hamiltons race engineer said these regs don't suit Hamilton driving style so it could Leclerc who emerges victorious.

Ominously for the rest of the gird, the Ferraris are looking good, this is despite the knowledgeable that they are leaving down force on the table as the rear suspension in its current setup (pull rod) cannot cope with more downforce and they will be switching to push rod for 2025, as currently run by most of the grid.
 
Buster15 said:
Is F1 really a dying sport?
Wonder what data there is to back that up.
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It's absolutely not, I don't have any data to hand but it's widely known that since Liberty Media became involved & Drive To Survive became popular that F1 has soared in popularity.
 
hobbers said:
The on track side of it has been slowly dying for a long time. Now the environmental push is speeding up that decline by ruining tyres and engines.

The controversy/social media side peaked in 2021. D2S viewing figures falling since then. Apparently season 6 viewing figures were down 30% from season 5, which sounds massive. The american bubble has burst.

That's why there's such a push for a track in Africa and street circuits in places like Seoul.
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You make a valid point about the phasing out of fossil fueled engines.

But the number of F1 races each year has been steadily increasing. And that is most likely the reason behind the push to have a race in the African continent.

And I heard that the number of spectators watching F1 has also been increasing.

I do agree with you that for some bizarre reason, fans thrive on controversy. Although for me, I am more interested in the technology as well as the racing.
 
Rodgerzzz said:
It's absolutely not, I don't have any data to hand but it's widely known that since Liberty Media became involved & Drive To Survive became popular that F1 has soared in popularity.
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Thank was what I thought, although I too have to admit that I don't have the data to support that.
 
Buster15 said:
Thank was what I thought, although I too have to admit that I don't have the data to support that.
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A couple of quick examples are the enormous increase in team valuations (even back marker teams are worth crazy money now) & also Liberty buying MotoGP trying to replicate the success they've had with F1, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't have bothered if they hadn't made a huge success of their F1 ownership.
 
It's a commercial juggernaut because of post-covid expansion and netflix, but the declining spectacle of the races will have a big impact. A huge chunk of revenue last year was just from the novelty of Vegas. The novelty will wear off, especially if the 2026 cars are as horrible to drive and race as a lot of teams are fearing.

The expansion model seems to be get a flashy new street race at least every 2 years to keep pumping in new money.
 
hobbers said:
It's a commercial juggernaut because of post-covid expansion and netflix, but the declining spectacle of the races will have a big impact. A huge chunk of revenue last year was just from the novelty of Vegas. The novelty will wear off, especially if the 2026 cars are as horrible to drive and race as a lot of teams are fearing.

The expansion model seems to be get a flashy new street race at least every 2 years to keep pumping in new money.
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Regarding the declining spectacle of the races.
That is what the sport should be about. And I have to say that this year, we have seen a number of close exciting races, with no one team or driver dominating as before.
 
Sigh. Back to the classic generalisation of everyone on this forum disliking Max because he isn’t British. There’s something quite ironic about that.

Also funny how Sky favouring British drivers somehow means all of us must be the same.
 
Buster15 said:
I do agree with you that for some bizarre reason, fans thrive on controversy.
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It's hardly bizarre is it? Something happens that people talk about, controversy creates cash. Nobody is gonna talk about a race where nothing happens.
 
Buster15 said:
Is F1 really a dying sport?
Wonder what data there is to back that up.
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No, financially it's never been better and the profit they're posting is impressive. It's the first time in a long time that teams are becoming profitable as well, so nothing is dying. I think also 2021 was a bit of a outlier in terms of awareness and popularity, given everyone was sat at home. It is certainly not sustainable or even going to be replicated anywhere in the future given the unique conditions.

It's important not to get the above mixed up with the quality of the racing. When the regulations are settled over a 2-3 year period then the closeness of racing improves. Changes in 2026 will change the pack again and the racing probably won't see much improvement tbh. I said for years that the 2022 regulations haven't improved racing, bearing in mind that it was designed to get cars running closer together and I think these specific regulations have failed in that objective.
 
I missed this. Verstappen and Colapinto both given two penalty points each on their super licence for their incidents with Norris and Lawson.
 
Looking back at footage again now, that 10 second penalty for turn 4 was genuinely obscene.

Obviously it's similar to Austin in that Norris did the same as Max and released the brakes to be ahead at the apex, but because he's on the outside he was never making that corner even if Max's car vanished into another dimension. Max had nowhere to go and no other driver on the planet would have backed out in that situation.

But regardless of all of that, Lando cuts across the grass and gets ahead anyway, so even if you think Max did something dubious going into the corner, he doesnt get any advantage out of it. You'd have to be as deranged as Herbert to give any penalty for that let alone 10 seconds.
 
Buster15 said:
Is F1 really a dying sport?
Wonder what data there is to back that up.
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Depends on one's definition of sport, doesn't it? To those to who consider WWE a sport it remains a thriving sport.

(And I'm not talking about the age old argument whether driving a car is a sport)
 
Abizzz said:
Depends on one's definition of sport, doesn't it? To those to who consider WWE a sport it remains a thriving sport.

(And I'm not talking about the age old argument whether driving a car is a sport)
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Thank you for this. And just to be clear, someone else posted that F1 was a dying sport.
I responded to that asking whether that was correct.
 
hobbers said:
Looking back at footage again now, that 10 second penalty for turn 4 was genuinely obscene.

Obviously it's similar to Austin in that Norris did the same as Max and released the brakes to be ahead at the apex, but because he's on the outside he was never making that corner even if Max's car vanished into another dimension. Max had nowhere to go and no other driver on the planet would have backed out in that situation.

But regardless of all of that, Lando cuts across the grass and gets ahead anyway, so even if you think Max did something dubious going into the corner, he doesnt get any advantage out of it. You'd have to be as deranged as Herbert to give any penalty for that let alone 10 seconds.
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Verstappen had plenty of room on the left hand side of the exit of turn 4, his steering wheel wasn't even on full lock which is was at turn 5 which would intimate that a driver of his calibre either judged the corner extremely poorly or was tactically pushing Norris off the track - I think most know that Verstappen has the steering sensitivity set very high to ensure he can turn the car with little effort.

The new onboards which Sky published this morning only adds weight to the decision from the stewards. Norris was deemed to be ahead of Verstappen in every stage of the corner by the stewards and if given the correct space he would have made the corner no problem. All this despite Horners best attempts of artwork to insinuate that an F1 car with 15kph additional speed can't stop on a six pence.


dinostar77 said:
I missed this. Verstappen and Colapinto both given two penalty points each on their super licence for their incidents with Norris and Lawson.
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Verstappen's looks to be solely on the turn 4 incident - https://www.fia.com/sites/default/f...g another driver of the track (corrected).pdf

I'm surprised they've done nothing with the turn 8 incident, which was more dangerous.
 
F-Red said:
The new onboards which Sky published this morning only adds weight to the decision from the stewards. Norris was deemed to be ahead of Verstappen in every stage of the corner by the stewards and if given the correct space he would have made the corner no problem. All this despite Horners best attempts of artwork to insinuate that an F1 car with 15kph additional speed can't stop on a six pence.
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Nope. No driver on the gird would have positioned their car differently to Max in that situation, and he is the only one who would have taken a penalty for that. End of. And it's not even relevant because Lando still gained the position from the move, so there was no precedent for a 10 second penalty.

Turn 7 was its own thing but turn 4 is no different to about a dozen other incidents that weren't penalised. Obvious examples when Perez dive bombed Lawson off in the chicane and at the next corner Lawson forced Perez off despite being over half a car length behind at the apex.
 
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hobbers said:
Nope. No driver on the gird would have positioned their car differently to Max in that situation, and he is the only one who would have taken a penalty for that. End of. And it's not even relevant because Lando still gained the position from the move, so there was no precedent for a 10 second penalty.
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The judgement from the stewards was that Norris was ahead and would have been ahead of Verstappen had Verstappen actually turned his steering wheel to make the corner and given space, which is judged he didn't - there was no understeer from the onboards, he looked to be in control of the car. Unsurprisingly that telemetry data would have been available to Horner but he's chose not to bring that to the discussion.

The position Norris gained from leaving the track was getting ahead of Sainz, which he gave back, there was no other rule that Norris broke. The precedent on any time penalty is simply down to the FIA (not F1 specific) sporting code due to Verstappen forcing another car off the track. Austria this year is enough of a precedent and similar 10 second penalties for breaches of the sporting code happened in F3's feature race in Spa.
 
F-Red said:
The judgement from the stewards was that Norris was ahead and would have been ahead of Verstappen had Verstappen actually turned his steering wheel to make the corner and given space, which is judged he didn't - there was no understeer from the onboards, he looked to be in control of the car. Unsurprisingly that telemetry data would have been available to Horner but he's chose not to bring that to the discussion.

The position Norris gained from leaving the track was getting ahead of Sainz, which he gave back, there was no other rule that Norris broke. The precedent on any time penalty is simply down to the FIA (not F1 specific) sporting code due to Verstappen forcing another car off the track. Austria this year is enough of a precedent and similar 10 second penalties for breaches of the sporting code happened in F3's feature race in Spa.
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Last I'm saying on this.. Norris kept the position he gained during the corner, so he was not disadvantaged by anything that happened in the corner. It's unprecedented to give a 10 second penalty to a driver who hasn't caused a material (track position/damage) disadvantage to the other party.

I dont care about telemetries or steering lock, it's obvious from both onboards no other driver would have submitted from the track position Max was in, not in a million years. And all the ones who didnt submit in these situations later in the race, like the 2 I mentioned, did not get penalties. Even when they gained positions and caused damage.
 
hobbers said:
Last I'm saying on this.. Norris kept the position he gained during the corner, so he was not disadvantaged by anything that happened in the corner. It's unprecedented to give a 10 second penalty to a driver who hasn't caused a material (track position/damage) disadvantage to the other party.

I dont care about telemetries or steering lock, it's obvious from both onboards no other driver would have submitted from the track position Max was in, not in a million years. And all the ones who didnt submit in these situations later in the race, like the 2 I mentioned, did not get penalties. Even when they gained positions and caused damage.
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If I'm reading between the lines correctly - the double penalty can be interpreted to having been applied as a way to make a statement - punitive damages if you will - rather than for legitimate reasons. If so, then I guess that's probably what Horner was referring to when it came to questioning the full amount of penalties. Neither her nor Max seemed to deny he deserves some type of penalty - just not both. Is that what you are implying as well?
 
Redplane said:
If I'm reading between the lines correctly - the double penalty can be interpreted to having been applied as a way to make a statement - punitive damages if you will - rather than for legitimate reasons. If so, then I guess that's probably what Horner was referring to when it came to questioning the full amount of penalties. Neither her nor Max seemed to deny he deserves some type of penalty - just not both. Is that what you are implying as well?
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One 10 second penalty was fair. Getting both was ridiculous in my opinion.
 
Redplane said:
If I'm reading between the lines correctly - the double penalty can be interpreted to having been applied as a way to make a statement - punitive damages if you will - rather than for legitimate reasons. If so, then I guess that's probably what Horner was referring to when it came to questioning the full amount of penalties. Neither her nor Max seemed to deny he deserves some type of penalty - just not both. Is that what you are implying as well?
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Yes Max was penalised twice despite only gaining an advantage once. And since no other driver got a penalty for forcing cars off track, despite several doing so and gaining advantages from it, the only conclusion is that penalty was to punish the driver for being who he is rather than for his driving.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
One 10 second penalty was fair. Getting both was ridiculous in my opinion.
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hobbers said:
Yes Max was penalised twice despite only gaining an advantage once. And since no other driver got a penalty for forcing cars off track, despite several doing so and gaining advantages from it, the only conclusion is that penalty was to punish the driver for being who he is rather than for his driving.
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Yeah I definitely had my question marks over that as well. I hope RB uses it's right to review and its granted. Even as a Max fan I dont excuse him for all his driving that day but the double penalty was odd. Even if it would have been 10 and 5 it would have made a bit more sense.

Glad there is another race already in a way though - imagine if we had a long break - we d have to see headlines about this for a while yet. Guess now the new thing is whether Checo will be dropped before Brazil after his dad's cryptic tweet.
 
Redplane said:
Yeah I definitely had my question marks over that as well. I hope RB uses it's right to review and its granted. Even as a Max fan I dont excuse him for all his driving that day but the double penalty was odd. Even if it would have been 10 and 5 it would have made a bit more sense.

Glad there is another race already in a way though - imagine if we had a long break - we d have to see headlines about this for a while yet. Guess now the new thing is whether Checo will be dropped before Brazil after his dad's cryptic tweet.
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Not sure but I think Horner has already said they won't fight it. Don't think there is much of a chance of them getting anything from it because they would need to bring new evidence that wasn't available when the penalty was dished out I believe. What could that possibly be? Is others not getting penalized for the same thing new evidence?
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Not sure but I think Horner has already said they won't fight it. Don't think there is much of a chance of them getting anything from it because they would need to bring new evidence that wasn't available when the penalty was dished out I believe. What could that possibly be? Is others not getting penalized for the same thing new evidence?
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They wouldnt gain anything anyway, Max finished 11s behind Russell.

Be better off doing what Toto did in Austin and dropping some conspiracy theories. Get it firmly in the public domain that having heavily partisan tv pundits stewarding races is terrible optics. Imagine the furore if a Dutch Viaplay pundit started volunteering, and Norris 'coincidentally' was handed unprecedented penalties whenever he was stewarding.
 
hobbers said:
Nope. No driver on the gird would have positioned their car differently to Max in that situation, and he is the only one who would have taken a penalty for that. End of. And it's not even relevant because Lando still gained the position from the move, so there was no precedent for a 10 second penalty.

Turn 7 was its own thing but turn 4 is no different to about a dozen other incidents that weren't penalised. Obvious examples when Perez dive bombed Lawson off in the chicane and at the next corner Lawson forced Perez off despite being over half a car length behind at the apex.
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Well that settles it....
 
hobbers said:
They wouldnt gain anything anyway, Max finished 11s behind Russell.

Be better off doing what Toto did in Austin and dropping some conspiracy theories. Get it firmly in the public domain that having heavily partisan tv pundits stewarding races is terrible optics. Imagine the furore if a Dutch Viaplay pundit started volunteering, and Norris 'coincidentally' was handed unprecedented penalties whenever he was stewarding.
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Based on Herbert's comments in the press now the conspiracy theories are supporting themselves. Man should be removed from his position. Even the majority of Reddit and fans of other drivers and teams there seem to be in alignment on that.
 
Redplane said:
Based on Herbert's comments in the press now the conspiracy theories are supporting themselves. Man should be removed from his position. Even the majority of Reddit and fans of other drivers and teams there seem to be in alignment on that.
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It's literal insanity to have that mix of steward volunteers with pre established giant conflicts of interest.

What would lulu fans have said and done if they found out 2021 races had Mark Mateschitz and a Dutch F1 pundit on the steward team :lol:

Even just the optics of Herbert being allowed to address his own decisions in the media is absurd. No other sport has referees attention whoring after contentious decisions.
 
Difficult to not find some conflict of interest but as ever it seems anything British is strongly disliked with all kinds of rhetoric thrown in. I've come across this in F1 a lot on forums and by drivers like Rosberg. Nothing is mentioned if an Italian, Spaniard, Swiss, and French are the stewards or lets say the Spanish press are partisan or the coverage is supportive of Spanish drivers and attacking other drivers. Brits on the panel, hang on a minute, vague association with a British team, hang on.

What if an Italian steward has some connection with Ferrari, he can't be on the panel too or what if he rules in favour of an Italian driver and so on. It's quite a demanding role and Herbert has been doing it for a long time, I doubt the expertise and time demands go well with peoples lives and careers, and it would be very difficult to find a group for each race that is neutral with so many nationalities and multiple jobs people have had in the motor industry. No Dutch, no Austrians, No brits, no-one that has work or have an association with a company within the industry, where does it end?
 
redshaw said:
Difficult to not find some conflict of interest but as ever it seems anything British is strongly disliked with all kinds of rhetoric thrown in. I've come across this in F1 a lot on forums and by drivers like Rosberg. Nothing is mentioned if an Italian, Spaniard, Swiss, and French are the stewards or lets say the Spanish press are partisan or the coverage is supportive of Spanish drivers and attacking other drivers. Brits on the panel, hang on a minute, vague association with a British team, hang on.

What if an Italian steward has some connection with Ferrari, he can't be on the panel too or what if he rules in favour of an Italian driver and so on. It's quite a demanding role and Herbert has been doing it for a long time, I doubt the expertise and time demands go well with peoples lives and careers, and it would be very difficult to find a group for each race that is neutral with so many nationalities and multiple jobs people have had in the motor industry. No Dutch, no Austrians, No brits, no-one that has work or have an association with a company within the industry, where does it end?
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unfortunately, as a nation, we produce great engineers and drivers. that breeds a lot of resentment when other nations have to cheat to try and get close to us.
 
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