F1 2022 Season

[dinostar77]

If they cant fix the car this season it's pretty ominous for them next season, even more so given budget caps and the time being locked on this years development, at least for now.

And he's not going to stay to be second driver in the third fastest car.

The cars will remain pretty much the same for next few years. Also the sliding rule for CFD and wind tunnel time means that Mercedes will have more of both next season than ferrari and RB will. They will be give more time on both halfway through this season as it presently stands.

Mercedes have said themselves that they havent reached the point where they can say that they have reached a fundamental flaw in this years car design and that they have to re-baseline again. As bad as an outcome that would be it would still be an answer they dont have at present and would allow them to shift to a different approach in design.

Theres a fundamental misunderstanding on here of the Mercedes car, that its a dog or a bad car. Its not. The excessive porposing created by the downforce the car is generating is as everyone knows the main culprit. To remediate it as much as possible, the ride height of the rear of the car is raised. This in turn makes the car more draggy and slower. The porposing also reduces the contact patch of the tyres to the ground and makes it more difficult for Mercedes to get the tyres upto optimum temperature. Hence they are going for two warmup laps in qualifying. Also Mercedes are getting porposing into all types of corners and therefore this reduces the confidence of the drivers that the car will do what you ask of it. The porposing also means they can work on dialling in the car for each track and finetuning the setup. The porposing is a horrendous domino effect.

Now what happens if they elimate porposing all together? The car can run as low to the groumd as needed to get the full benefit of ground effect. Mercedes can run a less draggy rear wing as the car is generating a helluva lot of downforce already. The tyres will heat up quicker as the downforce is pushing the car into the ground and increasing the contact patch to the ground and more importantly ensuring a consistent contact patch. This all in turns makes the car quicker. The drivers have more confidence they can drive as they want and the car will comply. Now Mercedes can work on fine tuning the setup for each track and start working on the marginal gains that give you 0.10 of a second extra per lap etc.

Until porposing is resolved, they still have even now, the same Mercedes car as they did in tje 2nd test at bahrain.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

History won't remember the daft end of last season, it'll remember him being the best F1 driver of all time. When he stops isn't going to change anything. Ted is talking shite.

Let's be honest, he often does.

 

[dinostar77]

On a seperate point, i know we havent heard anything nor do i expect to, but i wonder if the porposing has kicked off a new battle for next gen CFD and wind tunnels that can incorporate porposing into their designs somehow.

Wouldnt suprise me if the top teams have already reached out to the aircraft industry to find out how they CFD or use wind tunnels to workout how prevent stall in the airflow occuring for their aircraft. Porposing is the airflow stalling for the f1 cars, so there are simlarities/synergies between the two.

 

[Buster15]

The cars will remain pretty much the same for next few years. Also the sliding rule for CFD and wind tunnel time means that Mercedes will have more of both next season than ferrari and RB will. They will be give more time on both halfway through this season as it presently stands.

Mercedes have said themselves that they havent reached the point where they can say that they have reached a fundamental flaw in this years car design and that they have to re-baseline again. As bad as an outcome that would be it would still be an answer they dont have at present and would allow them to shift to a different approach in design.

Theres a fundamental misunderstanding on here of the Mercedes car, that its a dog or a bad car. Its not. The excessive porposing created by the downforce the car is generating is as everyone knows the main culprit. To remediate it as much as possible, the ride height of the rear of the car is raised. This in turn makes the car more draggy and slower. The porposing also reduces the contact patch of the tyres to the ground and makes it more difficult for Mercedes to get the tyres upto optimum temperature. Hence they are going for two warmup laps in qualifying. Also Mercedes are getting porposing into all types of corners and therefore this reduces the confidence of the drivers that the car will do what you ask of it. The porposing also means they can work on dialling in the car for each track and finetuning the setup. The porposing is a horrendous domino effect.

Now what happens if they elimate porposing all together? The car can run as low to the groumd as needed to get the full benefit of ground effect. Mercedes can run a less draggy rear wing as the car is generating a helluva lot of downforce already. The tyres will heat up quicker as the downforce is pushing the car into the ground and increasing the contact patch to the ground and more importantly ensuring a consistent contact patch. This all in turns makes the car quicker. The drivers have more confidence they can drive as they want and the car will comply. Now Mercedes can work on fine tuning the setup for each track and start working on the marginal gains that give you 0.10 of a second extra per lap etc.

Until porposing is resolved, they still have even now, the same Mercedes car as they did in tje 2nd test at bahrain.

The way I understand ground effect is that as the air under the floor accelerates, it drops in pressure. Thus increasing downforce. But when the underside of the car gets too close to the track, that ground effect breaks down and the car rises up. And this then repeats and repeats resulting in the bouncing or porpoising.

So is it not an indication that the mercedes is generating too high levels of ground effect.

 

[Zarlak]

The way I understand ground effect is that as the air under the floor accelerates, it drops in pressure. Thus increasing downforce. But when the underside of the car gets too close to the track, that ground effect breaks down and the car rises up. And this then repeats and repeats resulting in the bouncing or porpoising.

So is it not an indication that the mercedes is generating too high levels of ground effect.

The porpoising is so extreme precisely because the Mercedes has so much downforce, the second it raises off the track it sucks back down again and the process just keeps repeating itself.

 

[mariachi-19]

The older you get and the more you've already fought, the less interest you have of fighting to get back to the top if things go wrong.

Hamilton will retire soon, because he's already been through the fight and he won't be arsed with a crap car. Doesn't make him a bad driver, doesn't make Russell (a man who's achieved nothing) a better driver. It's just life. If Mercedes sort the car out this season he'll probably stick around, if they don't he'll doubtless go try something else.

Hamilton is in the same place Schumacher was in 2005 - the difference now is that there’s not the same scope for the driver to put the km’s in the test mule like Schumacher did in the winter or 05/06 (that man did some fecking work to get that Ferrari competitive).

That probably ended Schumachers Ferrari career 2 years earlier than it should have (he’d have comfortably won the 2007 title imo).

Lewis needs to work out whether he wants to put the mental investment into it or is it too much of a risk. Different when you know you won’t win to having title aspirations.

 

[RoyH1]

That's just formula 1 for you. Pretty much every champion in history since the 80's have won the championship in the best car. Even back in Schumachers day yes sometimes he had competition, on other days he'd win the race by a minute.

Back in the 80/90s you could perhaps outdrive the car more easily, but these days everything is so finely tuned the car is king. Nobody is winning the championship in a Williams.

Sometimes luck comes into it too. For instance, Pastor Maldonado has won a race. Neither Norris or Russell have when they are clearly much better quality drivers. Does that make Maldonado better?

What Hamilton has had is huge determination and consistency, and thrives under pressure while others wilt.

As we've seen with Carlos Sainz you can be a very talented driver but sometimes the pressure gets to you and you start making unusual mistakes.

That has to be one of the strangest occurrences ever in sports history. That man could match Latifi in the collision department.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

The way I understand ground effect is that as the air under the floor accelerates, it drops in pressure. Thus increasing downforce. But when the underside of the car gets too close to the track, that ground effect breaks down and the car rises up. And this then repeats and repeats resulting in the bouncing or porpoising.

So is it not an indication that the mercedes is generating too high levels of ground effect.

This is my understanding also, so if Mercedes can get the pressure to stay constant they they will have a car that sticks to the ground and be competitive or am I being to simple ?

 

[dinostar77]

The porpoising is so extreme precisely because the Mercedes has so much downforce, the second it raises off the track it sucks back down again and the process just keeps repeating itself.

Yep exactly that, it was mentioned in a article on The Race website. Apparently its why Mercedes are sticking with the slim air vents design approach. The amount of downforce generated is huge, but before they can exploit that they need to fix the porposing.

 

[Adam-Utd]

That has to be one of the strangest occurrences ever in sports history. That man could match Latifi in the collision department.

I think it just shows anybody with enough talent to reach f1 can win races in the right car.

That weekend the Williams just worked. He got 2nd place in qualifying and managed to stick with Alonso the whole race, then overtook him in the pit stops and stayed ahead until the end.

If Maldonado in a williams can beat Alonso (who many think is one of the most naturally talented on the grid) in a strong ferrari, that kind of shows that the car really is king in F1.

 

[The Firestarter]

First it was sandbagging, now its the too big of a downforce. It's quite amusing, I dont think even Merc know what is their problem precisely.

 

[Buster15]

This is my understanding also, so if Mercedes can get the pressure to stay constant they they will have a car that sticks to the ground and be competitive or am I being to simple ?

In principle yes. But as you will appreciate, there are so many variables which are almost impossible to model.
The airflow under the floor needs to be kept flowing in order for it to accelerate and drop in pressure. If for any reason that level of acceleration slows, it will either increase in pressure or stall; just like a wing. And when that happens, the level of drag will increase substantially.
Mercedes are paying the price of a too aggressive strategy. But I am convinced they are learning how to overcome it and will become competitive.

 

[dinostar77]

This is my understanding also, so if Mercedes can get the pressure to stay constant they they will have a car that sticks to the ground and be competitive or am I being to simple ?

The solution for the problem has to be either one of two things:

1. A change to the suspension setup ala the RedBull design, which from what little i have read online suggests it would take the best part of the entire season to copy. Though i expect the entire grid to copy the RB suspension setup for next season.

2. A change to the floor:

2.1 Make the floor more rigid ala alpine so it flex less and find weight reduction elsewhere to account for the heavier floor.

2.2 Change the edges of the floor where the mini vortices are generated and the outwash is pushed. Problem is that you cant use CFD or wind tunnel to help you with the airflow modelling as it doesnt account for the porposing.

2.3 Changes to the underneath of the floor where the venturi tunnels are generated. Again like point 2.2, cant correlate the data with the porposing.

Or 3, get to a stage where you can say with 95% certainty that there is a fundamental flaw in the design that cant be fixed within the rulebook and start from scratch and use either the Ferrari or RB approach as your way forward.

Regardless it all sounds very hard to fix. Personally as a armchair fan, i think they are right to continue down the approach they are going, if they resolve the porposing and this 'unbelievable' amount of downforce in the simulations correlates with whats being generated on track then Mercedes will have a formidable car on their hands.

 

[Buster15]

First it was sandbagging, now its the too big of a downforce. It's quite amusing, I dont think even Merc know what is their problem precisely.

Don't remember Mercedes sandbagging. It was the other teams. But they are clearly struggling with resources due to the budget cap. That is hurting them.

 

[mitChley]

Personally as a armchair fan, i think they are right to continue down the approach they are going, if they resolve the porposing and this 'unbelievable' amount of downforce in the simulations correlates with whats being generated on track then Mercedes will have a formidable car on their hands.

It's also more interesting when there are teams with multiple concepts instead of all just ending up with one very similar approach.

 

[dinostar77]

Planet F1 article, quoting Andrew Shovlin (Mercedes trackside engineering director)

Mercedes don’t know if the W13 is ‘fast or not’
Date published: April 4 2022 - Michelle Foster on Planet F1 website.

Andrew Shovlin says such is Mercedes’ porpoising problem that the team has no idea if their W13 is actually a fast car or not.
Adopting ground effect aerodynamics this season, almost all of the teams have suffered with porpoising to some degree.

Porpoising is the result of downforce pushing the car down onto the track which causes the underfloor aero to stall, and as that happens the car rises off from the track leading to the underfloor aero kicking in. The car is then pushed back into the ground and so it continues.

That leads to a bouncing motion along the straight with the Mercedes W13 seemingly suffering more than its rivals.

So much so that Shovlin, Mercedes’ head of trackside engineering, says they don’t know if they have a good car in the W13 or not, and they are unlikely to know until they fix the bouncing.

He told Motorsport.com: “That’s probably priority number one because that’s ultimately preventing us from running the car where we’d like to run it for optimum performance.

“What we don’t know is, if we could just magically make that issue vanish, where would we actually be in terms of car pace: is the car fast enough or not? And it’s very difficult to answer that question.”

Mercedes have had to raise the ride-height of the car to limit the porpoising, but that is costing them downforce and ultimately lap time.

“Fundamentally, we need to understand the problem better,” Shovlin continued. “We’ve got some avenues that I think are giving us a good direction, but it’s taking a bit of time to get those parts on the car. And we’re working very hard.

“We’re well aware that there are other teams that have got on top of this problem faster than we have. And that’s not the standard we normally work to.

“Every bit of effort at the factory is going into getting on top of this, making sure we don’t neglect normal car development. But there’s a lot of work trying to pull us out of this situation at the moment.”

Shovlin is hoping that Mercedes ultimately find a solution that doesn’t involve them cutting away pieces of the floor.

They did try that during the final pre-season test, the team reportedly chipping away at the floor after each stint.

That, though, does them downforce which Shovlin does not want to sacrifice.

“If you can solve the problem with the porpoising you don’t need to give up the downforce,” he said. “The issue is that most teams, I think, to a greater or lesser extent, are trading one for the other.

“We did try a cutaway floor in Bahrain test. We tried it on Friday in Bahrain. We think what we ended up with was overall a better solution.
“But at the moment we’re considering what we’ve done as very much sticking plasters for the problem, and we need to fix the problem in a more effective way that doesn’t just drop performance.”

 

[Adam-Utd]

First it was sandbagging, now its the too big of a downforce. It's quite amusing, I dont think even Merc know what is their problem precisely.

I think it's 2/3 problems all rolled into 1.

The biggest issues they seem to have is warming up the tyres/keeping them in the correct temp window.

We've seen in qualifying they can't do 1 warm up lap and then a fast lap. They're having to do 2 warm ups and then 1 flying lap which ultimately means they'll never be using the tyres in their best condition for pure speed.

This also means the purpoising will be naturally worse. If the tyre temp is lost then so is pressure. With less pressure means the ride height will decrease and cause it to bottom out. It's a vicious circle.

Only when the tyres are fully in their window does the car seem to be able to work properly. Hence why in race conditions with a full tank of fuel and more laps they are more competitive.

It'll be nice to get some clarity from Mercedes eventually to exactly what is causing the problem and how they fix it. They're usually quite open with things like this, maybe at the end of the season.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Cheers for the posts, I am understanding more about there problem now and yes I was being far to simple.
The Mercedes post is an eye opener, even they don't know how fast the car is.

 

[Buster15]

Cheers for the posts, I am understanding more about there problem now and yes I was being far to simple.
The Mercedes post is an eye opener, even they don't know how fast the car is.

I think it is also fair to say that during the middle of last season, Mercedes stated openly that their main engineering focus was on the 2022 car.
But due to the competition with RB, they then continued to develop last year car, which incidentally gave us a fantastic set of races, Abu Dhabi excepted.

In any organisation, there are resource limitations. That and the budget cap have definitely affected Mercedes.
And yet, RB to their credit have managed to deal with last year car and this year car significantly better. As well as taking on the ownership of the power train from Honda.
As such, they have done an incredible job.

 

[arthurka]

Serious question to Hamilton fans, is there a reason he isn´t as quick as Russel in this car?
Is this the end of an era or will he come back fighting?

 

[The Firestarter]

I think it's 2/3 problems all rolled into 1.

The biggest issues they seem to have is warming up the tyres/keeping them in the correct temp window.

We've seen in qualifying they can't do 1 warm up lap and then a fast lap. They're having to do 2 warm ups and then 1 flying lap which ultimately means they'll never be using the tyres in their best condition for pure speed.

This also means the purpoising will be naturally worse. If the tyre temp is lost then so is pressure. With less pressure means the ride height will decrease and cause it to bottom out. It's a vicious circle.

Only when the tyres are fully in their window does the car seem to be able to work properly. Hence why in race conditions with a full tank of fuel and more laps they are more competitive.

It'll be nice to get some clarity from Mercedes eventually to exactly what is causing the problem and how they fix it. They're usually quite open with things like this, maybe at the end of the season.

There were also some indications that it was the suspension that causes the start of oscillations, it might be a combination of aero-mechanical factors which would make it harder to pinpoint. Even as late as Australia Ham had ride height measuring gear .

 

[dinostar77]

I think it is also fair to say that during the middle of last season, Mercedes stated openly that their main engineering focus was on the 2022 car.
But due to the competition with RB, they then continued to develop last year car, which incidentally gave us a fantastic set of races, Abu Dhabi excepted.

In any organisation, there are resource limitations. That and the budget cap have definitely affected Mercedes.
And yet, RB to their credit have managed to deal with last year car and this year car significantly better. As well as taking on the ownership of the power train from Honda.
As such, they have done an incredible job.

RB had porposing in the first test at bahrain, but their upgrade pacakage (new floor + bits and pieces) seemed to have resolved it at test 2 in spain. The question remains whether the maximum potential of this years RB is higher than that of the ferrari, who have yet to resolve all their porposing issues.

Which leads to a question with no answer at present. In the long run is it better to have a car with no porposing currently but a limited ceiling or a semi competitive car with porposing but potentially a higher ceiling for performance?

Normally you would say the former, but i think the latter would be better. My own opinion is that when ferrari get ontop of their porposing issues they will claw back 0.1-0.3 seconds a lap or something. Can RB then respond in kind?

The inability to simulate porposing in CFD or wind tunnels obviously is a massive issue that F1 will eventually resolve somehow. I think upgrades to the wind tunnels and CFD when they figure out how to simulate porposing might end up outside of the budget cap as there are many teams who share wind tunnels.

 

[dinostar77]

Serious question to Hamilton fans, is there a reason he isn´t as quick as Russel in this car?
Is this the end of an era or will he come back fighting?

Russell is used to driving a bad car. Hamilton isnt. Also key to hamiltons lap times is his ability to carry more speed into a corner, brake later, hit the apex and carry more speed out of the corner. As the car is porposing under braking hamilton cant do that therefore its affecting his laptime. His ability under braking is something, Bottas, Rosberg, Button etc none of his teammates (i dont know about alonso) could match.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Serious question to Hamilton fans, is there a reason he isn´t as quick as Russel in this car?
Is this the end of an era or will he come back fighting?

Hard to say - could be as simple as Russell is much more accustomed to extracting pace from shit cars given his last few years at Williams.

George has also come out and said that he's having back and chest pains as a result of the porpoising - so perhaps he's also pushing himself harder physically than Lewis is willing to do.

 

[dinostar77]

There were also some indications that it was the suspension that causes the start of oscillations, it might be a combination of aero-mechanical factors which would make it harder to pinpoint. Even as late as Australia Ham had ride height measuring gear .

Thats why i mentioned the suspension in my post. RB have some sort of trick suspension setup at the front i think thats perfectly legal but difficult to copy. Thats why the RB looks so good with so little porposing.

Before the season started, and we saw the car unveiling, people commented that Mercedes suspension wasnt as complex as RBs and that it could come back to bite them.

 

[The Firestarter]

Thats why i mentioned the suspension in my post. RB have some sort of trick suspension setup at the front i think thats perfectly legal but difficult to copy. Thats why the RB looks so good with so little porposing.

Before the season started, and we saw the car unveiling, people commented that Mercedes suspension wasnt as complex as RBs and that it could come back to bite them.

It might be but also the RB is like a wing design wise. Very different concept.

 

[dinostar77]

I think it's 2/3 problems all rolled into 1.

The biggest issues they seem to have is warming up the tyres/keeping them in the correct temp window.

We've seen in qualifying they can't do 1 warm up lap and then a fast lap. They're having to do 2 warm ups and then 1 flying lap which ultimately means they'll never be using the tyres in their best condition for pure speed.

This also means the purpoising will be naturally worse. If the tyre temp is lost then so is pressure. With less pressure means the ride height will decrease and cause it to bottom out. It's a vicious circle.

Only when the tyres are fully in their window does the car seem to be able to work properly. Hence why in race conditions with a full tank of fuel and more laps they are more competitive.

It'll be nice to get some clarity from Mercedes eventually to exactly what is causing the problem and how they fix it. They're usually quite open with things like this, maybe at the end of the season.

I think anyone and everyone with a interest in F1 will want to know the answer! Good post with good points though. Mercedes do have a habit of producing edgy cars that need some taming but are super quick. Do wonder if they have gone too far into the realm of edgy under the current rulebook.

 

[dinostar77]

It might be but also the RB is like a wing design wise. Very different concept.

Yes definitely. Thats what makes this season so tough and interesting. You cant copy a rivals design in isolation, without understanding how it would work on your car. Plus with limits on CFD and Wind Tunnel time you need to pick and choose carefully.

Who would have thought we'd have two completely different sidepod designs i.e. ferrari and RB and the two teams being neck and neck in laptime?

 

[mariachi-19]

Russell is used to driving a bad car. Hamilton isnt. Also key to hamiltons lap times is his ability to carry more speed into a corner, brake later, hit the apex and carry more speed out of the corner. As the car is porposing under braking hamilton cant do that therefore its affecting his laptime. His ability under braking is something, Bottas, Rosberg, Button etc none of his teammates (i dont know about alonso) could match.

Hamilton’s inability to drive a piece or shit car doesn’t do well for his reputation considering his performances when the car has been less than optimal. That’s a slippery slope you don’t want to slide down so I’d be weary of using that excuse if you’re a Hamilton fan.

Stick to the drive style excuse because it’s probably closer of the two but he needs to adapt. This is what will define him more than his titles as being elite in the same category of Schumacher Prost Senna et el

 

[F-Red]

I think upgrades to the wind tunnels and CFD when they figure out how to simulate porposing might end up outside of the budget cap as there are many teams who share wind tunnels.

You won't be able to accurately simulate this through a wind tunnel or CFD though. There's far too many moving pieces on a car & track to be able to accurately give a solution through those means. Which is why Mercedes are using sensors in a race environment to get the data models as they can't get it through CFD or a wind tunnel.

 

[dinostar77]

You won't be able to accurately simulate this through a wind tunnel or CFD though. There's far too many moving pieces on a car & track to be able to accurately give a solution through those means. Which is why Mercedes are using sensors in a race environment to get the data models as they can't get it through CFD or a wind tunnel.

Yes. Eventually someone will workout how to do it. When they do then we will have a new generation of CFD and wind tunnels (may take a few years or ten years but eventually someone will figure it out). Thats what i meant to say, i probably worded it badly in my post.

 

[dinostar77]

Hamilton’s inability to drive a piece or shit car doesn’t do well for his reputation considering his performances when the car has been less than optimal. That’s a slippery slope you don’t want to slide down so I’d be weary of using that excuse if you’re a Hamilton fan.

Stick to the drive style excuse because it’s probably closer of the two but he needs to adapt. This is what will define him more than his titles as being elite in the same category of Schumacher Prost Senna et el

All drivers adapt their driving style every season and throughout the season as the car changes and evolves whether it be via the car geometry or how it reacts to a circuit or surface of a circuit.

Your Hamilton stance is well known on here, im not trying to be a "hamilton fan" and make excuses for him. I am simply posting about his driving style and how it can be affected for him and george by the issues the car is giving them. Russells has performed well beyond what he should have with the car as it is and Lewis has underperformed. Russell may just have a driving style that can get a better lap time out of this car at present.

This would be no different if RB had made a car that understeered into corners. Max would struggle more than Perez as max prefers a car that oversteers into corners so he can correct it mid-corner, whereas Perez driving style perfers a car that understeers and Perez can control the sliding and subsequent graining of the tyres better. Same concept, for lewis and max in this example. RB dial out any understeer in the RB and max will drive faster. Mercedes get ontop of the porposing and that will allow Hamilton to drive the corner as he naturally does and he will drive a faster lap. Simple.

Also i have no time or inclination to get into zealot fanboyism about who the best driver is or best of all time or titles won or whether they were deserved etc. Thats for primary school aged children to discuss in the playground. I prefer sensible adult conversations that are actually interesting as a few people have posted today already, Paddy, Adam, firestarter, buster etc.

 

[F-Red]

Yes. Eventually someone will workout how to do it. When they do then we will have a new generation of CFD and wind tunnels (may take a few years or ten years but eventually someone will figure it out). Thats what i meant to say, i probably worded it badly in my post.

I don't think they will, from my limited experience of using wind tunnels for the industry I work in, both forms of simulation are only as good as the data that's fed into them. The challenge with porpoising is that it can occur due to multiple different scenarios, the largest being the track. I don't see F1 teams getting a return of capturing loads of data points for something that feels like it'll be resolved with a new floor.

The balance I can see is that Merc's challenge (or positive!) for many years was that their cars have a very narrow operating window where they have a sweet spot for the car. From what I can see this year, is that Red Bull and Ferrari have developed an initial car that has a wider range and can cope with the variations from track to track, and upgrades then will begin to exploit those further. Merc's either going to widen the operating range (unlikely) or find the solution that will unlock the performance they're seeing in the wind tunnel & CFD with a steady airflow around the car.

 

[dinostar77]

I don't think they will, from my limited experience of using wind tunnels for the industry I work in, both forms of simulation are only as good as the data that's fed into them. The challenge with porpoising is that it can occur due to multiple different scenarios, the largest being the track. I don't see F1 teams getting a return of capturing loads of data points for something that feels like it'll be resolved with a new floor.

The balance I can see is that Merc's challenge (or positive!) for many years was that their cars have a very narrow operating window where they have a sweet spot for the car. From what I can see this year, is that Red Bull and Ferrari have developed an initial car that has a wider range and can cope with the variations from track to track, and upgrades then will begin to exploit those further. Merc's either going to widen the operating range (unlikely) or find the solution that will unlock the performance they're seeing in the wind tunnel & CFD with a steady airflow around the car.

I'll defer to your experience of the industry buddy. Question how do aircraft manufacturers test for aero stall in aircraft? Can't F1 learn from them? I totally get that each track and its surface will affect porposing differently. But there must be some CFD lessons to be learnt from the aircraft industry?!?

Or is the longer term answer simply to change the rulebook and allow active suspension or mass dampers back into F1? Porposing eradicated instantly.

 

[F-Red]

I'll defer to your experience of the industry buddy. Question how do aircraft manufacturers test for aero stall in aircraft? Can't F1 learn from them? I totally get that each track and its surface will affect porposing differently. But there must be some CFD lessons to be learnt from the aircraft industry?!?

Mine is more around bicycles, so how aircraft manufacturers test it is beyond my realm of experience. That said, the design of a plane is fairly static compared to the design of an F1 car. So over time, design experience probably drives that more than anything else, with CFD merely confirming the parameters based on the data its fed into. Also the difference with aircrafts is the speed and characteristics of the airflow are probably more consistent to the way F1 teams use the car to move the airflow around it.

Or is the longer term answer simply to change the rulebook and allow active suspension or mass dampers back into F1? Porposing eradicated instantly.

That is one way they could change it, but the fact that some teams have solved porpoising already means the solution is there already. I can't see them opening up active suspension though as back in 2019 they (Tombazis) rejected it saying that it wouldn't allow for close racing. Looking at the racing this year (albeit not Imola), they're probably right in that approach.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I'll defer to your experience of the industry buddy. Question how do aircraft manufacturers test for aero stall in aircraft? Can't F1 learn from them? I totally get that each track and its surface will affect porposing differently. But there must be some CFD lessons to be learnt from the aircraft industry?!?

Or is the longer term answer simply to change the rulebook and allow active suspension or mass dampers back into F1? Porposing eradicated instantly.

I believe the aircraft industry ultimately use test pilots after simulations, to check for aero stall. I recall seeing a documentary on the 737 Max (bad example I know!).

 

[dinostar77]

Scarbs on official f1 channel talking about sidepods. Around 9:40 he mentions that Mercedes are producing the most downforce with their slimlime sidepod design.


Edit: bloody F1 channel blocks external links. Its on youtube anyway.

 

[SirAnderson]

Verstappeennnnnnnn wow what a driver.

So so glad to have you back.
Thoughts on Leclerc?

 

[Bepi]

Max’ full upset in Imola is reaaaally good for enjoyment and the season at large. It also shows cars can still be improved beyond small, marginal gains… that’s why I cannot understand Mercedes actually folding so early?

 

[Zlaatan]

I'll defer to your experience of the industry buddy. Question how do aircraft manufacturers test for aero stall in aircraft? Can't F1 learn from them? I totally get that each track and its surface will affect porposing differently. But there must be some CFD lessons to be learnt from the aircraft industry?!?

Or is the longer term answer simply to change the rulebook and allow active suspension or mass dampers back into F1? Porposing eradicated instantly.

From what I've read the reason F1 teams can't rely on CFD is because simulating airflow so close to the ground is incredibly difficult. It seems unlikely that the aircraft industry would have a lot of experience with that, plus when they look at stalling they've never had to consider a 3rd factor like the ground either, so I don't know how much help they could offer with this particular issue. Not that I'm an expert on any of this, just speculating.

What I'd love to know is if F1 teams can only use windtunnels of a certain spec and if they sort of lock in a certain wind tunnel to use for X amount of years to FIA? Because the reason they can't work on finding a solution for porpoising right now in a windtunnel is because they would destroy the rolling mat that the car runs on even before the stalling occurs, but surely if things were simple (like they never are in F1) I was thinking they could build a rig above the mat and ignore the wheels not moving, or alternatively use a windtunnel with a static floor, slap down a 5cm steel plate and then porpoise all night long. Does anyone know the rules on this?