F1 2021 Season

Gringo said:
It is new evidence youre right. But Lewis got the overtake done in the end so nothing doing now in my opinion. It was a simple "give the place back" or 5 sec penalty decision for me. A penalty that affects the next race is overstepping the mark.




Which is why I lambasted the stewards, the overhead showed enough evidence with the braking telemetry they would have had to atleast investigate. Masi is running the show though and the job is too big for him looking from the outside.
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Right, it's his fault that he couldn't magically produce the footage and also his fault that the he informed the teams of the stewards decision which he literally can't decide on. :wenger:

He fecked up in other races, but blaming him for the last race is just plain ridiculous.
 
Norris said:
That was pretty blatant by Max. Should be penalized really. Did not really make any effort to turn until he knew it was too late.
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This. It’s has the same effect without having to physically steer towards the overtaking car.

The fact both drivers went off the track as a result, Max included, imo tells you what he was trying to do. You can brake late but he’s run off and took Lewis with him, blatant really.

The moment the entire car length of Lewis is about to pass he just leaves off the braking and pushes him wide.
What would have happened if Lewis got a puncture as a result, for example? It should definitely be a penalty of some kind imo.
 
The lack of defence for Max in this thread tells you all you need to know :lol: - Merc should send a link of this to the FIA. Max might end up disqualified for this coming weekend
 
The devil's advocate position is to say that Hamilton wouldn't have made the corner regardless, and there's no way to prove that he would have in hindsight.

It's definitely a penalty though.
 
I wonder if Horner has got Albon on the simulator trying to create some late braking into turn 4 at Interlagos.
 
:lol:

Is there anything in the rules factually about dealing with an incident already concluded upon in the race based on new evidence? Or is this relatively unknown territory?
 
It was a blatant penalty at the time, the stewards simply bottled making a decision hoping that Hamilton had the speed to make it past later.

There's no reason for Max not to drive in such an underhanded way, because it takes him driving on top of other drivers for him to actually get punished.
 
Xeno said:
The devil's advocate position is to say that Hamilton wouldn't have made the corner regardless, and there's no way to prove that he would have in hindsight.

It's definitely a penalty though.
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Of course there's ways to prove that :lol: What are braking points, speeds etc recorded for !?

Not that it is needed. We can conclude Hamilton would have made the corner by knowing he managed to dodge someone trying to run him off the track and still make it back. With that sort of control he would have easily made it.
 
Xeno said:
The devil's advocate position is to say that Hamilton wouldn't have made the corner regardless, and there's no way to prove that he would have in hindsight.

It's definitely a penalty though.
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Except he made that corner on every other lap and got nowhere near that line.

And Max didn’t drive his line on any other lap.
 
Penalty all-day and the deafening silence from the Max Stans tells you everything you need to know about the defence.
 
Abizzz said:
Of course there's ways to prove that :lol:
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I dont think it needs to be proven
The onboard shows that at the braking point, Verstappen’s front wheels were overlapping with Hamilton’s rear wheels at the moment Verstappen starts to apply steering lock.

The positioning at corner entry is relevant because the penalties issued to Lando Norris and Sergio Perez at the Austrian Grand Prix established the interpretation that if a car is “side by side” – with the implication being this means front wheel to front wheel – then the driver on the inside must give room.
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he didnt give room and hamilton was beyond the side to side limit therefore he hd to give room - if he chooses not to deliberately or if he simply misjudges it through error the fact remains he didnt give him the room he has to

FEL_7sOXwA4P3n9


and as the new camera footage shows it dows not look like max was putting in all his effort to hit the apex (and thats being generous)
 
First season watching F1 but what a season, so tight between Lewis and Max. Can’t wait for the final races. Feel like I’m lucky to jump in in such an even title race.
 
Xeno said:
The devil's advocate position is to say that Hamilton wouldn't have made the corner regardless, and there's no way to prove that he would have in hindsight.

It's definitely a penalty though.
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:lol: there's literally no devils advocate to be needed. Hamilton is on the normal racing line, if Verstappen isn't there he happily slows down and sweeps into the corner like normal. Look at the over take on Perez or the several examples from the sprint race in the same area.
 
blythy said:
Penalty all-day and the deafening silence from the Max Stans tells you everything you need to know about the defence.
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Obviously Max was in the wrong, during the race I thought he braked far too late to try and keep Lewis behind him but failed and completely missed the corner. At the time I thought the stewards would tell him to give Hamilton the position but they didnt. They said no investigation necessary and Hamilton overtook him shortly after. It was obvious Lewis had by far the quicker car so Max just took it easy and made sure he finished second. The stewards simply fecked up. It would be weird to hand Max a retrospective time penalty now like some on here are saying. During the race fair enough, give him a 5s penalty or whatever and he can account for it and try and keep the gap between him and Bottas above 5s but now there's nothing he can do. You can't say no investigation necessary during the race then give him a time penalty a few days later. Would be a complete farce to decide the title that way. But then considering how much points Max has lost this season already due to others fecking up (blown tyre, taken out by Hamilton and Bottas) it sounds about right if they do.
 
I wonder weather max was actually trying to cause a collision, he makes so little effort to hold his line and hit the apex either via steering input or braking, infact he makes no effort and very deliberately drives straight into Lewis's line despite the fact he could quite clearly see Lewis and could quite clearly see that Lewis was ahead and had the line advantage.

A DNF for both would be a pretty good result for Max and he must of known that with the pace Lewis had it was a matter of when not if for Lewis to overtake, so lose some of your lead or try and do something that keeps your lead intact. He strikes me as Arrogant enough to try it, and the evidence is there for all to see.
 
Longshanks said:
I wonder weather max was actually trying to cause a collision, he makes so little effort to hold his line and hit the apex either via steering input or braking, infact he makes no effort and very deliberately drives straight into Lewis's line despite the fact he could quite clearly see Lewis and could quite clearly see that Lewis was ahead and had the line advantage.

A DNF for both would be a pretty good result for Max and he must of known that with the pace Lewis had it was a matter of when not if for Lewis to overtake, so lose some of your lead or try and do something that keeps your lead intact. He strikes me as Arrogant enough to try it, and the evidence is there for all to see.
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If Lewis is on pole this weekend (which seems a distinct possibility given the performance last week) then I wouldn't rule.out verstappen harpooning him on the first corner... might be the only chance he gets as I could see Lewis being out of reach pretty quickly
 
ArjenIsM3 said:
Obviously Max was in the wrong, during the race I thought he braked far too late to try and keep Lewis behind him but failed and completely missed the corner. At the time I thought the stewards would tell him to give Hamilton the position but they didnt. They said no investigation necessary and Hamilton overtook him shortly after. It was obvious Lewis had by far the quicker car so Max just took it easy and made sure he finished second. The stewards simply fecked up. It would be weird to hand Max a retrospective time penalty now like some on here are saying. During the race fair enough, give him a 5s penalty or whatever and he can account for it and try and keep the gap between him and Bottas above 5s but now there's nothing he can do. You can't say no investigation necessary during the race then give him a time penalty a few days later. Would be a complete farce to decide the title that way. But then considering how much points Max has lost this season already due to others fecking up (blown tyre, taken out by Hamilton and Bottas) it sounds about right if they do.
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Funny...

I assume you are joking.
 
Longshanks said:
I wonder weather max was actually trying to cause a collision, he makes so little effort to hold his line and hit the apex either via steering input or braking, infact he makes no effort and very deliberately drives straight into Lewis's line despite the fact he could quite clearly see Lewis and could quite clearly see that Lewis was ahead and had the line advantage.

A DNF for both would be a pretty good result for Max and he must of known that with the pace Lewis had it was a matter of when not if for Lewis to overtake, so lose some of your lead or try and do something that keeps your lead intact. He strikes me as Arrogant enough to try it, and the evidence is there for all to see.
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That's certainly what it looked like to me.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
I think if max was going into anyone else he would have bailed but he benefited from taking out Lewis
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I posted this last time when max and Lewis collided and he went over the top of him, anyone else going around max in Brazil he would have given space but he give Lewis the option of back out or we both crash which will benefit me.
 
sun_tzu said:
If Lewis is on pole this weekend (which seems a distinct possibility given the performance last week) then I wouldn't rule.out verstappen harpooning him on the first corner... might be the only chance he gets as I could see Lewis being out of reach pretty quickly
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Yeah we will see, Lewis has actually done very well to avoid being a victim of Max's 'defensive driving' so far this season, Sunday being the latest example. He has also essentially let max through a few times when he knows he's been beaten fairly.

So it will be interesting if max gets a run at Lewis going into turn one, Lewis may well just let him go and not get to involved knowing he has a full race to get back at him. If max very deliberately drives into him (which is a distinct possibility) it will be interesting to see how the stewards react to it.
 
sun_tzu said:
To be expected

As is redbull protesting the rear wing of the merc (suspect they will wait till the actual race so they can potentially get all mercs points taken off them for the gp rather than just a grid penalty)
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or maybe not

Red Bull is not planning to protest Mercedes’ rear wing despite questioning it during the São Paulo GP Formula 1 weekend, according to team boss Christian Horner
Mercedes’ impressive straight-line speed performance in recent rounds has caught the attention of main rivals Red Bull.

After qualifying, Verstappen was seen inspecting the rear wing of Hamilton’s W12 - resulting in a €50,000 fine - with the Dutchman saying ‘there’s clearly something going on’ after qualifying.
Despite Red Bull’s suspicions, Horner says his team doesn’t intend to protest as it continues to analyse and understand the reasons behind Mercedes’ straight-line speed advantage.
“We won’t be protesting at this race,” Horner told Sky Sports. “It’s important to understand where the speed has come from. Obviously they’ve had a new engine here, they’re running Monaco levels of downforce

“When he passed Max he was close to 30 kilometres quicker on that lap so it’s just something that we need to understand. It’s down to the FIA to police the sport and to govern it. We trust in them and their tests and their investigation.”

Given Mercedes’ advantage, Horner admitted that his driver had no chance of keeping the lead.

“It’s always hard to take a loss when you’ve led for as many laps but that was against expectation,” Horner added.

“I thought Max did a hell of a job to keep Lewis behind for as long as he managed. We saw yesterday the pace of that car was just unstoppable today. For us, damage limitation.”


Mercedes boss Toto Wolff is unconcerned about a potential protest by Red Bull, telling Sky Sports after the race:

“I don’t care,” he said.

“The car is fully legal and we’re happy to drive it everywhere. You can say was it fully legal after the qualifying. We think it was but it failed this one test because the rear wing was broken, the flap was broken.”

Explaining Mercedes’ dominant form at Interlagos, he added: “I think we’re having a much less draggy car, the engine is fresh which makes a big difference, the concept is good in straight-line speed, which we had in the past. People are free to challenge that and protest, which may happen.


“We will offer them a rear wing to put it at home, in the library or cut it into a thousand pieces.”
 
Leg-End said:
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At the time it was a definite penalty I.e. 5 seconds. Now the race is done and dusted, maybe a penalty few points added to his super licence?

A 3 place grid drop for next race would be fair. Though a 5 second penalty as max would lose 3 more points to lewis and lead would be cut to 11 and make the last three races even more spicy. I think he will get away with a few points on his super licence. No idea how many he has or hamilton has before either of them get a one race ban.
 
Amazed a few of the pundits think that move was legal….he drove off the circuit! If he makes the corner and runs Hamilton wide you would say robust but borderline legal, he wasn’t even close to staying on track so his intentions were very clear, you crash me but you don’t overtake me, your choice.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
or maybe not
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Perhaps... then again perhaps horner is lying

Perhaps red bull will introduce their own new wing and merc will protest it

If they think they know what merc has done and they think its illegal they will challenge (suspect that's what happened last weekend as the initial complaint wasn't about the 0.2mm drs)

Or they know what merc have done and now think its legal so will copy it

Only other options are they don't know what they did... or it is something they can't copy (stalling the diffuser air with the low rake for example) in which case they might struggle
 
sun_tzu said:
Perhaps... then again perhaps horner is lying

Perhaps red bull will introduce their own new wing and merc will protest it

If they think they know what merc has done and they think its illegal they will challenge (suspect that's what happened last weekend as the initial complaint wasn't about the 0.2mm drs)

Or they know what merc have done and now think its legal so will copy it

Only other options are they don't know what they did... or it is something they can't copy (stalling the diffuser air with the low rake for example) in which case they might struggle
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No one is introducing or designing new components now. 100% of resources are on new years car. It's about getting the best you can out of the car for these last few races.
 
dinostar77 said:
No one is introducing or designing new components now. 100% of resources are on new years car. It's about getting the best you can out of the car for these last few races.
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I could see redpoll rushing through a new rear wing if they think they can get 3 tenths a lap from it... not for this weekend but they probabky have time to get something for Abu Dhabi if they are pretty sure what merc are doing (as I say it may be mostly the new engine tuned for less GPS and the low rake diffuser stall ... and for sure red bull can't replicate that)
 
redshaw said:
hrnPGE3.jpg
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So far all the talk of Hamilton being insanely faster than everybody else, this actually shows his top speed isn't better than anybody else at all.

It's more the fact he was reaching his top speed faster due to the newer engine + having good traction/exits from corners.

The time's he did manage to get passed verstappen were due to him over covering on turn 1 rather than pure top speed itself.
 
Adam-Utd said:
So far all the talk of Hamilton being insanely faster than everybody else, this actually shows his top speed isn't better than anybody else at all.

It's more the fact he was reaching his top speed faster due to the newer engine + having good traction/exits from corners.

The time's he did manage to get passed verstappen were due to him over covering on turn 1 rather than pure top speed itself.
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Horner mentioned Hamilton was using Monaco level rear wing I think?
 
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