Explosions reported at Brussels airport.

[Grinner]

The man behind the Paris attacks was captured in Brussels last week.

Yes, but this has surely happened too soon after that for it to be a cause.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Well there's nothing to discuss about what's going on other than the reasons behind it. The event has hopefully already happened (I mean that as in 'it's over' rather than hoping it happened myself) and there won't be more attacks in the immediate future. Unless you want to keep talking about the news reporting on how many have died and been injured then what is there to talk about?

If there's nothing to talk about perhaps we should just merge this into one of the many CE threads about terrorism / islam?

I actually use the Caf to keep track of what is going on as people are quite good at posting lots of different news sources; but if you would rather a never ending argument about religion and geo politics then go right ahead.

 

[JustAFan]

Yes, but this has surely happened too soon after that for it to be a cause.

Would have to guess that they had done a good deal of planning before hand. It might have already been planned for today, might have been moved up after the arrest. Unless they catch any of those involved or find information when they search their homes and find info we won't know for sure.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Yes, but this has surely happened too soon after that for it to be a cause.

The Guardian have suggested that terror cells bought forward their plans in order to avoid being exposed by him.

 

[Tommy]

The Guardian have suggested that terror cells bought forward their plans in order to avoid being exposed by him.

That would make a lot of sense.

 

[dellboyy]

I didn't mean from that perspective ffs! I meant from the perspective of knowing your enemies!

Back then if you saw a German you knew he was the enemy. You can't do that now with Muslims can you?

The atrocities and scale of both world wars will hopefully never be repeated again but at least you knew who the fecking enemy was.

Not strictly true with the 'knowing your enemy' though either... not every German was a Nazi etc. Just read about what George Takei went through in America... pretty much all the American Japanese population were carted off to camps with no thought to their actual political stance... almost what Trump's suggesting he wants to happen to the American Muslim population.

Whatever the situation though it certainly isn't easy to fight hidden enemies in our population, i'll agree that much, so i know what you're getting at.

 

[carvajal]

I think that is time to limit the Schengen treaty.

So why is Belgium getting targeted then? What are they doing that's pissing off extremists so much?

It is the heart of Europe,the capital of EU.In my opinion is a way to show strength. "You catch Abdeslam,your police is everywhere and we organize a terrorist attack in 3 days"

 

[Crossie]

The Guardian have suggested that terror cells bought forward their plans in order to avoid being exposed by him.

Suicide bombing like it happened today doesn't need sophisticated planning. All you needed for today was a small number of people willing to do it (4-5 would be suffice) and agree on the timing.

 

[Crossie]

I think that is time to limit the Schengen treaty.

It is the heart of Europe,the capital of EU.In my opinion is a way to show strength. "You catch Abdeslam,your police is everywhere and we organize a terrorist attack in 3 days"

You don't need to cross a border to plan and execute a suicide bombing attack. That's the sad reality.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Awful news yet again.

It's sad to say but it Won't be long before UK and Germany gets attacked

 

[matherto]

Wow

And I thought the ISIS idiots were the crazy bunch...and then you read this...

I didn't say anyone would agree with it or that it wasn't a completely crazy thought. I don't advocate the mindless murder of millions of innocent people, it's a horrible thing to suggest, but that's their level of thinking though, as much as we know they want it to be us versus them and we try our best to avoid it, it's inevitable.

Especially when it's a very likely possibility that someone as extremely racist, idiotic and downright wrong as Donald Trump will be in charge of the most powerful country in the world backed by millions of patriotic, bigoted, USA #1! supporters.

 

[Grinner]

I think that is time to limit the Schengen treaty.

It is the heart of Europe,the capital of EU.In my opinion is a way to show strength. "You catch Abdeslam,your police is everywhere and we organize a terrorist attack in 3 days"

Yeah that makes sense. It also sounds like it's a pretty soft target.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Awful news yet again.

It's sad to say but it Won't be long before UK and Germany gets attacked

I dread that Syrian refugees are involved in this or future attacks as it will spell the end to Europe helping them in the same capacity.

 

[Kaos]

That's the problem. I'm not sayng that the post I made isn't deeply disturbing but that's what it's going to take to truly stop all of this and we'll never do it (morally, quite rightly so).

Not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslim, that is a fact. However this threat from IS and their radicalisation of thousands if not millions of people poses us with the question, how do we know who is a terrorist and who isn't? The only way to deal with it is to dehumanise the entire thing and wipe out Islam (other religions too perhaps? Though if we didn't have religion to fight over we'd fight over something else instead)

I'm not saying that's anythng other than a horrible, horrible idea, but these attacks will only escalate until we do finally engage them in the war that they want to bring about the apocalypse.

You can't reason with that, you can't adapt your ways to include them because it's completely incompatible with us and our way of life. They see us as the terrorists and our way of life as terrorism. You can't give them a Caliphate because the Caliphate has to spread until it takes over otherwise it ceases being a Caliphate.

What do we do when they finally get their hands on chemical/biological/nuclear weapons and murder hundreds of thousands of people in one attack rather than just hundreds like they are doing now?

I understand emotions may be running high, but feck me this is an insane post.

Firstly, the response your describing is EXACTLY the narrative these terror groups are trying to steer towards. They want to create this huge conflict and they also want nothing more than Muslims in the West to feel marginalised to further add fuel to such a proposed conflict. By pursuing your sentiments they've essentially achieved their goals.

Secondly, your generalisation of the Middle East is bizarre at best, and woefully ignorant at the very least. Contrary to what the media might tell you, the Middle East isn't just one large desert filled with hostile, nomadic sand people who want to destroy everything we stand for. Its not even entirely Muslim when you factor in the Christians, secularists and millions of others. Even amongst the Muslims you have a Shia-Sunni divide, with extremist members of the latter sect being exclusively responsible for the attacks in Europe.

You want to know what the biggest irony is? The countries which we are best buddies with in the region are arming and sponsoring the very same groups in Syria and Iraq. David Cameron is all too happy to give weaponry to Saudi Arabia, while they return the favour to Al Nusra and Al-Qaeda affilitated groups in Syria.

 

[matherto]

I dread that Syrian refugees are involved in this or future attacks as it will spell the end to Europe helping them in the same capacity.

I'd be worried if I were them of retaliatory attacks from idiots linking them to attacks like these.

Muslim communities have been mindlessly attacked in the past for this stuff, anyone who a racist idiot could mistakenly identify as a potential terrorist will probably be on edge right now and that's so wrong.

 

[Fully Fledged]

That's crazy and sad and what you hear from every country. Students, people with a university degree and a job, ... one day leave all this behind to fight for a stupid ideology.

In one way or the other though it had happened pre-'IS' terror attacks as well:
I'm to lazy to go back but wasn't one of the attackers in London a doctor who worked in a hospital in the UK?
I'm pretty certain that some of the 9/11 attackers were engineering students from Hamburg, Germany.

This really shows how complex the matter is.

One of the Guys who was caught at the airport in Glasgow was a doctor.

The 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack was a terrorist ramming attack which occurred on Saturday 30 June 2007, at 15:11 BST, when a dark green Jeep Cherokee loaded with propane canisters was driven into the glass doors of the Glasgow International Airport terminal and set ablaze.[3] It was the first terrorist attack to take place in Scotland since the Lockerbie bombing in 1988.[4] The attack occurred three days after the appointment of Scottish MP Gordon Brown as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, but Downing Street dismissed suggestions of a connection,[5] although a close link was quickly established to the 2007 London car bombs the previous day.

Security bollards outside the entrance stopped the car from entering the terminal, although the doors were damaged. The car's driver was severely burnt in the ensuing fire and five members of the public were also injured, although none were seriously harmed. Some injuries were sustained by those assisting the police in detaining the occupants.

Both of the car occupants were apprehended at the scene, and all those injured were taken to the Royal Alexandra Hospital in nearby Paisley.[1][2][6][7] Within three days, Scotland Yard had confirmed that eight people had been taken into custody in connection with this incident and that in London.[1][8][9]

Police identified the two men as Bilal Abdullah, a British-born, Muslim doctor of Iraqi descent working at the Royal Alexandra Hospital,[10][11] and Kafeel Ahmed, also known as Khalid Ahmed, an engineer and the driver, who was treated for fatal burns at the same hospital.[12] The newspaper, The Australian, alleges that a suicide note indicated that the two had intended to die in the attack.[13] Kafeel Ahmed died from his injuries on 2 August.[14] Bilal Abdullah was later found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum of 32 years.

 

[Crossie]

I dread that Syrian refugees are involved in this or future attacks as it will spell the end to Europe helping them in the same capacity.

There are enough European-born idiots who are happy to blow themselves up.

 

[Crossie]

One of the Guys who was caught at the airport in Glasgow was a doctor.

Thanks, so it wasn't London attacks but Glasgow. Sad, really, that this cruel islamistic ideology infects people across all sorts of education.

 

[RobinLFC]

This is getting a little overwhelming just to digest, I cannot honestly fathom how people living within Belgium are even coming to terms with the fact that the extremists have infiltrated into their country to this level.

They haven't, though, at least that's not how I look at it. It's not like they chose Sint-Jans-Molenbeek as their ideal location to operate from and deceived our authorities in order to settle there. Salah Abdeslam and Abdelhamid Abaaoud (the real brain behind the Paris attacks who was killed in a raid in Saint-Denis five days after the attacks) are childhood friends who are born and bred in Molenbeek, they did some petty crimes and the likes but didn't radicalize until a couple of years ago. They were already on the police's radar previous to the Paris attacks.

It's exactly the same in the banlieu in Paris though, don't know the situation in London but you get freaks like that everywhere. Like others already said, when they blindfolded you and dropped you in the middle of Molenbeek you'd think you weren't even in Europe. The little towns around Brussels like Molenbeek, Schaarbeek, even Anderlecht and the likes get avoided by a lot of people because you just don't feel safe there.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Amazing, as usual.

Hitchens with his special brand of amazing idiocy. Yep.

 

[rcoobc]

Poor Maths, he's got taken apart here

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

So why is Belgium getting targeted then? What are they doing that's pissing off extremists so much?

So European countries are just getting lumped in together? There's no specific demands or statements from whoever planned this? I'm confused about what they want.

If we were talking about attacks in the UK or France for instance, one might link them to ongoing military action in Africa or the Middle East, however the Belgium isn't prolific in either sphere. Numerous cells or radicalised individuals have been traced back to the country in recent years though, which can be attributed to failings in domestic policy (shared by other European countries) or Brussels convenience as transport hub for much of northern Europe. Places like Molenbeek have been neglected for too long, from community relations/integration to intelligence gathering. European countries also have thousands of residents or citizens fighting for various extremist groups in the ME, which contrasts poorly with America in particular; and such people eventually wend their way home.

 

[matherto]

I understand emotions may be running high, but feck me this is an insane post.

Firstly, the response your describing is EXACTLY the narrative these terror groups are trying to steer towards. They want to create this huge conflict and they also want nothing more than Muslims in the West to feel marginalised to further add fuel to such a proposed conflict. By pursuing your sentiments they've essentially achieved their goals.

Secondly, your generalisation of the Middle East is bizarre at best, and woefully ignorant at the very least. Contrary to what the media might tell you, the Middle East isn't just one large desert filled with hostile, nomadic sand people who want to destroy everything we stand for. Its not even entirely Muslim when you factor in the Christians, secularists and millions of others. Even amongst the Muslims you have a Shia-Sunni divide, with extremist members of the latter sect being exclusively responsible for the attacks in Europe.

You want to know what the biggest irony is? The countries which we are best buddies with in the region are arming and sponsoring the very same groups in Syria and Iraq. David Cameron is all too happy to give weaponry to Saudi Arabia, while they return the favour to Al Nusra and Al-Qaeda affilitated groups in Syria.

You see, I didn't refute that it's exactly the narrative the terror groups are trying to steer towards. The fact of the matter is someone has to be realistic and finally say it out loud. It IS us versus them. Them being IS, not your everyday muslim neighbour (albeit you could never know if they were being radicalised or not, such is the level of infiltration into society that these terror groups have managed). Our way of life and Islamic State's way of life cannot co-exist. It's one or the other, so either they wipe us out or we wipe them out. The only way to wipe them out totally is to take anyone out that could conceivably think like them after we get rid of them. We thought we'd won the war in Iraq and killed off Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and yet IS rose from that because we didn't count on the original collateral damage radicalising people in the first place.

Also it's not woefully ignorant. I didn't suggest for one second that there weren't Christians, Jews, secularists, or any other group in the middle east but what I did suggest, and what we ALL know to be true is that it's the current hotbed for all the current tension and terrorism and the whole area is a complete mess. Various different groups with various different agendas fighting for and against our allies. The very fact that IS kill more Muslims than anyone else does shows the scale of the problem. The ONLY option is to make the entire area a complete wasteland and then focus on the splinter cells in Europe. I didn't say it was a good option, I didn't say it's not a completely ridiculous, horrifically immoral option, I know it is, but if you want terrorism to stop you kill the infection, kill the cancer at it's source and don't stop until you make sure everything is gone. Cancer can crop up again and IS are a cancer just as extremist terrorism is full stop. Kill it all off.

I'm also well aware of the irony of who we're best buddies with. We should never deal with Saudi Arabia, they're at the very heart of the problem, they provide huge amounts of backing to the people we're fighting. Funding and backing with weapons and intel to so called 'moderate terrorists' is bullshit, we should be wiping them out along with the ones we're fighting against but of course the political agendas are all still based around Russia versus the US so these countries and these groups are caught in the crossfire of the proxy cold war. The West backed Bin Laden and co in the 80's to fight against the Soviets and look where that got us and yet we won't learn our lessons whatsoever. Someone do the honourable (or dishonourable) thing and just end it all for good rather than beating around the bush. If we want to be free and safe that is what we've got to do otherwise there will ALWAYS be another group willing to kill lots of our people because they don't agree with us and our way of life.

 

[Ødegaard]

That last bit wont go down to well with the caf lefties

I'm a leftie, but even I think they should be tortured until we're bored with them, and then let them be killed through impaling for a fair few days.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

The ONLY option is to make the entire area a complete wasteland and then focus on the splinter cells in Europe. I didn't say it was a good option, I didn't say it's not a completely ridiculous, horrifically immoral option, I know it is, but if you want terrorism to stop you kill the infection, kill the cancer at it's source and don't stop until you make sure everything is gone. Cancer can crop up again and IS are a cancer just as extremist terrorism is full stop. Kill it all off.

Wow.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I'm a leftie, but even I think they should be tortured until we're bored with them, and then let them be killed through impaling for a fair few days.

You'd advocate doing this for all suspected terrorists, would you? Or just the ones we're certain of? Like all of those people never charged with anything in Guantanamo Bay?

 

[rcoobc]

Impressionable people -> Get swayed into believing that vaccinations are bad -> Don't vaccinate their kids -> Kids die.
Impressionable people -> Get swayed into believing that gangs are cool -> Become a gang member -> Get killed in a gang fight.
Impressionable people -> Get swayed into believing that Liverpool are scum -> Become a hooligan -> Get arrested in a foreign country for hooliganism.
Impressionable people -> Get swayed into believing that conspiracies didn't happen -> Deny 9/11 -> Post on the internet about how the government are all liars.

I think this is the same mechanism that causes homegrown terrorism. Probably.

 

[TheReligion]

So why is Belgium getting targeted then? What are they doing that's pissing off extremists so much?

Easy target I think mate

 

[Dans]

This is getting a little overwhelming just to digest, I cannot honestly fathom how people living within Belgium are even coming to terms with the fact that the extremists have infiltrated into their country to this level.

It's worse than infiltration - they are bred there.

 

[Blodssvik]

So a nuclear power plant is being evacuated now?

 

[Dans]

So European countries are just getting lumped in together? There's no specific demands or statements from whoever planned this? I'm confused about what they want.

If you fight IS, you are part of the coalition in any way, you are a legitimate target for them.

 

[RedSky]

So why is Belgium getting targeted then? What are they doing that's pissing off extremists so much?

Might be due to its location in Europe? Right next to Germany, France and the UK, 3 big hitters in Europe. Good way of causing panic when it's happening in a country right next to you.

 

[Kaos]

Hitchens with his special brand of amazing idiocy. Yep.

He's a neocon apologist who thought the Iraq war was a brilliant idea, hardly surprising he'd come up with that pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

 

[RedTiger]

Yes, but this has surely happened too soon after that for it to be a cause.

They were probably planning it anyway but the arrest of abdelsalam and the potential chance of being fingered push the bombings forward.

 

[Ødegaard]

You'd advocate doing this for all suspected terrorists, would you? Or just the ones we're certain of? Like all of those people never charged with anything in Guantanamo Bay?

Those certain of and convicted in court ofc.
Cannot be a harsh enough penalty in terms of pain before death.

 

[Kaos]

You see, I didn't refute that it's exactly the narrative the terror groups are trying to steer towards. The fact of the matter is someone has to be realistic and finally say it out loud. It IS us versus them. Them being IS, not your everyday muslim neighbour (albeit you could never know if they were being radicalised or not, such is the level of infiltration into society that these terror groups have managed). Our way of life and Islamic State's way of life cannot co-exist. It's one or the other, so either they wipe us out or we wipe them out. The only way to wipe them out totally is to take anyone out that could conceivably think like them after we get rid of them. We thought we'd won the war in Iraq and killed off Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and yet IS rose from that because we didn't count on the original collateral damage radicalising people in the first place.

Also it's not woefully ignorant. I didn't suggest for one second that there weren't Christians, Jews, secularists, or any other group in the middle east but what I did suggest, and what we ALL know to be true is that it's the current hotbed for all the current tension and terrorism and the whole area is a complete mess. Various different groups with various different agendas fighting for and against our allies. The very fact that IS kill more Muslims than anyone else does shows the scale of the problem. The ONLY option is to make the entire area a complete wasteland and then focus on the splinter cells in Europe. I didn't say it was a good option, I didn't say it's not a completely ridiculous, horrifically immoral option, I know it is, but if you want terrorism to stop you kill the infection, kill the cancer at it's source and don't stop until you make sure everything is gone. Cancer can crop up again and IS are a cancer just as extremist terrorism is full stop. Kill it all off.

I'm also well aware of the irony of who we're best buddies with. We should never deal with Saudi Arabia, they're at the very heart of the problem, they provide huge amounts of backing to the people we're fighting. Funding and backing with weapons and intel to so called 'moderate terrorists' is bullshit, we should be wiping them out along with the ones we're fighting against but of course the political agendas are all still based around Russia versus the US so these countries and these groups are caught in the crossfire of the proxy cold war. The West backed Bin Laden and co in the 80's to fight against the Soviets and look where that got us and yet we won't learn our lessons whatsoever. Someone do the honourable (or dishonourable) thing and just end it all for good rather than beating around the bush. If we want to be free and safe that is what we've got to do otherwise there will ALWAYS be another group willing to kill lots of our people because they don't agree with us and our way of life.

Let's humour this crazy idea of turning the Middle East into ash and ignore the moral implications. Do you not see there being a bigger radicalisation issue if you turn the region into toast? If a reckless foreign policy in Iraq and Libya was enough to empower these groups, what the feck do you think 'turning the region into a wasteland' is going to do?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Those certain of and convicted in court ofc.
Cannot be a harsh enough penalty in terms of pain before death.

What about those people who sit on death row for years only to be exonerated? Is their conviction justification for the their imprisonment?

There are no certainties. This is why torture and all that goes with it is never justified (apart from it happening to be completely barbaric).

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So European countries are just getting lumped in together? There's no specific demands or statements from whoever planned this? I'm confused about what they want.

ISIS want to establish a global Islamic state. Everyone, including Muslims, that won't subscribe to their ideology has to die. They want to provoke war with their enemies as they believe it is their destiny to triumph through a series of wars to establish the Islamic state like Mohamed did.

They have higher priority targets like the West and corrupt pseudo Islamic governments in the Middle East but they are encouraging any want to be Jihadists to carry out operations anywhere that does not conform to the Caliphate.

 

[Dans]

Might be due to its location in Europe? Right next to Germany, France and the UK, 3 big hitters in Europe. Good way of causing panic when it's happening in a country right next to you.

I doubt that plays much of a role - but it's obviously a prime target with the EU institutions and NATO both present.

There's a mass of disaffected 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants there - not that well "integrated" (I don't really like that word), with bleak prospects. Belgium saw the most young kids per head of population heading to Syria of all the European countries.

 

[Ødegaard]

What about those people who sit on death row for years only to be exonerated? Is their conviction justification for the their imprisonment?

There are no certainties. This is why torture and all that goes with it is never justified (apart from it happening to be completely barbaric).

Terrorists tend to claim that the stuff is done by them. If they think that's cool, I'd take their word for it and give them the punishment as well.
They've also been identified a lot of times while committing the crime.

I'm not saying that it should be a thing you punish every bad criminal with (and as a leftie, I'm naturally in agreement with you here), but terrorists you can prove to be just that, sure.