EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?

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Chorley1974 said:
I don't think we really know how many people are in the country, as in how illegals there are. If I go to my local restaurants there are always some illegals working there.
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But what's that got to do with the EU and I'm pretty sure illegal immigrants are not a new thing since the UK joined the EU
 
Chorley1974 said:
I don't think we really know how many people are in the country, as in how illegals there are. If I go to my local restaurants there are always some illegals working there.
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Most developed countries should have services that provide fairly good estimations of how many illegal immigrants there are. It's not like they're hiding in closets. Being illegal is not the same as being invisible.
 
Chorley1974 said:
I don't think we really know how many people are in the country, as in how illegals there are. If I go to my local restaurants there are always some illegals working there.
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No-one ever counts the illegals. A reasonable estimate is apparently about 1,000,000.

Twice the population of Manchester and enough to fill at least 250,000 houses.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But what's that got to do with the EU and I'm pretty sure illegal immigrants are not a new thing since the UK joined the EU
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They were never allowed to collect en masse in Northern France and attack lorries and their drivers before the EU existed. They were never allowed to traipse through Europe at will and unhindered before the EU existed. They never travelled in droves from Africa and sailed over to Europe before the EU existed, nor did many find it easy to get visas into the UK/Europe before the EU existed.
 
Red Defence said:
They were never allowed to collect en masse in Northern France and attack lorries and their drivers before the EU existed. They were never allowed to traipse through Europe at will and unhindered before the EU existed. They never travelled in droves from Africa and sailed over to Europe before the EU existed, nor did many find it easy to get visas into the UK/Europe before the EU existed.
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Is Northern France in the UK?
What about all those immigrants in the 50s and 60s
What about all those fleeing the Nazis in Europe before the war
What about all the slaves the British brought to the UK and then gave them their freedom
What about all the Scots Welsh and Irish that have settled in dear olde englande
What about those pesky Spanish with their Armada - god save Francis Drake
What the those Norman conquerors
What about those damned Vikings
What about those damned Romans

Damned foreigners, I blame the EU
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Correct- so why is it a problem for the UK, it's a problem for France
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There massing there whilst they wait for the opportunity to get to the UK illegally. Hollande doesn't care that they're a problem in France as well because they don't want to stay in France. We can't rely on Hollande to do anything useful except link arms with and cuddle up to Merkel.
 
Red Defence said:
There massing there whilst they wait for the opportunity to get to the UK illegally. Hollande doesn't care that they're a problem in France as well because they don't want to stay in France. We can't rely on Hollande to do anything useful except link arms with and cuddle up to Merkel.
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But why do they want to go to the UK. Why not stay in France or any other country in Europe.
 
Red Defence said:
In an interview I saw they said they don't want to stay in France or claim asylum anywhere, they want to work illegally in the UK.
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Because the Uk has a reputation for handing out free houses, benefits , money etc etc , they all think the UK is an El Dorado - why has the UK this reputation - this is a UK national problem not because of the EU.
I don't rate any of the leading politicians in France either, Sarkozy, Hollande or Le Pen, I have no political persuasion either.
What do you want Hollande to do anyway, open the gates and say go on let the Uk deal with it, after all it's because they think the Uk are going to give them all these goodies that these people are in Northern France but it's France that have to deal with it.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Because the Uk has a reputation for handing out free houses, benefits , money etc etc , they all think the UK is an El Dorado - why has the UK this reputation - this is a UK national problem not because of the EU.
I don't rate any of the leading politicians in France either, Sarkozy, Hollande or Le Pen, I have no political persuasion either.
What do you want Hollande to do anyway, open the gates and say go on let the Uk deal with it, after all it's because they think the Uk are going to give them all these goodies that these people are in Northern France but it's France that have to deal with it.
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How did they get into France in the first place?
 
Red Defence said:
How did they get into France in the first place?
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There are probably many different reasons or methods but once they are in the Schengen area then there are(or were) no border controls. But the UK aren't in the Schengen area and do have border controls so this is why I don't understand why the UK say we want control of our borders back, the Uk still has them
 
Paul the Wolf said:
There are probably many different reasons or methods but once they are in the Schengen area then there are(or were) no border controls. But the UK aren't in the Schengen area and do have border controls so this is why I don't understand why the UK say we want control of our borders back, the Uk still has them
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Pity you haven't got border controls. They wouldn't be so tempted to come over if you had. No border controls in Europe means the world can just trundle through at will. Poor security for Europe that.
 
Red Defence said:
Pity you haven't got border controls. They wouldn't be so tempted to come over if you had. No border controls in Europe means the world can just trundle through at will. Poor security for Europe that.
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But there is a border control somewhere on the edge of the Schengen area which they have breached. But there'll always be and always have been ways of people crossing borders even when the controls were in place. People also stowing away in ships or containers or in hidden compartments in trucks or whatever.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But there is a border control somewhere on the edge of the Schengen area which they have breached. But there'll always be and always have been ways of people crossing borders even when the controls were in place. People also stowing away in ships or containers or in hidden compartments in trucks or whatever.
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Yes but it's so much easier now isn't it. If the world was a safe place it wouldn't matter, but it isn't so it does matter.
 
Red Defence said:
Yes but it's so much easier now isn't it. If the world was a safe place it wouldn't matter, but it isn't so it does matter.
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The world's never been a safe place but is probably safer now than it has ever been, particularly Europe. Currently this is undoubtedly the longest time by far that some European state hasn't been at war or conflict with another European state. The benefit of European people living working and understanding with each other.

I would not be opposed to border controls being reintroduced because we are relying on another country's border controls to control our borders in a way. The UK don't have this problem though , they are responsible for their own borders
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The world's never been a safe place but is probably safer now than it has ever been, particularly Europe. Currently this is undoubtedly the longest time by far that some European state hasn't been at war or conflict with another European state. The benefit of European people living working and understanding with each other.

I would not be opposed to border controls being reintroduced because we are relying on another country's border controls to control our borders in a way. The UK don't have this problem though , they are responsible for their own borders
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Yes, but we have little say who comes through them.
 
Red Defence said:
If anyone comes through with a European passport then we have to accept them.

(There's nothing safe about Europe at the moment. No-one can possibly say that Belgium and France are safer than they have ever been. There's been 3 bomb attacks in the last few months).
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They're still pretty safe. Portugal is a tiny country, yet in a year we have twice more deaths on the road than all terrorist attacks in Western Europe for the past 5 years combined. We can't lose perspective on this stuff. It's scary, violent, but a lot more people died victims of terror in the 80's and 90's.
 
Made
Red Defence said:
If anyone comes through with a European passport then we have to accept them.

(There's nothing safe about Europe at the moment. No-one can possibly say that Belgium and France are safer than they have ever been. There's been 3 bomb attacks in the last few months).
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What about the IRA bombing mainland UK in the past? One of the reasons the EU was founded was because 2 World Wars were started in Europe.
 
Red Defence said:
If anyone comes through with a European passport then we have to accept them.
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If anyone comes with a European passport they're not an illegal immigrant, you have a similar right to visit or got to live in their country if you like. I'd suggest you exercise that right because it will open your eyes both to how nice some other countries can be and how far from Utopia Britain actually is.

Why do so many migrants come to the UK, it's not the rest of Europe pointing them in our direction and giving them a shove no matter how much you might like to think it is, so what draws them in?

It could be our media which on a daily basis leads them to believe we give away houses, healthcare and wads of cash to all comers, ironically usually the same media that want to keep Ingerlund for the Ingerlish. The truth, we don't, we really do not give away these things. Yes, an EU legal migrant coming here to work can use our health service should they fall sick and would be supported by social services if they fell on hard times just as you or I could in any other EU country. The truth of the matter however is that legal immigrants in the UK pay far more in taxes than they draw from the welfare pot, it's our own idle tw@s who suck the country dry. The truth of the matter is UK citizens living in other EU countries take more money out of those countries combined welfare pots than EU migrants take out of the UK's. The truth of the matter is that if you are an illegal migrant you get nothing, you are scared, hunted, harried and most likely exploited by criminal gangs and modern day slavers to the point that most look to escape and get back home within a year or two of arrival.

Are we this idyllic land of milk and honey, are the streets paved with gold, is that why people want to come? Some might believe it on their way here but the reality is that we really aren't. The wages are lower than most of the rest of Western Europe, our working conditions are worse, our cost of living, particularly housing, is far higher and often the benefits you might receive from social services or health care you receive is worse. Oh and the weather is fecking terrible, the roads are in perpetual gridlock and the country's full of whinging right wing NIMBYs who believe we're the last vestige of Eden on God's green earth. Most EU migrants working here come from poorer countries in Eastern Europe and grind out a living making as much as they can to send back home or go back and live comfortably with after a few years here, all the ones I've met are miserable and can't wait to head home yet their families at home still believe they are living in the lap of luxury, probably with a private pool and chauffeur.

Apart from the press lies, and even the most desperate Romanian, Pole or Hungarian must realise that all press lie, why do they believe we are this land of luxury? We're one of the more charitable countries in the world and do genuinely try to help when there are problems, try working with a charity though and you also see how wasteful and stupid we are as a nation and why the desperate might perceive us as being spoilt. My family and I worked for several years with a team of firemen initially rebuilding an orphanage but also eventually a hospital and school in a small, desperate village in Transylvania just after Ceasescu's fall. Initially donations were building materials and the things we needed and free loan of the trucks to get things out there but when word got around there were some very strange donations, we had a full stainless steel operating theatre, medical utensils, glassware, even a fully motorized dentists chair and drills etc all unused that was donated by a national health trust because it was approaching the end of the budget year and they had not used it but could not afford to have the following year's budget trimmed if it was discovered in their stores. We had a full range of Adidas trainers that had been scheduled for shredding because the public feedback was not good and they refused to lower prices and potentially damage the brand. Most ironically we stripped out a cold war nuclear bunker underneath a hospital that was being decommissioned taking the beds we slept on in Romania, much of the food we ate and tonnes of other stuff we found good homes for. The crushed desperate people who received this aid could surely be forgiven for thinking that if 200+ Brits could give up their annual holidays for 4 or 5 years to do this work for them and our nation could afford to give away so much stuff then surely our streets must be paved with gold.
 
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People still focusing on immigration to argue their point.

Good post Bury, as you said, people should try living in other eu countries to see how rubbish and uneuropean the uk is. and with that in mind, if uk is so unlike countries in the eu, why bother to stay?

Ah yes, trade
 
NinjaFletch said:
They don't?
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Sssh, Nigel and his chums rely on people feeling like they're under siege from the marauding hordes parked on our doorstep at Calais.

As someone who drives past the sad diaspora of barely human existence drifting alongside the A16 in Calais most weeks I know they're not really marauding except on cue from the Mail's cameramen. The main problems there that pushed it onto the pages of the UK press were caused by protesting French workers whose money grubbing bosses were laying them off and rationalizing the ferry routes, a right French workers have but that British workers had taken away in the early 80s.

Ironically travelling back a couple of weeks ago I picked up a German hitchhiker who was giving up her summer holidays from her medical studies to join a team of UK doctors who are providing medical assistance to the people stranded in "the jungle", which kind of highlights the charity point I was making again.
 
Bury Red said:
Why do so many migrants come to the UK, it's not the rest of Europe pointing them in our direction and giving them a shove no matter how much you might like to think it is, so what draws them in?
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Mostly a combination of higher wages and availability of jobs. The language helps too. As there are large communities from all over the world already here, new immigrants often have relatives or people they know to help them find places to live, work or study, still feel part of their own community, and be unafraid of such a big move.

https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate
 
Stanley Road said:
People still focusing on immigration to argue their point.

Good post Bury, as you said, people should try living in other eu countries to see how rubbish and uneuropean the uk is. and with that in mind, if uk is so unlike countries in the eu, why bother to stay?

Ah yes, trade
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We've been through Trade - concluded Leave's argument does not stand up

We've been through Law - concluded Leave's argument does not stand up

Now we've been through Immigration - concluded Leave's argument does not stand up

Next....
 
712 said:
Mostly a combination of higher wages and availability of jobs. The language helps too. As there are large communities from all over the world already here, new immigrants often have relatives or people they know to help them find places to live, work or study, still feel part of their own community, and be unafraid of such a big move.

https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate
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I'm not saying that Britain doest take a large portion of migrants (for whatever reason) but the idea that we take an exceptionally large number (compared to other EU countries anyway) is largely a myth.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'm not saying that Britain doest take a large portion of migrants (for whatever reason) but the idea that we take an exceptionally large number (compared to other EU countries anyway) is largely a myth.
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Agreed, but to people who don't travel in the rest of Europe and see just how diverse the ethnic and national mix is everywhere these days they will only hark back to the days when a foreign voice was seldom heard on our shores and the only thing disturbing the song of the lark was the twhack of leather on willow and the gentle chinking of the ice in the Pimm's glass. We're a nation where sadly a great many of our population are still stuck in the 1940s or 50s where the common people did not travel overseas or mingle with Johnny foreigner, or when they do it's en masse to Benidorm where they only mingle with other Brits, drink English beer and eat fish and chips. Hell, when I was accepted into a University in France in the early 90s my Mum urged me to check it was OK with my Grandfather who had expressed concern, he finally agreed it would be Ok for me to go so long as I didn't speak to any of them Frenchies.

I don't think @712 is wrong either in that the English language, relatively high wages compared with eastern and southern Europe and the availability of jobs that many locals will not do does make us an attractive destination, although I would argue that the salary table there is skewed by the top end salaries in the UK. If the figures were corrected to reflect people in similar jobs across Europe we would drop closer to Italy and Spain. I have junior Engineers reporting to me in France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Hungary and Slovakia and only the Hungarians and Slovakians earn less than I do despite my salary being at least 30% more than the industry norm for a 20 year experienced Civil Engineer whilst all of them have shorter working weeks and more holiday allowance than I do.
 
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Stanley Road said:
So Bury, why haven't any of those good things in your last paragraph been adopted by a uk in the EU? Probably cos we're not really in it, just a toe in the pool.
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Because our politicians side with big business in ensuring we remain low paid, overworked and without union representation that would ensure we were at least brought up to the same working standards as our European counterparts. It's got nothing to do with the EU who have done everything they can to ensure workers have rights but has everything to do with Thatcher's legacy that unionisation is anti business which has led successive governments both blue and red to refuse to sign up to many of the EUs common sense workers protections, despite the glaring examples of our businesses struggling whilst our European neighbours in their unionised plants prosper.

We have a press that keep us believing we have it best and that pro unionists would drag us back to the winter of discontent whilst our government sign deals with the Chinese and others to circumvent EU regulations and shaft our remaining industry. We have a toe in the pool but Cameron and his ilk aren't considering taking a dip, they're just measuring the currents to know how far they can connive and cheat the UK populace and keep the common man down. Do I think we should stay in the EU because Cameron wants us to, hell no. I know we need to stay in the EU to prevent Cameron and Osborne selling the rest of Britain off on the cheap and hiding the profits in their offshore shell funds, it's the only form of legislation that stops the tories and business in Britain from doing exactly as they please.
 
There have been riots in France in the past couple of days but mainstream in the UK media fail to report it or report a watered down version well after it has all calmed down. You can bet this is because of the upcoming referendum. Know one needs to be reminded the EU is actually in turmoil as it might benefit the leave campaign. You may also notice any reports or images of migrants coming over have all but disappeared from our tv screens now.

With media blackouts on anything negative about the EU and the non stop scare mongering coming from the remain side that is constantly drilled into peoples subconscious I can see this swaying many of the undecided to vote remain.
 
They took our houses.

They took our roads.

They took our hospital beds.

They took our GPs.

They took our school places.

They took our jobs.

They took our taxes.

Next they'll take our daughters.

---

Project Scapegoat.

---

I sadly think vote leave will win by a slim margin and it could be an insane decade or two. Surely Scotland who seem to want to remain would then be far more likely to vote independence? If so this could cause the break up of the union subsequently leading to English politics being dominated by the tories and UKIP.

I don't mind because i'm curious as to what would happen but then i'm not somebody in poverty or close to it, this could potentially be horrible for a lot of people who are struggling.


Humans always want to blame somebody, now it's the immigrants. You hear it in the pubs, the troubles of this country are blamed on the immigrants when the facts suggest that isn't really the case or at the least there is a very plausible argument that isn't the case.

But humans love a good scapegoat.
 
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