EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

[BringNaniBack]

What will always amaze me is that the UKIP have one seat out of 650 in the UK parliament and 22/73 seats as MEPs - at least Farage and co. will be voting themselves out of their cushy jobs

Wow you have hit the nail of the head there. Maybe that's because they actually care about this country rather than just their cushy jobs like so many other politicians.

 

[Rams]

I think it's more a Franco-German thing than just a German thing. Though it is becoming clearer and clearer where the dominant power is.

As an example I would look at the wrangles over CAP. The UK is correct over this policy, vested interests in France and Germany will not accept it and block the UK and I think the wider EU interest really blatantly.

With regards to the leave policy on migrants, I'm sure whatever it is, it wouldn't work that much better than the EU one and if I vote for leave it won't be because of immigration.

The problem you have though Rams is that whatever the policy it would be a British one looking to British national interest which the EU does not do and for many that would be enough of a reason the vote leave.

What??? You mean that's an example of Germany (and France) ruling the EU? On that basis it would be Britain who are the ones trying to rule the EU because it's Britain who is the biggest culprit when it comes to 'vested' interests.
Every country within the EU tries to look after their own interests. That does not mean it is not in Britains best interest to remain in the EU.
For Britain to leave the EU will be a disaster. To distangle itself from the common market will be a very destructive and painful process which will cause irreversible harm. Leaving the EU will isolate Britain and almost certainly lead to a break-up of the United Kingdom. And that's just for starters!

 

[Rams]

And? It is the EU who has labeled them as Presidents not anyone else.

Do you know how organizations work? Have you ever sat on a board or committee? Even your local football club will have a chairman / president...

 

[NinjaFletch]

What is up with you!

No, I didn't know the bloke's and I probably won't remember his name a week from now either because I have no need to remember it. I was merely asking if anyone recognised him from the vid and up you popped, feet first, trying the put downs. You're still trying them now. Get's nowhere does it so give it a rest for all our sakes.

I'm sorry you think I've been trying to 'put you down' by telling you to read up on a topic you're apparently interested and offering to tell you who the person was (under the mistaken assumption that your source was good enough to not get basic information wrong). I didn't realise that attempts to inform discussion caused such anger within you.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And? It is the EU who has labeled them as Presidents not anyone else.

Think you should check what the word president means

 

[NinjaFletch]

Wow you have hit the nail of the head there. Maybe that's because they actually care about this country rather than just their cushy jobs like so many other politicians.

Oh come on, even the most ardent Brexiter can admit that UKIP MEPs are scroungers who never show up and don't do anything, but collect their pay check every month. They're as patriotic as my left toe.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Wow you have hit the nail of the head there. Maybe that's because they actually care about this country rather than just their cushy jobs like so many other politicians.

They only turn up to vote what is it 62% of the time, really patriotic

 

[BringNaniBack]

Do you know how organizations work? Have you ever sat on a board or committee? Even your local football club will have a chairman / president...

Think you should check what the word president means

Sorry what is your point? I never made any argument about EU presidents or what they do. NinjaFletch asked me a question about a video I had posted and I replied with the details of the current EU 'Presidents'. Perhaps you should read the previous posts before going off on some random tangent.

 

[Red Defence]

I'm sorry you think I've been trying to 'put you down' by telling you to read up on a topic you're apparently interested and offering to tell you who the person was (under the mistaken assumption that your source was good enough to not get basic information wrong). I didn't realise that attempts to inform discussion caused such anger within you.

OK.

 

[Rams]

Sorry what is your point? I never made any argument about EU presidents or what they do. NinjaFletch asked me a question about a video I had posted and I replied with the details of the current EU 'Presidents'. Perhaps you should read the previous posts before going off on some random tangent.

Apologies if I gave the impression I was having a go out you personally. I was irritated by the utter crap spouted in those video's.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Sorry what is your point? I never made any argument about EU presidents or what they do. NinjaFletch asked me a question about a video I had posted and I replied with the details of the current EU 'Presidents'. Perhaps you should read the previous posts before going off on some random tangent.

As Rams said it's the rubbish from the videos that winds people up, you're the one promoting them

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

What??? You mean that's an example of Germany (and France) ruling the EU? On that basis it would be Britain who are the ones trying to rule the EU because it's Britain who is the biggest culprit when it comes to 'vested' interests.
Every country within the EU tries to look after their own interests. That does not mean it is not in Britains best interest to remain in the EU.
For Britain to leave the EU will be a disaster. To distangle itself from the common market will be a very destructive and painful process which will cause irreversible harm. Leaving the EU will isolate Britain and almost certainly lead to a break-up of the United Kingdom. And that's just for starters!

Only by being right, which we have been repeatedly about many of the most important policies. You don't think it matters whether a policy is correct and workable only how many self interested parties you can get to vote for it. That sums up the problem in a nutshell. The EU is being killed in world market terms because of weak thinking like this.

It might be that the UK interests differ from the rest of the EU's to such an extent that being in the minority is more detrimental than being outside and acting for those interests directly.

I don't really care if the UK breaks up either Rams as I think its in the North of England's best interests for Scotland to leave.

I don't think it will be a disaster if the UK leaves, I find that threat unpersuasive and a sign of weakness in the remain argument just as the threat of EU apocalypse if we vote to remain is a weakness in the leave argument.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Apologies if I gave the impression I was having a go out you personally. I was irritated by the utter crap spouted in those video's.

No worries but the clip that the president argument came from was mainly just various politicians talking about the EU. Rather than some random Brexiteer talking crap. They are obviously pro Brexit videos though, I wasn't pretending they were anything else.

As Rams said it's the rubbish from the videos that winds people up, you're the one promoting them

Ok Paul, use the same reason if you like but you seem to jump down everyone's throat as soon as they dare to criticise the EU. Doubt you even watched the videos lol.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Im not watching those videos until Nick has checked them for bias.

 

[Red Defence]

For Britain to leave the EU will be a disaster. To distangle itself from the common market will be a very destructive and painful process which will cause irreversible harm. Leaving the EU will isolate Britain and almost certainly lead to a break-up of the United Kingdom. And that's just for starters!

Can you explain why you think it will be such a disaster.

 

[Rams]

Only by being right, which we have been repeatedly about many of the most important policies. You don't think it matters whether a policy is correct and workable only how many self interested parties you can get to vote for it. That sums up the problem in a nutshell. The EU is being killed in world market terms because of weak thinking like this.

It might be that the UK interests differ from the rest of the EU's to such an extent that being in the minority is more detrimental than being outside and acting for those interests directly.

I don't really care if the UK breaks up either Rams as I think its in the North of England's best interests for Scotland to leave.

I don't think it will be a disaster if the UK leaves, I find that threat unpersuasive and a sign of weakness in the remain argument just as the threat of EU apocalypse if we vote to remain is a weakness in the leave argument.

I don't think the EU is being killed in market terms, far from it. It's biggest strength is it's single market, allowing member states free access to the single market, as well as allowing other major economies favorable terms to enter the market, and thus creating many opportunities which in turn means jobs & investment for the member states.

 

[Rams]

Can you explain why you think it will be such a disaster.

Mainly because removing itself from the single market will be extremely destructive and Britain will lose influence within Europe as well as outside Europe. I can explain specific procedural and administrative issues needed to be tackled, but I'll be here all night. Then of course the impact on the economy, firms will leave Britain, plants like the Nissan factory in the North East will be closed and it is more than likely London will lose it's status as the no1 financial market in Europe. Again, I could go on all night.

 

[Kasper]

Varoufakis was also worth listening to. It's easy to see why he was "not welcome" during Greece's negotiations with the EU. He's shown them up for what they are in this vid.

Well that's the same Varoufakis who advises not to vote leave, see here:

 

[Stanley Road]

Good thread turns into petty squable shocker

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Ok Paul, use the same reason if you like but you seem to jump down everyone's throat as soon as they dare to criticise the EU. Doubt you even watched the videos lol.

I did force myself to watch over half the video - the tirade by Farage to the ex-president of the European Council Van Rompuy was embarrassing.
I jump down peoples throat when people falsify facts or conveniently misinform people - everyone knows the EU is not perfect but with all it's faults it is by far the best option for the UK at present unless one happens to be a xenophobic imperialist with their head in the sand.

Brexit makes you feel like you're trying to be sold a second hand car by a dodgy car salesman, you know darned well that you'll get 5 miles down the road and the wheels will fall off, but he'll keep on trying to convince you it's a much better option than the car you currently own.

 

[Stanley Road]

I wonder if anybody that feels really passionate to remain, voted Tory? The party that was prepared to give it all up. The Party that has provoked bitter debate and scare mongering on both sides.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

So what are the policies then, taking people from Syria? How would this work in practice? What about the logistics?

You have asylum processing centres at the UN camps in the region, from where successful applicants are flown to host countries in Europe and elsewhere. First and foremost, the emphasis should be on the most vulnerable persons or groups, rather than a cruder combination of desperation and wealth.

Merkel's decision has nothing to do with the EU, nor do I personally it was a good idea even if it was based upon well intended humanitarian grounds.

Given Germany's geographical position, and the existence of Schengen, there is no way that it couldn't involve the wider European Union.

I have a lot of criticism of the EU. But personally I think EU is in Europe's best interest and I'm 100% convinced it's in Britain's best interests to remain in the EU. I'm also convinced the migrant crisis would be far far worse if there was no cooperation between countries as is now possible within the EU.
The migrant crisis cannot be laid upon the EU. The EU did not cause the civil war in Syria, invade Iraq or topple the regime in Libya. The EU did not cause the Palestinian question. The EU did not colonise large parts of the World and draw lines in the sand for country borders when it left.

What point is there in concerns and if the institution itself is not reformable to a positive end? Britain finds itself at a fork in the road, it can either acknowledge its differences and leave, or bury them for a generation. Many British Remainers are pursuing a somewhat dishonest line in this regard, for they maintain the perception that a two-tier form of EU membership will do justice to either the UK or centralising forces like the Franco-Germans. Boris Johnson was clear on this during an interview with the Spectator last week; he was exploring the longer term implications of a win for Remain, and how certain party policies would no longer be justifiable.

We shall have to agree to disagree with regard to its culpability for the migrant crisis. On the one hand, a continental organisation such as the EU should have a regard for the integrity of its borders (including any unrest taking place there); on the other, decisions to cease funding for Libyan rescue ships and deals with Turkey, have been grave derelictions of its purported ideals. By whichever measure you examine these past years, the EU has not lived up to the demands of the job.

Cooperation is most definitely in Europe's best interests, i agree with that wholeheartedly, just not through an ever greedy system that has escaped its leash.

 

[Stanley Road]

Ah Schengen, closed borders for immigrants

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Sterling's strengthening, Leave must have had a bad couple of days
only kidding

 

[Stanley Road]

Good, no one in europe can afford our goods. Get out

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I did force myself to watch over half the video - the tirade by Farage to the ex-president of the European Council Van Rompuy was embarrassing.
I jump down peoples throat when people falsify facts or conveniently misinform people - everyone knows the EU is not perfect but with all it's faults it is by far the best option for the UK at present unless one happens to be a xenophobic imperialist with their head in the sand.

Brexit makes you feel like you're trying to be sold a second hand car by a dodgy car salesman, you know darned well that you'll get 5 miles down the road and the wheels will fall off, but he'll keep on trying to convince you it's a much better option than the car you currently own.

Completely unbiased and the voice of reason.

Somehow the EU remainers like Paul seem to take it as a personal affront to even contemplate leaving. Get a grip it probably won't happen and even if it does none of those accusations are true about the vast majority of the UK. I'd be more worried about the rising vote for the National Font in France if I lived there and was genuinely concerned about rising xenophobia.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Completely unbiased and the voice of reason.

Somehow the EU remainers like Paul seem to take it as a personal affront to even contemplate leaving. Get a grip it probably won't happen and even if it does none of those accusations are true about the vast majority of the UK. I'd be more worried about the rising vote for the National Font in France if I lived there and was genuinely concerned about rising xenophobia.

Why do people keep saying that I have some sort of vested interest in this issue, I don't for the umpteenth time. Just my opinion that Leave are wrong.
As the reasons the "vast majority" who want to leave I still don't know what they are - as it appears not be to do with economics, laws or immigrants .

As for the NF - yes French people are also fed up with immigration but at least they say so instead of this masquerade in the UK.
However, The NF will not get into power in France any more than the UKIP will in the UK, they are both economically inept.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Why do people keep saying that I have some sort of vested interest in this issue, I don't for the umpteenth time. Just my opinion that Leave are wrong.
As the reasons the "vast majority" who want to leave I still don't know what they are - as it appears not be to do with economics, laws or immigrants .

As for the NF - yes French people are also fed up with immigration but at least they say so instead of this masquerade in the UK.
However, The NF will not get into power in France any more than the UKIP will in the UK, they are both economically inept.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36286255

I think you are like this guy from ABBA.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36286255

I think you are like this guy from ABBA.

Probably to a certain extent, I don't disagree with what he said.

But also I hate the blatant untruths, not saying both sides don't tell porkies but Leave are unbelievable. Just from a logical standpoint, Brexit will be a big mistake, it's all pie in the sky.

 

[Rams]

You have asylum processing centres at the UN camps in the region, from where successful applicants are flown to host countries in Europe and elsewhere. First and foremost, the emphasis should be on the most vulnerable persons or groups, rather than a cruder combination of desperation and wealth.




Given Germany's geographical position, and the existence of Schengen, there is no way that it couldn't involve the wider European Union.




What point is there in concerns and if the institution itself is not reformable to a positive end? Britain finds itself at a fork in the road, it can either acknowledge its differences and leave, or bury them for a generation. Many British Remainers are pursuing a somewhat dishonest line in this regard, for they maintain the perception that a two-tier form of EU membership will do justice to either the UK or centralising forces like the Franco-Germans. Boris Johnson was clear on this during an interview with the Spectator last week; he was exploring the longer term implications of a win for Remain, and how certain party policies would no longer be justifiable.

We shall have to agree to disagree with regard to its culpability for the migrant crisis. On the one hand, a continental organisation such as the EU should have a regard for the integrity of its borders (including any unrest taking place there); on the other, decisions to cease funding for Libyan rescue ships and deals with Turkey, have been grave derelictions of its purported ideals. By whichever measure you examine these past years, the EU has not lived up to the demands of the job.

Cooperation is most definitely in Europe's best interests, i agree with that wholeheartedly, just not through an ever greedy system that has escaped its leash.

Asylum processing centre's in war zones? Not sure if that' going to work.

The decision to allow unlimited refugiees in Germany was a German decision only, nothing to do with the EU, for humanitairian reasons. Not that I think it was a good idea mind.
Mind you, I still suspect the EU is a far more humanitarian organization and far less greedy than the Tory party or UKIP.

What ever happens to the UK there will always be conflicting interests, it's how politics & diplomacy work. Picture the scenario where the UK leaves the EU. In order to obtain those fantastic trade the UK will have to make concessions which will have a great impact on many of a British goverment's policies, just as it would do for any other country in the world.

 

[Red Defence]

Mainly because removing itself from the single market will be extremely destructive and Britain will lose influence within Europe as well as outside Europe. I can explain specific procedural and administrative issues needed to be tackled, but I'll be here all night. Then of course the impact on the economy, firms will leave Britain, plants like the Nissan factory in the North East will be closed and it is more than likely London will lose it's status as the no1 financial market in Europe. Again, I could go on all night.

That might happen but then again it might not. You seem to think it will be a destructive move to leave the EU yet others consider it would be a constructive move.

 

[Red Defence]

Why do people keep saying that I have some sort of vested interest in this issue, I don't for the umpteenth time. Just my opinion that Leave are wrong.
As the reasons the "vast majority" who want to leave I still don't know what they are - as it appears not be to do with economics, laws or immigrants .

As for the NF - yes French people are also fed up with immigration but at least they say so instead of this masquerade in the UK.
However, The NF will not get into power in France any more than the UKIP will in the UK, they are both economically inept.

It's is to do with economics, law, immigration and many other things. I can't understand why you don't understand what Leave is about, it's all over the television here and has been for months, but then again maybe it's because you don't get any English television in France....or do you?
There is no masquerade in the UK either.....we are fed up with uncontrolled immigration and we never pretend otherwise. Uncontrolled immigration benefits no-one, either here in the UK or elsewhere in the EU.

 

[NinjaFletch]

It's is to do with economics, law, immigration and many other things. I can't understand why you don't understand what Leave is about, it's all over the television here and has been for months, but then again maybe it's because you don't get any English television in France....or do you?
There is no masquerade in the UK either.....we are fed up with uncontrolled immigration and we never pretend otherwise. Uncontrolled immigration benefits no-one, either here in the UK or elsewhere in the EU.

I know you're going to get angry with me again, but have you actually read any of the data surrounding 'economics, law, immigration and many other things'? Because if you did you probably would understand why people want to Remain and have accused Leave of lying and distorting the truth. You might not agree, of course, but you'll at least see why Paul does not think they're as convincing arguments as you're making out that they are.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It's is to do with economics, law, immigration and many other things. I can't understand why you don't understand what Leave is about, it's all over the television here and has been for months, but then again maybe it's because you don't get any English television in France....or do you?
There is no masquerade in the UK either.....we are fed up with uncontrolled immigration and we never pretend otherwise. Uncontrolled immigration benefits no-one, either here in the UK or elsewhere in the EU.

Yes I can get BBC Sky and other news channels and is also reported to a much lesser extent on French TV plus of course the internet.
I don't understand what Leave are trying to say, the economic aspect are mainly falsehoods, the law aspect are mainly falsehoods and uncontrolled immigration, every time I visit the UK it is the only country in Europe where I have to spend ages in a queue to get back in my own country so there are not open borders and in any case the Uk needs immigration as has been proved by many other posters on here.

So basically it is about immigrants and Germany controlling the EU with 15.93% of the QMV.

I know I'm being naïve but let's say we all live in Leave's utopian world, and everyone told the truth, no way would the Uk public vote to leave.

 

[Rams]

That might happen but then again it might not. You seem to think it will be a destructive move to leave the EU yet others consider it would be a constructive move.

To ditangle Britain from the single market would be a destructive process by its very nature. This is not an assumption, but a necessary course action in order to leave the single market.

 

[Red Defence]

I know you're going to get angry with me again, but have you actually read any of the data surrounding 'economics, law, immigration and many other things'? Because if you did you probably would understand why people want to Remain and have accused Leave of lying and distorting the truth. You might not agree, of course, but you'll at least see why Paul does not think they're as convincing arguments as you're making out that they are.

I'm not angry with you. I accept that we disagree on the EU and we will carry on being on opposite sides but you need to accept that too. Remember also that Remain lie and distort the truth (that's Cameron's forte anyway, even when he doesn't feel threatened).

There are a large number of intelligent and influential people supporting Leave (as well as Remain...as I have tried to explain before) and if our future out of the EU was as cut and dried as you make it about to be I tend to think they might also know what you know and wouldn't be supporting Leave in the first place. The fact that they are wanting out means that our destruction is not written in stone. They may have also read the exact same data that obsesses you so much and realise that we have a very positive future outside of the EU. What makes them so wrong and you so right on this?

 

[Red Defence]

Yes I can get BBC Sky and other news channels and is also reported to a much lesser extent on French TV plus of course the internet.
I don't understand what Leave are trying to say, the economic aspect are mainly falsehoods, the law aspect are mainly falsehoods and uncontrolled immigration, every time I visit the UK it is the only country in Europe where I have to spend ages in a queue to get back in my own country so there are not open borders and in any case the Uk needs immigration as has been proved by many other posters on here.

So basically it is about immigrants and Germany controlling the EU with 15.93% of the QMV.

I know I'm being naïve but let's say we all live in Leave's utopian world, and everyone told the truth, no way would the Uk public vote to leave.

I think you're going to be surprised just how many do vote to leave.

(So how come you can get English TV but I can't get French TV?)

 

[Rams]

History is full of intelligent and influential people supporting the most idiotic ideas.

 

[Red Defence]

To ditangle Britain from the single market would be a destructive process by its very nature. This is not an assumption, but a necessary course action in order to leave the single market.

Yes, like destroying a run down shack and clearing the ground to make way for a new and better house.

History is full of intelligent and influential people supporting the most idiotic ideas.

I take it you're talking about Cameron and the Remain camp.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I think you're going to be surprised just how many do vote to leave.

(So how come you can get English TV but I can't get French TV?)

What worries me is that there will be many that vote to leave but for the wrong reasons.

Tv on satellite Astra (can't remember which one but the other one from Sky) which has all the French satellite channels ( Canal+ CanalSat) but also has all the news channels from all over the world plus German Polish and many other free channels from other countries