EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

[Bury Red]

'Managed migration' can indeed be beneficial i agree, however unmanaged immigration has simply been a vehicle for exploitation. People like yourself and Bury Red are quick to make insinuations of xenophobia and racism, yet it is your left-wing conceit which throws innocent workers to the wolves. The last decade-and-a-half has been host to wage depression and unemployment among the resident labour market, and the abuse of those brought in to take their place, but what do you care?

It's left wing conceit that has closed down our steel industry, coal industry, manufacturing industry, seen our construction industry whittled down from a few dozen blue ribbon contractors 20 years ago to 3 or 4 struggling to stay afloat? I'd say you couldn't make it up but that implies a degree of manufacture that the right wing in the UK would most likely step in to shut down.

I care enough about the plight of our workers to have petitioned the government over illegal Chinese steel imports, spoken out at conferences and ICE meetings about these issues and to have written our company policy on the modern slavery bill and labour exploitation and how we ensure not only our own house, but that of all the main contractors we work for and subcontractors we might employ is in order.

I'm also fairly careful with the terms racism and xenophobia as personal epithets but am more than happy to apply them to Farage and the right wing idiots who espouse bigoted and xenophobic lies on a daily basis having fought against these sort of idiots for over 30 years as a left wing activist and former member of red wedge, anti fascist action etc.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Nick, come on, we both know that has the sum total of feck all to do with immigration.

On the contrary, unmanaged mass immigration has been a contributing factor to all of those.

It's left wing conceit that has closed down our steel industry, coal industry, manufacturing industry, seen our construction industry whittled down from a few dozen blue ribbon contractors 20 years ago to 3 or 4 struggling to stay afloat? I'd say you couldn't make it up but that implies a degree of manufacture that the right wing in the UK would most likely step in to shut down.

What relevance has any of that to what i said?

I care enough about the plight of our workers to have petitioned the government over illegal Chinese steel imports, spoken out at conferences and ICE meetings about these issues and to have written our company policy on the modern slavery bill and labour exploitation and how we ensure not only our own house, but that of all the main contractors we work for and subcontractors we might employ is in order.

I'm also fairly careful with the terms racism and xenophobia as personal epithets but am more than happy to apply them to Farage and the right wing idiots who espouse bigoted and xenophobic lies on a daily basis having fought against these sort of idiots for over 30 years as a left wing activist and former member of red wedge, anti fascist action etc.

The left has long professed a support for unmanaged immigration in spite of the consequences for those involved. Whilst your personal actions may well been very commendable, the outcome more generally has not been representative of those ideals.

I don't believe i have ever seen you recognise the legitimacy of any argument calling for reduced or managed immigration policy, even on a local or regional level. More often that not you just reach for the same old right/left cliches.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

There are two points about immigration.

1. Research shows EU immigration is a net benefit - they tend to be younger people who arrive, work, pay tax and have low use of support services such as the NHS, and then leave again.

2. More than half our immigration comes from outside the EU, we are in complete control of that, and have not slowed it down at all. In general, this immigration tends to produce a net cost to the country, that is, people who contribute less than they cost us.

Whichever side of the EU debate you are on, the tory in charge has done nothing about nor proposed any reduction of immigration from outside the EU. Even those moaning about immigration. Leaving the EU would have no effect on the immigration that actually costs us. In fact it would likely go up (Boris and Farage talk about focusing more on commonwealth citizens for immigration).

I think that there is an issue with immigration, and the left, who I normally favour, are misguided in not admitting as much. I get its probably a localised thing, someone in the south east competing for jobs with endless immigrants has a very different view on the subject to someone from somewhere like Shrewsbury where they see very few. Tackling it needs a consensus across the EU to address wage imbalance at the bottom end from country to country, which is primarily why so many arrive here and Germany. Corbyn mentioned talking to other groups about a normalised minimum wage across the EU, which is a fine idea if it can be achieved, and probably the best way of tackling the issue.

 

[moxdevil]

So going by those that favour remaining in Europe, Europe is petty and vindictive and will do all that it can to make the UK pay for leaving. Not exactly a glowing endorsement for Europe.

 

[711]

I've not checked the bookies odds for a bit, they have moved, best Remain is now 3/10, best Leave is 3/1.

I don't know if this is an Obama thing or not, a bit strange if it is because all the headlines said his comments had backfired, yet the weight of money bet says otherwise. Obama might be nothing to do with it of course, I'm just speculating.

 

[Bury Red]

What relevance has any of that to what i said?

In your own words

yet it is your left-wing conceit which throws innocent workers to the wolves.

I'm simply pointing out that the plight of our resident labour force has far more to do with the axe of the right wing than any conceit you perceive from the left

The left has long professed a support for unmanaged immigration in spite of the consequences for those involved. Whilst your personal actions may well been very commendable, the outcome more generally has not been representative of those ideals.

I don't believe i have ever seen you recognise the legitimacy of any argument calling for reduced or managed immigration policy, even on a local or regional level. More often that not you just reach for the same old right/left cliches.

I do believe that on the whole immigration is beneficial to the host nation, it is only when you mismanage the people who are already here, be it through exploitation, ghettoisation or neglect that the whole of society suffers. I've no problem with us managing it through the same legal channels that other nations manage our freedom to travel there on business or leisure, or indeed to emigrate (I've lived in 4 other host countries and worked in a great many more), I just object to us believing we're some eutopia that everyone is clamouring to invade and that as such there should be one rule for us going everywhere else and another for everyone wanting to come here.

My main problem is when I hear the same old lies about "coming over hear, stealing our jobs, using our hospitals and schools" time and again like an interminable loop from "Til Death Do Us Part". The right wing have been peddling the same racist claptrap my entire life with only the nationality of the invading party varying. We get it, the right wing want to build a wall and preferably have the foreign labour build it and stay on the other side as they do so but that sort of closed minded rhetoric has no place in the modern world.

 

[Ubik]

I've not checked the bookies odds for a bit, they have moved, best Remain is now 3/10, best Leave is 3/1.

I don't know if this is an Obama thing or not, a bit strange if it is because all the headlines said his comments had backfired, yet the weight of money bet says otherwise. Obama might be nothing to do with it of course, I'm just speculating.

They didn't backfire at all, they had the news cycle on "back of the line" and "5-10 years" for days, caused Boris to show himself up again as a massive prick and generally have Leave not knowing what to do next. Job done.

 

[711]

They didn't backfire at all, they had the news cycle on "back of the line" and "5-10 years" for days, caused Boris to show himself up again as a massive prick and generally have Leave not knowing what to do next. Job done.

I appreciated his comments personally, and think he was quite entitled to reply to those who have repeatedly been claiming to know what would happen to our trading terms with the US in the event of leaving.

I'm a bit wary of the word irony, it's so often misused I'm not sure what it means myself any more, but I did find it ironic that our newspapers slammed Obama with a 'nothing to do with foreigners, keep your nose out' line, when the same newspapers are owned by foreigners who don't live in the UK or pay UK taxes.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I've not checked the bookies odds for a bit, they have moved, best Remain is now 3/10, best Leave is 3/1.

.

That's reassuring, bookies rarely get it wrong, at least not everybody in the UK has gone gaga

 

[devilish]

So going by those that favour remaining in Europe, Europe is petty and vindictive and will do all that it can to make the UK pay for leaving. Not exactly a glowing endorsement for Europe.

no they will be all smiles towards a nation who wants to pick and choose what they want and what they do not want just because erm, erm, they have Nigel Farage?

 

[devilish]

I've not checked the bookies odds for a bit, they have moved, best Remain is now 3/10, best Leave is 3/1.

I don't know if this is an Obama thing or not, a bit strange if it is because all the headlines said his comments had backfired, yet the weight of money bet says otherwise. Obama might be nothing to do with it of course, I'm just speculating.

which means?

sorry I am horrible in betting. I have never bet in all my life.

 

[Ubik]

which means?

sorry I am horrible in betting. I have never bet in all my life.

Implied probability from the odds of Remain winning is at 74%. Which about fits with the polling.

 

[devilish]

Implied probability from the odds of Remain winning is at 74%. Which about fits with the polling.

thanks mate

 

[Stanley Road]

Spot on again Bury

 

[BringNaniBack]

Implied probability from the odds of Remain winning is at 74%. Which about fits with the polling.

About fits the polling in this thread. Not anywhere else.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

You accuse others of making facile arguments but can then compare 164 land border points with 1 and keep a straight face. Did you miss the chaos the Channel Tunnel stoppages caused last year with operation stack etc? Have you been caught in Saint Pancras when they have to cancel the Eurostar and seen how fast it backs up?

Nonsense, that wasn't caused by visa problems was it? In fact isn't the point made by Brexit that the EU can't do anything very well and the migrant issue around the tunnel is evidence they are right and it happened while we are still in the EU. That's an own goal by the remainers.

 

[Revan]

About fits the polling in this thread. Not anywhere else.

If you say it too many times, you might start believing it yourself.

 

[Cheesy]

About fits the polling in this thread. Not anywhere else.

It seems pretty realistic. Remember, probability of winning doesn't correlate to exact polling figures. For example, having 55% of the vote on average in polls makes you more than 55% likely to win the actual referendum/vote itself. In the same way that if one side was 74% in the polls, they'd probably be 95+% likely to win said vote.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I think the reality is that the EU will not accept the UK to go cherry picking. The UK will cave in on matters such as immigration quota's and visa restrictions because the UK needs the EU a lot more than the EU needs the UK. The truth is that the UK lost its super power status a long time ago.

I think that if the UK votes to leave it won't cave in. I base that on the fact that the Government will have just been mandated not too and if it tries to it will be removed. The EU can pick a trade war with its biggest net export market or let calmer heads prevail. I guess we will have to wait and see if we get to find out who is right.

 

[Ubik]

It seems pretty realistic. Remember, probability of winning doesn't correlate to exact polling figures. For example, having 55% of the vote on average in polls makes you more than 55% likely to win the actual referendum/vote itself. In the same way that if one side was 74% in the polls, they'd probably be 95+% likely to win said vote.

Exactly that. Only poll analyst that got the 2015 election right, currently have Remain's likelihood to win at 79% - http://www.ncpolitics.uk/uk-eu-referendum/ - could be wrong, of course, but I put more weight behind them than any others. Certainly more than BringNaniBack's "many internet polls".

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

So going by those that favour remaining in Europe, Europe is petty and vindictive and will do all that it can to make the UK pay for leaving. Not exactly a glowing endorsement for Europe.

I assume they love us so much they can't deal with the idea we might leave. Gnashing of teeth rending clothes and everything in this thread.

 

[711]

So going by those that favour remaining in Europe, Europe is petty and vindictive and will do all that it can to make the UK pay for leaving. Not exactly a glowing endorsement for Europe.

I think Europeans will be genuinely sad if we choose to leave, but if it does happen they will then move on to focus on keeping their new EU together.

It seems the best economic argument that Leavers have is a belief that Germany will rush to a trade deal because they won't want to give up selling BMWs to us. That for me fails to understand how important political ideals are to them. They were quite willing to stall their economic progress for a decade to pay for reuniting with East Germany, and whilst the EU may not be quite the same it is analogous, they believe in it, and they will pay for it if necessary, they won't rush.

For our side it may be that we too think an opposite ideal of sovereignty and independence is worth an economic hit, but to make my mind up on that I need to know how big that hit that might be, and I'm not impressed by a Leave campaign that so far merely denies everything they don't like.

 

[Cheesy]

Exactly that. Only poll analyst that got the 2015 election right, currently have Remain's likelihood to win at 79% - http://www.ncpolitics.uk/uk-eu-referendum/ - could be wrong, of course, but I put more weight behind them than any others. Certainly more than BringNaniBack's "many internet polls".

Yeah, the percentage makes sense. Was similar at times during the Scottish referendum. Polls were generally between 55-45% either way (with No usually ahead), and because of No led more often they were still given around 80% likelihood to win.

 

[Bury Red]

Nonsense, that wasn't caused by visa problems was it? In fact isn't the point made by Brexit that the EU can't do anything very well and the migrant issue around the tunnel is evidence they are right and it happened while we are still in the EU. That's an own goal by the remainers.

It's not caused by visa problems but by the slightest interruption to service and is a fairly compelling example of how fast our single land border point can turn to shit, should have known you'd blame it on the Europeans though. The mess at Calais is no different to the situations in Greece, Turkey and at other migrant holding camps, the only difference a Brexit will make is that the authorities in Calais will have less pressure on them to contain the problem and keep the refugees off the lorries entering the Eurotunnel and ferry terminals whilst our security and border control will have to retreat to this side of the channel and deal with things here.

Deal with it I'm sure we will though and our making an utter arse of it is a cast iron guarantee, the only border controls more chaotic and less efficient than ours that I have encountered in my last 12 months of travel have been the US and Oman. Every other European airport (9 different ones on 17 occasions) plus Saudi, Egypt, Bahrain and Qatar were all at least twice as efficient as the UK and usually many times more. My longest 'kin queue in the EU passports line was well over 2 hours after a one and a half hour flight to Gatwick from Frankfurt and Heathrow's no better with at least 6 queues taking me over 1 hour even if you chose the self check electronic lanes which worked less than 50% of the time and they have now ripped out and are renewing. When I lived in Singapore I touched my thumb to a screen and the doors opened usually without me even breaking step, let alone queuing, I can only remember 2 or 3 times where there was a genuine queue there and none of them lasted beyond 20 minutes yet Heathrow's target is set at 45 minutes average which means I spend over 1 day of my life every year waiting to pass the border checks of my own frigging country yet the Remain camp seem to think we need to be more stringent. We're so fecking useless at our border control that I'm tempted to try smuggling myself in just to avoid the wasted time in the queues, I've already given up flying to meetings at our office in Frankfurt preferring to drive over via the tunnel instead since at least there I can control the majority of the door to door time and know it will be 7-8 hours rather than the 5 or 6 up to 12 hours it has taken me flying.

 

[Stanley Road]

I think the problem is Bury that people NEED to actually spend some time living in Europe to form a balanced view of things and not just read the Sun

 

[Revan]

Unsurprisingly, you are far too forgiving of Brussels in this matter. The poorest in Greece has suffered unnecessarily as a direct result of EU policies (denying them either withdrawal from the Euro or manageable loan repayments). They imposed hardship upon the most vulnerable people in that country, and all to suit a flawed currency union. What is worse still, is that they very same individuals have been dumping the migrant crisis into their laps to boot. The cheek of it is something to behold. Brussels was little better than a loan shark.

Incorrect. The poorest in Greece are suffering because Greece had insane economical polices for 50 years. They lived as good as Italians or Germans despite that they produced as much as Albanians or Bulgarians or Serbians. They lived like Germans but didn't work like Germans.

Putting the Greece crisis on EU, is like a 30 years old guy who has never worked on his life but had lived comfortably, suddenly complaining that his daddy is not giving him anymore money.

And it isn't that Greeks are starving now. They are still far better than all the surrounding countries. Just that they don't live anymore like Sweish people just because they had the luck of being the only country in that part who didn't became communists.

What do you think is the solution? I guess you would like German taxpayers to take the hit because the Greeks are too lazy to just spent as much as they produce. Which might be ironic considering that you have been bitching on this thread that UK is giving too much money to EU.

 

[Bury Red]

I think the problem is Bury that people NEED to actually spend some time living in Europe to form a balanced view of things and not just read the Sun

Problem is that if we expose Europe to too many Sun & Mail readers and UKIP voters in one go it won't be us having the referendum, it will be the EU voting unanimously for a Brfeckoff.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Incorrect. The poorest in Greece are suffering because Greece had insane economical polices for 50 years. They lived as good as Italians or Germans despite that they produced as much as Albanians or Bulgarians or Serbians. They lived like Germans but didn't work like Germans.

Putting the Greece crisis on EU, is like a 30 years old guy who has never worked on his life but had lived comfortably, suddenly complaining that his daddy is not giving him anymore money.

And it isn't that Greeks are starving now. They are still far better than all the surrounding countries. Just that they don't live anymore like Sweish people just because they had the luck of being the only country in that part who didn't became communists.

What do you think is the solution? I guess you would like German taxpayers to take the hit because the Greeks are too lazy to just spent as much as they produce. Which might be ironic considering that you have been bitching on this thread that UK is giving too much money to EU.

Additionally, Greece had all sort of economic problems due to the scandal of people not paying their taxes to the Greek government. Governments can't operate without their citizens paying their taxes.

 

[Bury Red]

Additionally, Greece had all sort of economic problems due to the scandal of people not paying their taxes to the Greek government. Governments can't operate without their citizens paying their taxes.

Or indeed EU citizens working in your country paying taxes to your government, we'd be 20% worse off in terms of our annual deficit if the EU migrants did not make the £20M net annual contribution to our coffers

 

[Adisa]

May wants us to abandon human rights treaty. Hard core Tories want to get rid of labour rights. Leave the EU and these are the kind of people you will leave us with. Pure evil.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

What do you think is the solution? I guess you would like German taxpayers to take the hit because the Greeks are too lazy to just spent as much as they produce. Which might be ironic considering that you have been bitching on this thread that UK is giving too much money to EU.

The solution was either to permit temporary withdrawal from the Euro, or the introduction of a second currency union and central bank for countries in southern Europe. What we actually occurred however, was a politically motivated mess which only increased the hardship of those in Greece. Image and ambition were prioritised over the people which the EU purports to serve. The saga represented further confirmation for Eurosceptics, and an awakening for some on the Left.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

May wants us to abandon human rights treaty. Hard core Tories want to get rid of labour rights. Leave the EU and these are the kind of people you will leave us with. Pure evil.

But what about Jezza? By the left reasoning that we must stay in Europe to be saved from the nasty Tories are they not just unwittingly admitting that Corbyn is a lame duck. And if so, why vote him to lead the Labour party in the first place?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

May wants us to abandon human rights treaty. Hard core Tories want to get rid of labour rights. Leave the EU and these are the kind of people you will leave us with. Pure evil.

Are we back to this bollocks of the UK somehow turning into North Korea post-Brexit?

May is simply trying to regain her position as a leadership contender after her disastrous choice to idiocy in joining Remain. Although i suspect that this will only make her look more daft that before.

 

[Kaos]

But what about Jezza? By the left reasoning that we must stay in Europe to be saved from the nasty Tories are they not just unwittingly admitting that Corbyn is a lame duck. And if so, why vote him to lead the Labour party in the first place?

The Tories will still have had enough time to do considerable damage.

 

[Revan]

The solution was either to permit temporary withdrawal from the Euro, or the introduction of a second currency union and central bank for countries in southern Europe. What we actually occurred however, was a politically motivated mess which only increased the hardship of those in Greece. Image and ambition were prioritised over the people which the EU purports to serve. The saga represented further confirmation for Eurosceptics, and an awakening for some on the Left.

They could have left the euro if they wanted. The only thing that would have achieved is that their new currency would have been immediately devaluated and in the end they would have been worse.

And why temporary? Just to pay the loans in their already worthless currency, and then come back, take the euro and live long and prosper. I really would have liked to see what would you have said if it was UK, not Germany, who gave those loans to Greece.

 

[Fearless]

May wants us to abandon human rights treaty. Hard core Tories want to get rid of labour rights. Leave the EU and these are the kind of people you will leave us with. Pure evil.

Better that than the faceless EU dictators who you can't even name.

 

[Bury Red]

Better that than the faceless EU dictators who you can't even name.

Just because people can't be bothered to learn their names or give the European parliament any sensible recognition doesn't make it faceless, it just makes us ignorant. We have almost as much sway in Europe as anyone bar the Germans, we have 73 seats in the parliament in Strasbourg versus France's 74 and Germany's 96. That we choose to fill 22 of those 73 seats with UKIP clowns who don't turn up, turn up to disrupt or simply act the arse is a problem of our making, not Europes.

Having lived the last 8 years in a dictatorship I can assure you that they are underrated and can be far more efficient, wealthy, comfortable and pleasant to live in than this idiotic excuse for a democracy we choose to call home.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Better that than the faceless EU dictators who you can't even name.

What are your feelings on electoral reform?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

At least Cameron, Hollande, Merkel et al are now blameless from all wrong decision making, because they were democratically voted into office, whereas all the "bad" things that were imposed upon the UK are caused by faceless EU bureaucrats - am I getting this right?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The Tories will still have had enough time to do considerable damage.

After the Tories shambolic first year of term do you really think Corbyn is so bad that the Tories could make most of our lives so much worse and he still couldn't get elected?

Wouldn't a Brexit not create the perfect platform for his success?