I follow all that reasons, and they've all had an impact on my life or the prosperity of where I live, but there are people arguing numbers, and in that sense it's failed.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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I follow all that reasons, and they've all had an impact on my life or the prosperity of where I live, but there are people arguing numbers, and in that sense it's failed.
Thought the exact same.
This is a great example of an argument being put forward almost out of desperation. I'm afraid I wouldn't vote Out in order to help Poland, Romania and Lithuania in the first place, but in reality those countries are themselves the ones most in favour of free movement. I assume that's because of the money taken back there, although I could be wrong. Another one that just doesn't convince I'm afraid.
The occupations pursued by EU vs non-EU nationals are surely of some relevant to the analysis though, as the former can be more readily taken up by the unemployed here in the UK. And businesses have been exploiting eastern Europeans for years; either by way of wage depression in a sector such as construction, or conditions more generally for foreign domestic workers. In fact one might accuse the Labour government of the time (and the Tories more recently) of neglect, for all that it professed to hold human rights dear.
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Do you mean the former rather than the latter, Nick? As for wages, see living wage. And are you proposing more regulations on working conditions? I think you'll have to get rid of the Tories first for that one.
It must be me, but I'm just finding so many of the Out arguments rubbish, even though I know they're being put by perfectly sensible people. I might be better giving it a rest for a bit.
It must be me, but I'm just finding so many of the Out arguments rubbish, even though I know they're being put by perfectly sensible people. I might be better giving it a rest for a bit.
It's not put forward out of desperation it's put forward out of common sense. If all of the trained population are working here their countries will go from bad to worse. It's just the same as the effect on us when our trained workers leave to live abroad. Of course you may be right about the money....I did hear something a while back that 25% of our currency was not in circulation here in the UK.
Indeed. This would be one of my reasons to vote out.
In the Haulage industry, we have an interesting problem. An eastern European EU company could employ eastern European drivers and do some cabotage work in the UK (within some restrictions), or work between two countries like the UK and Germany, but have to pay their drivers far less than what a UK company has to pay. The German government has started asking for any HGV driver working in Germany to prove they get more than the minimum wage, but it's a poor solution to a big problem. This is over and above the problems the haulage industry already has, where drivers can be fined hundreds of pounds for going over their EU drivers hours, potentially putting drivers well below minimum wage.
And there is a similar problem with farm-workers; especially those doing a bit of cash in hand work or paid depending on how much they pick. The minimum wage laws can't just apply to high-street shops, but to everyone. I'd also like to point out that it's no advantage to get paid cash in hand, many might not earn enough to pay tax anyway, but could potentially lose holiday pay earned.
Problems, problems everywhere. Not necessarily the EU's fault.
'Probably' have to join EFTA. Don't see why that should be necessary. Don't forget that we have a pretty strong hand too and the EU needs trade with us just as much as the other way round.
Also what is the problem with UK expats living in EU countries?
I accept your description, what I don't accept is that saving Romania's skilled workforce for them is a reason for me to vote Out.
I would consider the effect on our own workforce of course, but that wasn't your argument.
I didn't respond to your post to give you a reason to vote out. I don't think you would ever vote out because you are too determined to vote Stay.
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We have a week as feck hand. I've listed the problems already 50 times or more in this thread, but a bit of hurt will hurt the UK a lot more than it hurts the EU.
Once Article 50 is enacted, the UK has 2 years to sort agree terms with every EU country, and the EU itself, before it's kicked out. This is the same EU that takes half a lifetime to do anything. If we get kicked out, expats have potentially got no right to live in EU countries.
Anyone who is thinking about voting "Leave" needs to answer whether or not they want us to join the EFTA/EEA...
Join the EFTA/EEA: Access to the EU market, UK nationals can work in the EU, EU nationals can work in the UK, but we are still subject to EU laws and at the EUs mercy.
Don't join the EFTA/EEA: Attempt to negotiate terms with the EU for a long long time. UK citizens might not be able to work in the EU. We might lose access to the EU common market.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/01/28/uk-eu-euroscepticism-norway-model-swiss-model-efta/
It's actually a complete joke. I'm entirely unsure what to say about it. The only benefit to leaving the EU and taking the Norway model is that it saves a bit of money (nowhere near as much as some people claim (8th highest per capita in the EU)), but we lose the ability to shape the EU, veto it's stupid laws and are still subject to them.
Quite right, thanks for pointing that out, I got my EUs and non-EUs the wrong way round there.
Considering that regulation and oversight has been next to non existent for over a decade, any addition would be an improvement. Labour brought about the problem in the first place as i said, and cared little so long as the stats were pleasing to the eye. But then the ardent Europhile Left has demonstrated on numerous occasions that it lives by hypocrisy more than principle, with many abuses being excused in the name of European 'solidarity'. The EU's behaviour toward Greece, highlighted more than anything else the true nature of the organisation.
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Would we have to take the Norway model or could we take the UK model instead?
Thats quite a few 'mights' and what would be wrong with UK citizens being subject to the same rules of migrating to an EU country to work that we would apply to those EU citizens who want to come and work here?
It's quite a few mights, because we don't know. We don't know if the EU would want to 'hang, draw and quarter' us as Project Fear are saying, or if they will just go "ah well, let's be mates" as others are.
Are you not simply exchanging one form of nationalism for another? Many of the EU's supporters see their endgame as the formation of a European country after all, and the trappings of a state are already present. The circumstances surrounding an independent UK on the other hand, should dictate that we become more internationalist and outward looking than in decades.
The political landscape will be open to great changes too IMO: i would expect to see significant breakaways movements among both Tories and Labour within 10-12 years. Whereas a vote to remain only goes to solidify the position of he status quo, leaving us to stutter along while the Eurozone continues in its centralisation of powers.
I can't make my mind up about immigration either.
I do think that the democratically elected government of a country should be accountable for the decisions it makes and immigration levels should be one of the decisions it makes. I don't see why the EU is the preferred engine to make such choices as it is clearly no better at doing so than any national govt and is then dictating and anti democratic in the purest sense.
Suppose for a moment that we have reached a turning point where the levels of migration become brutally obviously damaging to countries in the EU being forced into accepting them. Is it right that the nation state is prevented from doing anything to protect its people from that damage. Isn't the first priority of a nation to protect its people?
I'm not saying this is the case yet although looking at what is happening in Greece I can understand why people are thinking it is so.
I do think that the democratically elected government of a country should be accountable for the decisions it makes and immigration levels should be one of the decisions it makes. I don't see why the EU is the preferred engine to make such choices as it is clearly no better at doing so than any national govt and is then dictating and anti democratic in the purest sense.
Suppose for a moment that we have reached a turning point where the levels of migration become brutally obviously damaging to countries in the EU being forced into accepting them. Is it right that the nation state is prevented from doing anything to protect its people from that damage. Isn't the first priority of a nation to protect its people?
I'm not saying this is the case yet although looking at what is happening in Greece I can understand why people are thinking it is so.
Hmm, I don't know what mechanisms there are to solve this type of situation. Schengen countries can reimpose borders in times of crisis or for sporting events, but stopping EU migrants is a bit different
I guess it depends whether you always fold if threatened.
I can't see much of a future inside or outside the EU for a country that does.
If you want to vote to leave the EU because you honestly don't like the way it operates and the effect it is having on your way of life, your country or whatever reason. That is your right to do so.
Voting to stay in because the EU countries are going to shaft us if we don't, for me that means it is game set and match to the outs.
If I vote to stay in but we leave and the EU does as you predict then I will have been wrong to vote to stay in.
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That's a bit of a stretch to my mind, certainly from where we are now. If we get to a point where that is an issue I'll be joining the calls for the creation of a single global government, where all matters relating to the world can be discussed behind closed doors, and enlightened decisions taken on our behalf.
But, you know, staying in is the progressive thing to do.
It shall be interesting to see if this this influences the thinking of unions in the weeks ahead. Polly Toynbee, that rather odious member of Guardian staff, was sounding rather annoyed on this weeks PW when talking about their failure to back the In campaign.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463
Threats from the French always go down so well with the U.K. public.
BBC said:
Threats from the French always go down so well with the U.K. public.
Not quite sure I understand that logic, but okay!
The wages should rise if we left the EU, at least if everything goes well. If we even slightly take control of our borders, then that reduces the supply of cheap European labour, raising wages at the low end, raising the cost for goods and services elsewhere, which will in turn raise the price of wages at the middle and top end (potentially).
That's what Lord Rose is saying as well
But I wouldnt say it's clear cut. Firstly, even when we lave the EU, the chances are we will still allow free movement of workers (EFTA/EEA). Secondly, if a few big companies choose to leave the UK, then the loss of jobs could negate much improvement at the low end.
But yeah, that is definitely a potential reason to vote out. Wages needs to rise.
wages will potentially rise... but as a net importer who according to most market analysts would face not only the potential of tariffs but would see a currency devaluation (making imports more expensive) I would suggest there would be a pretty steep cost of living increase as well... not to mention that the UK economy would probably be viewed as riskier and you would have to see increases in guilt rates and offered returns to attract investors which would most probably feed into increased interest rates this more expensive credit and mortgages making it more expensive for people and harder for businesses to expand... but yeah there may be a small rise in wages (though probably not for lover paid as we have the national living wage anyway).
I would be very surprised if the majority of people were net beneficiaries
I would be very surprised if the majority of people were net beneficiaries
I do agree. I mean, if the Pound dropped to parity with the Euro, that would be horrendous for imports. Tariffs shouldn't be too bad, I'd still expect us to join the EEC which I think would just give us access to the EU negotiated rates.
I believe we have 0% tariffs on imports from Japan (most goods), 0% tariffs from imports and exports from/to Mexico (most goods), 8% tariffs on imports from China.
Wages might rise because there would be fewer immigrants chasing jobs? Possibly, for those that still have jobs.
Of course if there were an increase in unemployment there would still be plenty of people chasing jobs. And as we've gone over time and time again, leaving might not reduce immigration much anyway.
Of course if there were an increase in unemployment there would still be plenty of people chasing jobs. And as we've gone over time and time again, leaving might not reduce immigration much anyway.
There wouldn't need to be an agreement if France stopped letting illegal immigrants into their country or dealt with them properly once they were in. The French government is so completely ineffective in these matters. Better for everyone concerned if they make an effort to get their act together rather than wasting valuable energy on threatening us.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463
I wonder how many times the leavers are going to have to dismiss something as "scare-mongering".
France will end border controls in Calais, deny Britain access to the EU market, and try to tempt Britain's bankers to France. But apparently it's just flustering because we are paying for them to do that?
I wonder how many times the leavers are going to have to dismiss something as "scare-mongering".
France will end border controls in Calais, deny Britain access to the EU market, and try to tempt Britain's bankers to France. But apparently it's just flustering because we are paying for them to do that?
So surely Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin has just admitted that if we leave the EU, France would have no reason to honour these arrangements.
You see, I don't have any problem with it being called 'scare-mongering' because thats effectively what it is. Raising concerns, or fear, or even scaring people, about the negative consequences of leaving the EU.
But dismissing them as 'scare-mongering' is always, for me anyway, an admittance that they have no alternative. Rather than addressing the legitimate concerns raised, they resort to whinging about the tactics.
It was the same thing yesterday about the so called 'dodgy' dossier, laying out the picture for the UK if it did leave, the leave campaign didn't like the debate shifting towards the realities of a leave vote, and instead prefer to focus on some wishful thinking that the UK would somehow be in a strong position to get everything our hearts could possibly desire.
This is going the same way as the Scottish referendum, the tactics of out voters in both have been the same. Vague argument couched in nationalistic hogwash, refusing to address legitimate concerns, and failing to really build a case for any tangible benefit for leaving.
One thing that looks likely is that England will vote out and Scotland / Wales vote in
I do wonder if we get an in vote if perhaps you will see the conservatives campaign for Scottish independence alongside the snp if there is a second (scottish) referendum in the coming years so they can try and get a second EU referendum
Well that isn't going to happen. No Torie would ever campaign to break up the Union.
Interesting graph though. It's important to note that it's just a graph of euroscepticism in comparison to the rest of the UK; so somewhere HAS to be red and somewhere HAS to be green.
One thing that looks likely is that England will vote out and Scotland / Wales vote in
I do wonder if we get an in vote if perhaps you will see the conservatives campaign for Scottish independence alongside the snp if there is a second (scottish) referendum in the coming years so they can try and get a second EU referendum
That won't happen, but the image of the SNP and Tories campaigning alongside each other on it is too funny.
Considering how much us Scots dislike just about anything the Tories do, maybe it'd actually work for them to get us to stay...
A Yougov guy on the Daily Politics said the eurosceptic survey also revealed a high Out vote from the over 60s, and a high In vote from the better-educated.
So strategically, to shore up their vote, the sceptics should be pushing to cut spending on schools and further education, and put the money in health care for the aged to keep the old gits alive longer, and voting Out.
So strategically, to shore up their vote, the sceptics should be pushing to cut spending on schools and further education, and put the money in health care for the aged to keep the old gits alive longer, and voting Out.
That won't happen, but the image of the SNP and Tories campaigning alongside each other on it is too funny.
Considering how much us Scots dislike just about anything the Tories do, maybe it'd actually work for them to get us to stay...
Aye if they had given the rest of us a chance to vote I would have been all for kicking you out of the UK... but now it looks like our
This sort of thing annoys me, as frankly those over 60 shouldn't be having a major say in issues that will predominantly affect the younger generations, and will continue to do so for long after these guys have bitten the dust.
I am 28 and educated to Masters level, and would vote IN, so I fit the profile pretty well.
I'm old and educated, but I've forgotten it all, so I don't think it counts.
The old can remember what life was like pre-EU so maybe they should be listened to...especially the educated.
But, if you take the opposite pov the younger generations haven't known anything else but the EU so have nothing to compare it with and don't know how to live without it. Maybe they're the ones who shouldn't be voting.
But, if you take the opposite pov the younger generations haven't known anything else but the EU so have nothing to compare it with and don't know how to live without it. Maybe they're the ones who shouldn't be voting.
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To what end would they pursue such a policy, its' not going ot reduce the number of migrants passing through northern France, or even negate the need for camps. No long to this branch of Project Fear
It is also worth noting that this is being voiced by the French finance minister, and not someone with a brief at the Interior department or security. All we have is a member of a rival government running their mouth, and one who could stand to lose on a personal level should we vote for Brexit.
Do you deny that there has been some utterly ridiculous scaremongering then? I would argue we've even seen some in here.
Hopefully that's how it will work out.
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