EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU?

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bri2013 said:
Patronising and contradicting in the same post. Kudos to you sir! No wonder he isn't bothering to reply to you.
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712 said:
Thread's gone a bit to shit with people using it to try and prove how clever they are. Sad anyone feels the need to do that really.
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Not at all, he is the one looking for an argument and despite me pointing out to him he is getting it wrong, he then proceeds to post as if he's reading a different thread. Plus I think you find it's he and Nani calling people ignorant and all that.

I'm just having a little fun with him rather than really get into it. It's just a pet peeve when people continue to misrepresent what you've said to argue, just so happens I got bored and called him on it.


And now we should get back on topic...I have a question to those more in the know than me. With all this stuff spouted about immigrants, what happens in France if we leave? Pressumably all the expense and effort to stop migrants at Calais (for example) is to do with European law as much as anything, what happens there if we leave?
 
Fortis Mente said:
How old are you 12? Because you sound like it with comments like that.
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:lol:

My word you are bad at this. In any case I'm not totally serious, I just can't see how you can misrepresent my posts then ignore when I've pointed out to you that you have and continue on. If you don't want an argument, don't cause one!

But let's drop it now, I'm sorry if I offended you. I await Nani's response to my very fair question...
 
NinjaFletch said:
Quite possibly true. Yet they're certainly not going to if you can't or won't cite your sources.

Whats the issue? If you think you have a convincing, well backed up and coherent argument why wouldn't you want to rest of the world to get in on it too?
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I'd rather not go into it on a football forum.
 
Redlambs said:
Not at all, he is the one looking for an argument and despite me pointing out to him he is getting it wrong, he then proceeds to post as if he's reading a different thread. Plus I think you find it's he and Nani calling people ignorant and all that.

I'm just having a little fun with him rather than really get into it. It's just a pet peeve when people continue to misrepresent what you've said to argue, just so happens I got bored and called him on it.


And now we should get back on topic...I have a question to those more in the know than me. With all this stuff spouted about immigrants, what happens in France if we leave? Pressumably all the expense and effort to stop migrants at Calais (for example) is to do with European law as much as anything, what happens there if we leave?
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It's a bilateral agreement between the UK and France rather than anything at EU level. By the looks of it, the French can annul the treaty by giving two years notice (which is a similar timeframe to that of our exit from the EU if such a verdict is reached). However, there's a fairly fundamental reason it probably won't be moved:

A senior French government source told the AFP news agency this week that the accords “are not destined to be revoked”. The main problem for France is that it is hard to see how a loosening of the border controls around Calais would do anything other than increase the numbers of migrants arriving on the northern French coast seeking to reach Britain.

Bernard Cazeneuve, the French interior minister, could not have been much clearer, saying last October: “Calling for the border with the English to be opened is not a responsible solution. It would send a signal to people smugglers and would lead migrants to flow to Calais in far greater numbers – a humanitarian disaster would ensue. It is a foolhardy path; the government will not pursue it.”
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/03/calais-border-treaty-brexit-what-is-france-saying
 
Redlambs said:
:lol:

My word you are bad at this. In any case I'm not totally serious, I just can't see how you can misrepresent my posts then ignore when I've pointed out to you that you have and continue on. If you don't want an argument, don't cause one!

But let's drop it now, I'm sorry if I offended you. I await Nani's response to my very fair question...
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Bad at what? I'm not trying to be good at anything. Your posts are very patronising and immature, and that's why I don't reply to them. Do you like to be the big, bad bully of the Cafe? Because that's the way you come across.
 
Fortis Mente said:
Bad at what? I'm not trying to be good at anything. Your posts are very patronising and immature, and that's why I don't reply to them. Do you like to be the big, bad bully of the Cafe? Because that's the way you come across.
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I'll once again point out that it's you who started this little route by blatantly going all strawman on my discussion with Nani.

Seriously mate, you can't expect to act like that and not be called out on it. In any case if you aren't prepared to back up your statements then you shouldn't really be making them.

Anyway like I clearly said above, I apologise for my tongue in cheek offense and it's time to move on.
 
Ubik said:
It's a bilateral agreement between the UK and France rather than anything at EU level. By the looks of it, the French can annul the treaty by giving two years notice (which is a similar timeframe to that of our exit from the EU if such a verdict is reached). However, there's a fairly fundamental reason it probably won't be moved:


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/03/calais-border-treaty-brexit-what-is-france-saying
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That makes a lot of sense, cheers. I didn't think they'd just shut them down for that reason, but wondered how much easier they could make it.

Not that my decision at this referendum has anything to do with immigration. Even if it was to have any impact on which way I'd vote, I can't see anything changing on that front. Well apart from genuine skilled workers finding it harder to come work here, which isn't a good thing.
 
Fortis Mente said:
I agree :)
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Maybe you thought we could be helped? That's at least admirable! ;)

Btw my mind is not made up yet, hence the questions to Nani. I know he gets a lot of stick (and to be fair in most cases he brings it on himself), but you took my posts to him wrong on that front. I was genuinely asking him for an honest answer as I'm still as yet undecided which way I'll vote. Whilst it's likely I'll be voting stay, the majority of people I know personally are voting leave for all sorts of reasons. Considering what I have to lose, I'm trying to be more informed all round. That includes asking people with far out theories :)
 
BringNaniBack said:
The pound hasn't been 'collapsing' yes it has taken a dip after certain polls etc. The whole of the west is going to collapse economically. The US dollar will be gone as a currency within the next few years as planned. You can hold me to that.
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BringNaniBack said:
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about fluctuation in the value of a currency. I'm talking about the full on planned collapse of the dollar to wipe out the astronomical debt the US have. Followed by the Euro and possibly other areas to possibly implement a new cashless currency for all. It isn't about a currency increasing or decreasing in value slightly as they do every day/week.
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What on earth? Where have you got this idea from?
 
Does anyone genuinely believe a Brexit will happen? I think this is just a huge soap, the status quo wants to stay and that's exactly what's going to happen. Can I bet somewhere on the UK staying?
 
VorZakone said:
Does anyone genuinely believe a Brexit will happen? I think this is just a huge soap, the status quo wants to stay and that's exactly what's going to happen. Can I bet somewhere on the UK staying?
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No, because money isn't real. It's just an illusion created by the higher powers to make you think you have a choice in life.

Bet365, perhaps.
 
"you're all stupid and ignorant to the truth"

"well then explain it to us and cite your sources"

"you wouldn't get it"

Genius.
 
Rado_N said:
"you're all stupid and ignorant to the truth"

"well then explain it to us and cite your sources"

"you wouldn't get it"

Genius.
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"you are all ignorant"

"You don't understand irony and debate like a kid"

"I'm telling my mummy!"


Sadly still there's no answer to my question from Nani. I'm beginning to think he doesn't have one :(
 
Chorley1974 said:
indeed you have been scaremongering
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No I haven't, I just express an opinion on what I think will happen, scaremongering is exaggerating and putting fear into people with no justification - I still don't understand what agenda anybody thinks I have .
Someone said on TV today, a mechanic tells you your brakes are shot, your engine's going to seize up and your wheels are going to fall off , presume he is scaremongering, but nevertheless you ignore his advice and take yourself and your family on holiday in the car, I wonder what might happen...
 
Steven Seagull said:
Really enjoyable few pages. My favourite part was when Enlightened 1 said all the global powers were lining up to brainwash us. Then Enlightened 2 agreed and said it was all decided anyway. What a waste of time all that brainwashing was.
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Yeah, it's pointless even having this vote apparently (I'd refuse to believe an educated adult could be so flippant, but Jeremy Kyle suggests otherwise), because it's all decided.

Which makes it odd then the staunch arguments for leave from our resident foil brigade.
 
VorZakone said:
Does anyone genuinely believe a Brexit will happen? I think this is just a huge soap, the status quo wants to stay and that's exactly what's going to happen. Can I bet somewhere on the UK staying?
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Depends what you mean, a full withdrawal will certainly will not happen. I do think Leave will win and it's largely the remain camps fault. We'll enter EFTA, there wont be an immediate recession, global markets will stabilise.

All in all I think those who voted Leave will feel robbed and lied to as nothing much changes.
 
BringNaniBack said:
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about fluctuation in the value of a currency. I'm talking about the full on planned collapse of the dollar to wipe out the astronomical debt the US have. Followed by the Euro and possibly other areas to possibly implement a new cashless currency for all. It isn't about a currency increasing or decreasing in value slightly as they do every day/week.
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Ive just finished assembling the worlds finest tin foil hat. Its yours for the reasonable price of: all of the cash / savings you own (which will be useless soon anyway, aparently).
 
I suspect and hope that this will be a case of the silent majority (remain) winning the day. It is always the way with these sorts of things that those wanting to keep the status quo are normally quieter and have less to shout about - it was the same in the Scottish independence referendum.
 
BringNaniBack said:
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about fluctuation in the value of a currency. I'm talking about the full on planned collapse of the dollar to wipe out the astronomical debt the US have. Followed by the Euro and possibly other areas to possibly implement a new cashless currency for all. It isn't about a currency increasing or decreasing in value slightly as they do every day/week.
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You know that all the evil mega banks make loads of money from currency trading right? Why would they want a single mega currency? I don't think you know a lot abut history, or indeed economics.
 
You only have to see the neurotically relentless coverage of immigration in the Daily Mail and Express or the antisemitism on the left to see the final mobiliser of paranoid opinion: racism, the oldest and most effective recruiting sergeant there is. If you wish, we can have learned discussions about how the web allows us to live in enclaves, which black out alternative points of view. And indeed it is worth talking about how those who scream the loudest about politicians being trapped in Beltways and Westminster bubbles, and damn “experts” for hiding in their ivory towers, have willingly locked themselves in maximum-security prisons of the mind, from which there is no escape.

You can accept, too, that there are good reasons to scream with rage. Britain has had the largest immigration in its history, after all, and not only racists worry about the consequences. But however fair minded you wish to be, you cannot deny that the Leave campaign has had to head into the sewers of conspiracy theory and race politics because it had nowhere else to go. It now resembles nothing so much as a trolls’ alliance.
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/18/eu-referendum-vote-leave-campaign-poisonous
 
Redlambs said:
Yeah, it's pointless even having this vote apparently (I'd refuse to believe an educated adult could be so flippant, but Jeremy Kyle suggests otherwise), because it's all decided.

Which makes it odd then the staunch arguments for leave from our resident foil brigade.
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I found your Caftards comics thread in the classics a few weeks ago. Thought they were really funny. Don't know how I have never seen it before? You should do a special EU referendum edition to sum up the mood of the thread.
 
Why does the remain camp insist on peddling out this whole 'we are better off in a reformed Europe rather then out of it' nonsense? We already tried to renegotiate and failed, how is that going to change if we decide to stay in?

The leave campaign are just as bad by saying how we would have greater control over migration, the government fail with the levels of migration they can control now so part of me dreads to think how ineffective and incompetent they would be if they did have the power to decide who comes and who leaves.

The whole thing has been a total farce. Each side has been guilty of failing to produce a valid and informative argument to base their campaign on as far as I'm concerned.
 
JON.B said:
Why does the remain camp insist on peddling out this whole 'we are better off in a reformed Europe rather then out of it' nonsense? We already tried to renegotiate and failed, how is that going to change if we decide to stay in?

The leave campaign are just as bad by saying how we would have greater control over migration, the government fail with the levels of migration they can control now so part of me dreads to think how ineffective and incompetent they would be if they did have the power to decide who comes and who leaves.

The whole thing has been a total farce. Each side has been guilty of failing to produce a valid and informative argument to base their campaign on as far as I'm concerned.
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Not true. Yes it has been a farce on each side, but it's not true to say no side has produced a valid argument. People on the remain side have put forth several valid and informed arguments about the potential economic damage, how the £8bn that we will 'save' by leaving the EU will actually evaporate and how it won't affect immigration significantly at all, how the countries held up by the leave campaign (Norway and Sweden) are actually not as well off and even those countries themselves have confirmed it publicly. This is of course all scaremongering though. That's what the leave side say anyway. If it doesn't fit their narrative it's simply scaremongering.
 
Yes, but the remain side seem to have concentrated mainly on the economic argument (which I'm not saying isn't important) but in the process seem to have avoided one of the main issues that many people have, which is immigration. Meanwhile, the leave side have mainly concentrated on that issue but largely dismissed the economic argument, and as you pointed out any negative comments regarding that issue are generally branded as 'scaremongering'.

All the figures being banded about are estimates, they're not set in stone, no one really knows either way.

As per usual with politicians you never get a proper answer to anything, only what they want to tell you. Which to me given the magnitude of the decision being made isn't good enough from either side.
 
JON.B said:
Why does the remain camp insist on peddling out this whole 'we are better off in a reformed Europe rather then out of it' nonsense? We already tried to renegotiate and failed, how is that going to change if we decide to stay in?
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If we stay in we will at least have a say in new laws etc.

If we leave we still may be affected by said new laws without having any say.
 
JON.B said:
Yes, but the remain side seem to have concentrated mainly on the economic argument (which I'm not saying isn't important) but in the process seem to have avoided one of the main issues that many people have, which is immigration. Meanwhile, the leave side have mainly concentrated on that issue but largely dismissed the economic argument, and as you pointed out any negative comments regarding that issue are generally branded as 'scaremongering'.
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The Remain might be focusing on this because the immigration problem would take a back seat if the economy goes to crap.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
If we stay in we will at least have a say in new laws etc.

If we leave we still may be affected by said new laws without having any say.
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Yes we might have a say but how effective will it be? The more countries that join the less it will mean over time.
 
JON.B said:
Yes we might have a say but how effective will it be? The more countries that join the less it will mean over time.
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How significant will Britain be otherwise? Granted, the French economic minister has a vested interest in the EU, but his description of Britain becoming like Guernsey doesn't sound good.
 
Carolina Red said:
The Remain might be focusing on this because the immigration problem would take a back seat if the economy goes to crap.
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But if the population continues to grow beyond a point where it becomes sustainable then society will go to crap, so how's it not equally as important? It's easy to say 'oh we'll just build more houses' but what about everything else that has to be taken into account?
 
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