EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

[Redlambs]

Something is definitely going on!

It's the google generation. I find it incredibly sad that never has the world been so capable of being informed, yet a lot just search out the information that fits their world view. If they bother at allm


That and since RC is neutered, you don't get the newbies learning the hard way how not to post

 

[Rado_N]

It's the google generation. I find it incredibly sad that never has the world been so capable of being informed, yet a lot just search out the information that fits their world view. If they bother at allm


That and since RC is neutered, you don't get the newbies learning the hard way how not to post

newbies definitely have it too easy these days!

 

[TwoSheds]

Collapse the world economy just so we can bring in a cashless currency

Why couldn't we make the dollar or pound cashless if we wanted?

 

[NinjaFletch]

The £pound is certainly dipping on uncertainty now, but look back over the last 10 years and you'll see much bigger deviations, so let's not pretend the current XR's are the end of the world.

I'm still undecided how I will vote, but it's the negative shite of the remain campaign such as you spout that pushes me towards leave.

He wasn't talking about the EU directly, he was talking about BNB's delusions.

I mean this genuinely though, what is it about Remain's negativity that irritates you? Because you don't think its true or because you'd rather they'd focus on the positive aspects of the EU?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The £pound is certainly dipping on uncertainty now, but look back over the last 10 years and you'll see much bigger deviations, so let's not pretend the current XR's are the end of the world.

I'm still undecided how I will vote, but it's the negative shite of the remain campaign such as you spout that pushes me towards leave.

Of course there are deviations and yes it's uncertainty because the the markets fear Brexit - if you want to go back in time the US$ was 2.80 to the pound when Wilson devalued it

You ignore facts, stop giving excuses and blaming everyone else , like the Brexit campaign blaming the EU for its own useless government -if you want to vote leave then vote leave but don't let facts get in the way

 

[Redlambs]

newbies definitely have it too easy these days!

It's definitely created a situation on here with regards to discussions though. You just can't have them on here anymore because there's always some strawman knob who changes the argument and a load of idiots to jump on something that hasn't been said and it takes over. Look at the violence in france thread at the start for that.

Sometimes it would just be nice to have license to tell someone to shut the feck up like we used to

 

[Redlambs]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/believing-bull/201109/you-can-prove-negative

Instead of quoting something I doubt you even understand, let alone should have any faith in (considering you are so enlightened), why don't you answer my post?

 

[Chorley1974]

He wasn't talking about the EU, he was talking about BNB's delusions.

I mean this genuinely though, what is it about Remain's negativity that irritates you? Because you don't think its true or because you'd rather they'd focus on the positive aspects of the EU?

I think a lot of it isn't true, nobody knows the real short term effect, never mind the longer term picture, some of the figures bandied around have been ridiculous, throwing out arbitrary figures doesn't convince me. I've not seen the positive arguments for EU membership, we just hear you're fuc**d if you leave.

 

[TwoSheds]

This is why it's pointless voting.

It's not pointless voting for a system that offers a hope of a good outcome, it's definitely pointless voting out of that system just so that you can say well at least I predicted all the doom I've just caused.

 

[Duafc]

@Redlambs rolling back the years and wrecking some punks.

It's like a game of WW in here

 

[Rado_N]

It's definitely created a situation on here with regards to discussions though. You just can't have them on here anymore because there's always some strawman knob who changes the argument and a load of idiots to jump on something that hasn't been said and it takes over. Look at the violence in france thread at the start for that.

Sometimes it would just be nice to have license to tell someone to shut the feck up like we used to

You're not wrong mate.

 

[Chorley1974]

Of course there are deviations and yes it's uncertainty because the the markets fear Brexit - if you want to go back in time the US$ was 2.80 to the pound when Wilson devalued it

You ignore facts, stop giving excuses and blaming everyone else , like the Brexit campaign blaming the EU for its own useless government -if you want to vote leave then vote leave but don't let facts get in the way

circa 2007 the pound was $2, what the deck are you on about?

 

[Redlambs]

I think a lot of it isn't true, nobody knows the real short term effect, never mind the longer term picture, some of the figures bandied around have been ridiculous, throwing out arbitrary figures doesn't convince me. I've not seen the positive arguments for EU membership, we just hear you're fuc**d if you leave.

The problem for me is that works both ways. Neither side have had good arguments, both are scare mongering. It's all very childish for what is such a big decision.

 

[bri2013]

I think if you had done some investigation, you might find that it is in fact the pound that is collapsing as it has been for several months -please come back to me in two weeks time if the pound hasn't collapsed even more if Brexit actually happens

The pound was quite a bit lower than it is now against the euro a few years ago as I remember?

 

[Chorley1974]

The pound was quite a bit lower than it is now against the euro a few years ago as I remember?

Indeed, remember the XR going skiing a few times when it was 1.14 or less to the pound, but Paul shouldn't let facts get in the way.

 

[TwoSheds]

I think a lot of it isn't true, nobody knows the real short term effect, never mind the longer term picture, some of the figures bandied around have been ridiculous, throwing out arbitrary figures doesn't convince me. I've not seen the positive arguments for EU membership, we just hear you're fuc**d if you leave.

Thing is, the economy, like the rest of the world, is built on a bit of a house of cards of debt. One big shock and it really could be catastrophic. Likewise with peace in Europe. The world at the moment is thoroughly lacking in order and stability, I don't think it's insane to predict that dismantling the EU could lead to a European war.

Having said that, there are lots of much smaller, more pragmatic reasons which are not speculative that Remain should be focussed on e.g. having to rewrite half our legal system and renegotiate every trade deal, likely from a less advantageous position. Why has nobody quantified just the administrative costs for example? It would run into the 100s of millions at least, and for what benefit?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

circa 2007 the pound was $2, what the deck are you on about?

I know it was -I was talking about 1966 before the EEC, the reason the pound is going down in value now is because of the uncertainty over Brexit - 2007 is irrelevant 1966 is irrelevant - if you think I'm wrong come back in two weeks time if Brexit happens and see where the pound is. It's not me alone saying , ask any currency expert.
This is nothing to do with scaremongering - every time someone hears something they don't like it's scaremongering

Nani's talking about a collapse of the Euro and disappearance of the US$ yet this Brexit talk doesn't even bother you- ok

 

[NinjaFletch]

I think a lot of it isn't true, nobody knows the real short term effect, never mind the longer term picture, some of the figures bandied around have been ridiculous, throwing out arbitrary figures doesn't convince me. I've not seen the positive arguments for EU membership, we just hear you're fuc**d if you leave.

I get that, my biggest problem with the Remain campaign (amongst others) is they've basically entirely let Leave set the debate. Luckily for them Leave initially tried to push some economic argument that just doesn't make sense and was easily countered but since Leave stumbled onto a winner with immigration the response has basically been 'Well, if you leave the EU it probably won't get better' which is probably true, but who the feck is going to be inspired by that?

FWIW, I think the arguments surrounding the economy are very founded in fact even if there's some bollocks as well (e.g. anything Osborne touched) and people are vastly underestimating the economic impact of the EU which would make leaving the EU a really bad decision. Remain's failure to convince the electorate of that's probably going to lose them the referendum.

 

[Zarlak]

I don't need to, BringNaniBack is doing a pretty good job at enlightening you all, but ignorant people will believe what the media (and manipulated society) tells them they believe. That's not their fault though, sadly it's just the way it is.

It's funny because it's the leave campaign believing the media, whilst the remain campaign listens to people whose job it is to look at this stuff. But like I said, feel free to enlighten us. Preferably with facts rather than hopeful optimism.

 

[Chorley1974]

Thing is, the economy, like the rest of the world, is built on a bit of a house of cards of debt. One big shock and it really could be catastrophic. Likewise with peace in Europe. The world at the moment is thoroughly lacking in order and stability, I don't think it's insane to predict that dismantling the EU could lead to a European war.

Having said that, there are lots of much smaller, more pragmatic reasons which are not speculative that Remain should be focussed on e.g. having to rewrite half our legal system and renegotiate every trade deal, likely from a less advantageous position. Why has nobody quantified just the administrative costs for example? It would run into the 100s of millions at least, and for what benefit?

The bigger economic picture is the only thing that pushes me to remain, just the current state of the global economy, and as you say the house of cards. The negative remain campaign including most of this thread also push people the brexit way, they apparently have facts, but they don't, it's a big unknown. Also Obama weighing in doesn't help, would the US give up a shred of their sovereignty? Would they feck. Also many other politicians weighing in, basically saying they'd punish the UK for leaving. Basically the EU showing it's true nature, tow the line, have no voice or say, just follow our orders and all will be ok.

 

[Redlambs]

@Redlambs rolling back the years and wrecking some punks.

It's like a game of WW in here

This pup has no chance!

Probably run off to the tin foil hat forum with Nani trying to figure out how best to answer me without looking completely clueless

 

[Alock1]

I think a lot of it isn't true, nobody knows the real short term effect, never mind the longer term picture, some of the figures bandied around have been ridiculous, throwing out arbitrary figures doesn't convince me. I've not seen the positive arguments for EU membership, we just hear you're fuc**d if you leave.

I agree that the leave campaign has been sterile & limp, and focused on negativity. It hasn't been helped by the Tories being so split and labour's leader being half-halfheartedly behind the campaign. I do believe that he wants out but knows he can't say as such so has taken a back seat.

A lot of those negative points you can just flip to be positives though; i.e. 44% of our exports go to the EU and staying in makes this much easier as a default, any position that is effected by leaving would no doubt put us in a worse situation with our biggest customer.

Whilst I agree that it's been somewhat poor from the Remain campaign, a 'take your country back/into your own hands/control its destiny' and grand promises of a better Britain with no real examples given with sufficient evidence that positive change could (never mind would) happen. The misinformation over the fee (quoting a gross figure) and ignoring any perspective on sovereignty (yes, we've rejected 58 EU regulations that were forced - we also agreed to 2500 of them) is no different.

Both sides have had a poor showing as far as I'm concerned - not that I expect any different.

 

[Duafc]

I agree that the leave campaign has been sterile & limp, and focused on negativity. It hasn't been helped by the Tories being so split and labour's leader being half-halfheartedly behind the campaign. I do believe that he wants out but knows he can't say as such so has taken a back seat.

A lot of those negative points you can just flip to be positives though; i.e. 44% of our exports go to the EU and staying in makes this much easier as a default, any position that is effected by leaving would no doubt put us in a worse situation with our biggest customer.

Whilst I agree that it's been somewhat poor from the Remain campaign, a 'take your country back/into your own hands/control its destiny' and grand promises of a better Britain with no real examples given with sufficient evidence that positive change could (never mind would) happen. The misinformation over the fee (quoting a gross figure) and ignoring any perspective on sovereignty (yes, we've rejected 58 EU regulations that were forced - we also agreed to 2500 of them) is no different.

Both sides have had a poor showing as far as I'm concerned - not that I expect any different.

But is the ps4 better than the Xbox!?

FFS man!!!!

 

[Chorley1974]

I know it was -I was talking about 1966 before the EEC, the reason the pound is going down in value now is because of the uncertainty over Brexit - 2007 is irrelevant 1966 is irrelevant - if you think I'm wrong come back in two weeks time if Brexit happens and see where the pound is. It's not me alone saying , ask any currency expert.
This is nothing to do with scaremongering - every time someone hears something they don't like it's scaremongering

Nani's talking about a collapse of the Euro and disappearance of the US$ yet this Brexit talk doesn't even bother you- ok

You're not making sense, do you think now is the lowest the £ has been against the dollar in recent times?

If brexit the pound will fall short term, not sure what your point is.

 

[Redlambs]

It's funny because it's the leave campaign believing the media, whilst the remain campaign listens to people whose job it is to look at this stuff. But like I said, feel free to enlighten us. Preferably with facts rather than hopeful optimism.

Yeah, good luck with that one. Apparantly these enlightened folks don't like honest questions where they have to actually explain what they mean rather than regurgitate something they read.

Rather ironic considering they accuse everyone else of believing what we are told.

 

[Damien]

I don't need to, BringNaniBack is doing a pretty good job at enlightening you all, but ignorant people will believe what the media (and manipulated society) tells them they believe. That's not their fault though, sadly it's just the way it is.

The most popular print media - Murdoch's empire, Express et al have been backing Brexit. Someone posted a tweet either in this thread or the Jo Cox one about Express' front pages saying the same line about migrants which fits in with the bit in bold.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The pound was quite a bit lower than it is now against the euro a few years ago as I remember?

Yes currencies change all the time for different reasons. end of last year the Uk had good data , was doing well and the Brexit fears came into the equation, everyone is nervous and the pound is diving - sometimes it gains against the USD and loses against the Euro and vice versa, here its diving against both

 

[Redlambs]

But is the ps4 better than the Xbox!?

FFS man!!!!

If you are gonna go there, might I suggest questioning him on if he still thinks Kinect is the next big thing?

Hehe!

 

[Alock1]

I expect the £ will fall fairly long term. We rely too much on London being the business hub that it is, and leaving the EU hurts that majorly. That's before you even consider the hit to imports will have on what is a predominantly importing nation.

A 'take the hit' campaign could have been somewhat convincing if there was guarantees we would take advantage of the current low interest rates and loan a lot of money to invest in the likes of rail/education/industry and shit. Even with a falling GDP we could afford it and it'd help get us back in a position of strength even when somewhat isolated.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You're not making sense, do you think now is the lowest the £ has been against the dollar in recent times?

If brexit the pound will fall short term, not sure what your point is.

Why short-term, what's going to bring it back
I've been dealing with international trade for longer than Nani has been alive but why listen to me, after all I'm only scaremongering , don't know why, but it seems I am

 

[NinjaFletch]

I agree that the leave campaign has been sterile & limp, and focused on negativity. It hasn't been helped by the Tories being so split and labour's leader being half-halfheartedly behind the campaign. I do believe that he wants out but knows he can't say as such so has taken a back seat.

Interesting perception vs reality issue in a nutshell there. Cornyn's been very active, but it hasn't been reported. And his stance on the EU (its imperfect, but we're a damn sight better in than out) probably best sums up how most Remainer's feel. The official Remain campaign have dominated headlines (probably reasonably so given they're the official campaign, even if they're useless) and there's not much else he can do.

 

[Redlambs]

I expect the £ will fall fairly long term. We rely too much on London being the business hub that it is, and leaving the EU hurts that majorly. That's before you even consider the hit to imports will have on what is a predominantly importing nation.

A 'take the hit' campaign could have been somewhat convincing if there was guarantees we would take advantage of the current low interest rates and loan a lot of money to invest in the likes of rail/education/industry and shit. Even with a falling GDP we could afford it and it'd help get us back in a position of strength even when somewhat isolated.

That would require them to have some kind of plan. I can see the referendum going their way, then in the hall after celebrating the music stops and they all stand there looking at each other until someone asks "now what?"

 

[Alock1]

Interesting perception vs reality issue in a nutshell there. Cornyn's been very active, but it hasn't been reported. And his stance on the EU (its imperfect, but we're a damn sight better in than out) probably best sums up how most feel. The official Remain campaign have dominated headlines (probably reasonably so given they're the official campaign, even if they're useless) and there's not much else he can do.

Active enough to get by/keep up appearances is how I see it. The man knows how to get himself on the TV and in the public eye, and when the time comes for Labour to be in the front line he won't have a problem getting it out there.

He's said before he wants us out, and I'm not sure I believe that his new stance is sincere.

 

[hobbers]

The pound might fall a bit but the Euro will continue crashing regardless.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The pound might fall a bit but the Euro will continue crashing regardless.

Didn't notice it was

 

[Redlambs]

Interesting perception vs reality issue in a nutshell there. Cornyn's been very active, but it hasn't been reported. And his stance on the EU (its imperfect, but we're a damn sight better in than out) probably best sums up how most Remainer's feel. The official Remain campaign have dominated headlines (probably reasonably so given they're the official campaign, even if they're useless) and there's not much else he can do.

I'm not sure I agree there. Granted I've not been studying every aspect of this, but Corbyn definitely should have been more active in this. I've barely noticed him and I'd wager most others haven't either.

Put it down to reporting and coverage or whatever, but perception is a real thing and it looks like he's deliberately kept as quiet as he could.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Considering you seem to believe him verbatim what is it you two have read and where is your info coming from?

50p says its 4chan /pol/ and you're too thick to realise they're trolling.

Your post makes no sense.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Active enough to get by/keep up appearances is how I see it. The man knows how to get himself on the TV and in the public eye, and when the time comes for Labour to be in the front line he won't have a problem getting it out there.

He's said before he wants us out, and I'm not sure I believe that his new stance is sincere.

I don't know, I think not being able to get himself in the public eye (and whenever he has been he's had no control over the story) is his biggest failure as Labour leader. Him struggling to get heard effectively is not exclusive to the EU issue.

I like Corbyn, and I like him because he seems principled to me, so if this is a cynical move to back remain and let the Tories rip themselves a part I'd very quickly start to re-assess that opinion.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Who said anything about being right or wrong? In case you haven't noticed, I've been fine with Nani and asked him some genuine questions. It's not my fault he ran off before answering any further.

As for disproving anything, why is that burden with me? I've not stated anything he has said is wrong have I?

Listen mate, if you want a serious debate or people to at least take you as anything but a kid or a fruitcake then you really shouldn't fly off on one the moment anyone talks to you with a little sense. I notice you fail to respond to my main point too.

Now let me ask you a question, what would your response be to a (for arguments sake) Christian group coming forward and telling everyone to vote remain based on what they believe god would want and that everyone who disagreed were ignorant and small minded who can't see the truth?

I didn't run off. If you didn't notice I had been responding to multiple posters for a couple of hours so i'm sorry if I went off to do something else for a little while lol.

 

[Alock1]

I don't know, I think not being able to get himself in the public eye (and whenever he has been he's had no control over the story) is his biggest failure as Labour leader. Him struggling to get heard effectively is not exclusive to the EU issue.

I like Corbyn, and I like him because he seems principled to me, so if this is a cynical move to back remain and let the Tories rip themselves a part I'd very quickly start to re-assess that opinion.

Perhaps a bit of both. Either way, it doesn't give me confidence in the bloke - whether I sympathize with his general views or not.