You have economic lefties (i.e the working class) supported by ideological right wingers telling people that their problems which were worsened when Labour abandoned them for the centre and haven't been addressed by any UK government for decades can be blamed on foreigners and not their own failures.
EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.
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You have economic lefties (i.e the working class) supported by ideological right wingers telling people that their problems which were worsened when Labour abandoned them for the centre and haven't been addressed by any UK government for decades can be blamed on foreigners and not their own failures.
Cameron with his usual short-term agenda. There may be some here who remember my scorn at the time of his referendum promise, just buying time at the cost of problems to come.
I suspect he assumed it would go similarly to last time, lots of popular protest opposition early on, but when it came to sitting down and considering the actual consequences a stout majority for remain. To be honest that's what I expected myself, but you'd be a brave guy to bet on any outcom at the moment.
One thing that's starting to worry me is the effect of Leaving on Northern Ireland, it could be horrendous, I just hope not.
Yes Northern Ireland could be a serious problem, but nobody really knows
With Remain you know what you're going to get, with Leave no-one and I mean no-one knows what is going to happen, just applying guesswork and logic. Do you carry on with what you've got even if it's not perfect, can be improved, or do you leap into the unknown where problems that exist now could seem trivial if it turns bad.
Are they ? It's seem they were more anti tory rather than anything else , so in turn always voted Labour. Although I'll admit that's somewhat broad generalisation.
Well yeah over the last 20 years or so I'd agree because Labour abandoned them to become tory lite. I'm talking historical support bases, the people that stand to benefit from old Labour policies so vote accordingly, the sort badly effected by New Labour leaving them unrepresented.
This is the problem with many people who want to vote remain. They see leaving the EU as turning our back on Europe, going backwards in time and dividing society. Then they see staying in the EU as the way forward as it signals unity and peace and togetherness. How could we possibly pull out of this utopia where everyone loves each other and works together for the greater good?
This is where these people are mistaken. The EU is not about peace and togetherness. It is about centralisation of power, removal of democracy, a one world government, power to corrupt elites at the top and poverty for the masses at the bottom but it is disguised as peace and unity by the media and those in on the agenda.
So when we are told that everyone that wants to leave the EU is breeding hatred or is a right wing nutter that wants to divide society and the world, that is complete nonsense. We just want out of a system that is set up to to benefit the top 1% and to keep the other 99% on their hamster wheel. We want to be able to govern ourselves and have some control over our own destiny rather than handing more and more power over to the EU and those that control it.
If I thought the EU was the best way forward for world peace and unity I would vote remain but it isn't. Vote Leave.
This a decent piece from the spectator here from 2015 - http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/05/labour-lost-the-working-class-vote-a-long-time-ago/ suggesting that Labour had been losing the working class vote well before Blair(Blair got the working class vote back for a short time but lost it soon after).
Not to mentioned New Labour was a reaction to losing the last 4 election, so even with hindsight had Labour stayed with it's traditional left wing politics there's really nothing to suggest it would be in a better state. At best they get to gloat that Thatcherism was a load of old shite but that's a full 20+ years later, a pretty hard argument to make in early 90's after 4 election loses.
That's not defending New Labour but I struggle with the idea that move to the centre in 90's was the great downfall of the party.
Also just notice I'm derailing the thread. Sorry.
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You may as well rename this the Leftist Remain Thread.
I don't quite buy the known vs. unknown argument. Where we head after a Remain vote is not entirely clear. If it's close, policy is gonna get reviewed & shift in the Exit direction so those in power can hold on to the power. This is how it works. We don't quite know what we are getting into either way. I can't quite believe we are getting a vote on it. Been looking like a bigger mistake with each passing day. Hateful dishonest shite being flung in all directions, by all the major participants it has seemed to me, a lot of the time.
I'm sorry pal, but this entire post reads as melodramatic drivel.
Perhaps fair points have been taken to hyperbolic extremes with not an example of fact in sight.
Maybe leave off the Orwell for a while.
Ok pal well vote remain and you will see it become a reality. It is plain to see, if you can't see that all power in the world is being centralised for more control of the planet then there is no hope for you.
'have some control over our own destiny' Maybe this statement does sound melodramatic but when we are controlled by a system where we have no say in what happens and cannot vote anyone in or out, which will become the case, then we do not have any control over our own lives.
In what way has your life been controlled so far?
Has someone told you where you should live, who you spend your time with? What you have to do as a job, who you can vote for?
What do you actually mean aside from the platitudes?
The very fact that a referendum exists is proof that what you say isn't remotely true, any mug can have his say, despite the opportunity for disaster.
Good post. There were many who couldn't see the direction the EU was going in but lately I've noticed a change when I've spoken to people, particularly previous "don't knows". Seems they've recovered from the scaremongering and are now seeing things a lot more clearly.
Do you genuinely not know or is this some kind of test?
I genuinely don't know
Oh go on, I'll have a go...
Movement of Foreign people to the UK. Control of numbers better outside EU? How Much Do We Love Cheap Foreign Workers? We Is So Great Everybody in Europe & Africa Wants To Come Here, We Should Be Strictly Whites Only, You Are Disgusting Racist Pig
££££ Contribution UK Makes - Too Much?
Trade - Conditions Set By EU Is Tricky, We'd Have to Do This Anyway, A Lot of Trade Will Disappear, It Won't Make Any Difference
EU Is Good for Being Fair, Likes Keeping People Safe, Grants For Good Things To Those In Need, Pesky Rules, UK Loses ££££ Despite Some Grants
Crap About Flags, Bringing Back the Pound Note, Channel Tunnel Maintenance, EU Quite Likes Wales, Bananas Will Get Even Straighter, We Can Have Our Old Light Bulbs Back (True)
Where Is It Going? One Enormous Super-Nation?
Movement of Foreign people to the UK. Control of numbers better outside EU? How Much Do We Love Cheap Foreign Workers? We Is So Great Everybody in Europe & Africa Wants To Come Here, We Should Be Strictly Whites Only, You Are Disgusting Racist Pig
££££ Contribution UK Makes - Too Much?
Trade - Conditions Set By EU Is Tricky, We'd Have to Do This Anyway, A Lot of Trade Will Disappear, It Won't Make Any Difference
EU Is Good for Being Fair, Likes Keeping People Safe, Grants For Good Things To Those In Need, Pesky Rules, UK Loses ££££ Despite Some Grants
Crap About Flags, Bringing Back the Pound Note, Channel Tunnel Maintenance, EU Quite Likes Wales, Bananas Will Get Even Straighter, We Can Have Our Old Light Bulbs Back (True)
Where Is It Going? One Enormous Super-Nation?
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Can back any of this up particulary the bolded part. I disagree. Almost every claim you've made is MUCH more applicable go our current government than the Eu. The government that would then have more power outside the Eu.
When people are being force fed this kind of rhetoric on immigration and it's being depicted as a matter of life and death, why won't unhinged people resort to violence. Most of it is even blatantly untrue.
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I see your latest brainwashing lesson from Brexit was a success
Switzerland withdrews its longstanding application from 1992.
http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/aktuelle-...eiz-zieht-eu-beitrittsgesuch-zurueck-ld.89101
http://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/aktuelle-...eiz-zieht-eu-beitrittsgesuch-zurueck-ld.89101
They withdrew the application in March according to wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations
What would be pertinent to Britain would be Switzerland withdrawing their agreement to free movement of peoples, and the resultant guillotining of all existing trade agreements.
I don't read German, is that what it's saying?
Just a formal act, not a change in relations/policies towards the EU. The nationalist party scores points with EU-bashing all the time and they wanted to withdraw this application (altough suspended) for a long time but middle and left parties didn't apporve. Some did change their minds (imo also to stop nationalists scoring points with it) so they got a majority. No news at all.
Source: Am swiss.
The vote was last wednesday, they got it wrong on wiki.
Not sure what you mean but in switzerland the EU is more or less on an all-time low in terms of favorability. That's not to say it wouldn't benefit from joining.
It was a terrible joke about what the Swiss flag looks like, I am happy deleting it, if you want me to do so.
I liked this, btw.
Does add authority to your argument, that's for sure.
Bleeding wiki, typical.
Switzerland is only interesting to the British because they are outside the EU to be honest, and how their trade agreements might set an example for us.
As far as I can see Leave's trade plan is just hope for the best, with a bit of bluster thrown in.
Leave hasn't ruled out having to accept free movement at all, and unless the Leave leaders come out and nail their colours firmly to that mast then I can only assume we probably would end up with free movement, in which case most of Leave's appeal disappears in a puff of smoke.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu
Damn eu immigrants who live off the taxpayer back
Damn eu immigrants who live off the taxpayer back
IMF says EU exit 'largest near-term risk' to British economy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36561720
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36561720
A bit of a different spin from Sky.
http://news.sky.com/story/1713684/imf-brexit-may-not-mean-a-british-recession
http://news.sky.com/story/1713684/imf-brexit-may-not-mean-a-british-recession
The free movement directive is a necessity to be a part of the EEA. The leave campaign have said already this will not happen therefore we cannot remain in the EEA like Norway and avoid the recession the article talks about. We can set up separate agreements with EU member states and negotiate an FTA like Switzerland sure (who had to open their borders as a result) and we may be able to avoid agreeing to that (no indication we will, but I'll grant you that we may) but the free movement directive is a core part of full access to the single market.
I read that even if Britain votes Leave, nothing will really change for a couple years? For example, all the immigrants already residing in the UK will stay, the EU rules will stay in effect since it will take time for Britain to draft new ones, and even the trade deal remains in effect for some time? In that case, we won't know the real impact for quite some time.
The things you listed would not alter that much , but the economic effect would start on Friday; pound weakening, foreign investors pulling out companies looking at moving to EU countries, economic uncertainty is the worst thing that can happen and although this has already had an effect leading up to the vote, most economists hoping that the Uk will still Remain, if the UK does leave an economic effect will start immediately
We would have 2 years to negotiate our severance from the EU, however as Paul mentioned an economic effect would start much sooner. Not to mention that separately to that we need to renegotiate a trade deal with the EU which has nothing to do with the 2 years - that's only us discussing our severance. Going from previous examples of trade agreements being negotiated in many other countries it can take up to or longer than 10 years to flesh them out.
Some Leavers seem to try and give you the impression we'd have an FTA with the EU within a week but that's just delusional. It takes a long, long time.
Presumably any EU-wide trade agreement would need the assent of all member states. That could take forever and would provide any belligerent country to endlessly delay the process, by seeking additional concessions. Hope I'm wrong, but I still fear that out is going to win by 5-10%.
That's what they were saying on French Tv the other day, the EU are not going to be in any hurry to negotiate a new deal and said it could take as long as 8 years to come to an agreement and it won't be favourable
Hmm I guess investor and consumer confidence dropping would alone have a pretty big impact on the economy as you say.
What exactly does 'discussing severance' entail? Also, does the trade deal stay in effect for two years while the re-negotiations take place (however long they take) or is it gone as soon as the votes are counted?
I think so too. Probably closer to 10%.
Leaving the EU is a 2 year process once we invoke article whatever of the Lisbon treaty which sets out the process. It gives a country time to prepare, so for those 2 years we are still paying into the EU budget, still part of the single market and still abiding by EU migration laws and all the rest of it.
The migration side of things will get tricky because there could be a rush of people trying to get over here before we officially leave, we will therefore have to put some measures in place to limit that, likely defying EU law, no idea what the penalties could be for that.
As Paul states above, the Economical effect will begin on Friday as the Pound crashes and businesses/investors start planning for the future looking less favorably on the UK. Costs/inflation will go up across the board and it'll be all eyes on Carney to see if an interest rates rise is on the way to try and lessen the impact but that kind of fix may unstabilise things elsewhere in the economy.
The main economical problem is leaving the single market, it could take much longer than 2 years to come to a 'Norway' style agreement, ie. still paying into the EU and accepting EU migration laws (but not having a say in anything). Which UK politician is gonna sign up to that any time soon?
Bookies cutting odds on remain (and increasing on leave)
Hope they get it right again
Hope they get it right again
Huh, I didn't know all this. Thanks. So not only will the current immigrants stay, but they will probably be able to continue to enter Britain 'unrestricted' for 2 more years? That seems to defeat a lot of what Leave wants to accomplish. I don't know how or if Britain will be able to stop the rush.
Seems like there will be an immediate economic backlash but then also a longer, possibly stronger downturn if a new trade agreement isn't settled quickly. I think most Leave supporters agree with this as well, they just believe a quick, favorable agreement is possible? Worrying times.
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