ETH on United philosophy: “Built a side to play direct football”… “Impossible to play like Ajax”

[Woodzy]

Rashford the club’s golden goose that can only play direct football, has now become pretty much undroppable, and ETH specifically mentioned we have attackers that require us to play this way. It’s fairly obvious our club ‘traditions’ are getting in the way of making any actual progress. We have basically boxed ourselves in once again.

Let’s be honest our own real fecking tactic is Bruno plays a Hollywood ball with the hope Rashford gets on the end of it.

This is why Neville was spot on yesterday when he said we need an entire culture change. We just need to cull as much as we can. We need people in that can make tough decisions, without sentiment and without constantly leaning on these old club values that are pretty much useless in the modern game.

 

[Redstain]

I dont have the stats to pull, but I'd surprised if Jurgen Klopp hadn't seen a 10 game spell where his win % was at an embarrassing level maybe even in two periods during his Liverpool stint?

I had a look he only lost 6 games in his second season, which is the highest amount of losses Liverpool faced in any 38 game season until they won the league under him.

As it stands he's in a different class to Erik, that's why many revert to type in the example of Arteta as the expectations are lower.

 

[Rooney24]

If ten hag has been told to play the dinosaur "united way", who would be powerful enough to dictate such a thing, I doubt the glazers would have a scoobie about football tactics all together, same with murtough, so is it fletcher, fergie?

Years ago I went to one of those dinner evening things for a supporters club I was in and the late great Eric Harrison was the after dinner speaker.

At the time there was a lot of talk United would bring in Martin O Neill as SAF replacement. A lot of fans weren't happy about this because of his style of play and that it wasn't "the United way".

So I asked him about it and he said "There's no such thing as the United way, there is only winning."

 

[Lentwood]

I dont have the stats to pull, but I'd surprised if Jurgen Klopp hadn't seen a 10 game spell where his win % was at an embarrassing level maybe even in two periods during his Liverpool stint?

With Klopp and Arteta it was obvious that their teams were making progress tactically. Arguably Arteta had a weaker side, as many problems with attitude/ego and less money to spend initially - but he's transformed Arsenal.

At this point, it's clear it's not working with ETH. He's shown me nothing, nothing at all in 18-months to suggest he can turn this squad into a functinioning unit at the highest level.

 

[VP89]

I had a look he only lost 6 games in his second season, which is the highest amount of losses Liverpool faced in any 38 game season until they won the league under him.

As it stands he's in a different class to Erik, that's why many revert to type in the example of Arteta as the expectations are lower.

Sure but last season he only won 4 out his first 10 or 11 Premier League games didn't he? Including losing to Forrest and Leeds and failing vs Palace Everton Fulham and of course losing to us.

 

[VP89]

With Klopp and Arteta it was obvious that their teams were making progress tactically. Arguably Arteta had a weaker side, as many problems with attitude/ego and less money to spend initially - but he's transformed Arsenal.

At this point, it's clear it's not working with ETH. He's shown me nothing, nothing at all in 18-months to suggest he can turn this squad into a functinioning unit at the highest level.

In Arteta second season, it was in no way shape or form obvious that arsenal were on to something. They were an immense laughing stock even here on the forum and ended up 8th in his second season.

 

[Redstain]

Sure but last season he only won 4 out his first 10 or 11 Premier League games didn't he? Including losing to Forrest and Leeds and failing vs Palace Everton Fulham and of course losing to us.

But that's credit in the bank, if Erik wins a champions league and a league title in his first 4 seasons he's totally entitled to have a season as derisory as this one promises to be. In fact he can have two of them consecutively, no one will bat an eyelid as he would have built his credibility.

 

[VP89]

But that's credit in the bank, if Erik wins a champions league and a league title in his first 4 seasons he's totally entitled to have a season as derisory as this one promises to be. In fact he can have two of them consecutively no one will bat an eyelid as he would have built his credibility.

Ten Hag doesn't have the same credit in the bank, of course. But he should have enough to last till at least Xmas without hearing bullshit from our own fans of wanting him out.

 

[Superunknown]

Coward of a manager. That’s why I always respected Van Gaal. A brave manager who wanted to implement his own football but fans won’t have it. Given it was boring given some of his signings were crap but you see now it’s not an easy fix. To change the style at this club is like squeezing the blood out of a stone but the guy was hell bent on changing it and implementing his own. How I wish now we should have given him more time in hindsight. We need a manager like him who’s strong and confident not the ones like this guy or Ole.

I'm going off-topic, but I still blame that 5-3 loss against Leicester for really messing things up. We looked great in the first half of that game and the football from the likes of Van Persie and Di Maria was awesome. I always thought that we just needed a few more key signings and we could have got somewhere with what he was trying to do. We made lots of scattergun style signings and there were too many misses. Not only that, but we ended up becoming too cautious and less keen to commit forwards, possibly because we were in fear of getting done like that again as we had been caught against Leicester.

I could see what Van Gaal was trying to do. I don't understand what Ten Hag is trying to do and it seems that he is less and less sure himself with the more games we play. It's actually getting to the point where we're just digging further into that hole. It's not getting results. I expect many fans were expecting a loss against City, but what we were looking for is a reason or reasons to think that we could go on to win the next game or the game after that. E.g. our chance creation would be better, or our pressing would lead to opportunities further up the pitch. But we didn't really see anything in that game. Nothing that makes me think things are going to change any time soon.

I feel that maybe this is where he needs stronger characters around him to navigate situations like this. Or, he needs to be a stronger character himself. He isn't big enough to drop players this season. But, he dropped Rashford last season for being late, so he can do it. He's just gradually become more cowardly...for some reason. I don't get it.

 

[Leftback99]

Looking and sounding more and more of out his depth. He's ruined the squad with his signings and now has no idea what to do with it.

We've got so obsessed with trying to play like a bad version of City and others with far inferior players that we've forgotten what makes exciting football.

Call me simple and old fashioned but what is so hard about implementing basic attacking football with £400m to spend, overlapping fullbacks creating overloads, finding central midfielders that can both run all game and provide some quality on the ball, buying a right winger that can create chances. It ain't rocket science.

 

[Isotope]

I don't need to read stats, I watched that match. Other than an almost "Marco van Basten's " hit the bar strike, he was very wasteful
All the balls went through him and he wasted it as much. But I'm sure his fans will show stats as if he was the only one forcing something. The matter of fact is he doesn't know how to dictate a game.

Bruno as a control midfielder as much as Pogba is. You get the system to cover for him to let him do whatever, if not he will shit the pants then whine to closest guy.

Agreed that he's not the one you want to dictate the game. He's more of a final third guy. But that doesn't mean he's not suited to play in more measured team. It depends on where you put him.

Against City, even the like of Eriksen had 71% passing rate, with Bruno was higher at 80%. Would you say Eriksen doesn't fit possession-based team?

 

[Mainoldo]

Not sure what you're point is?
Or do you mean the club only has to sign players selectively during alternative summers when an entire squad overhaul is required?

No it means manage your build appropriately! Nobody has… Nobody said spend £90m on Antony. Nobody.

 

[Cassidy]

No it means manage your build appropriately! Nobody has… Nobody said spend £90m on Antony. Nobody.

Including ETH, since he does not negotiate transfers, no matter how much you want to pretend he does

 

[Mainoldo]

Including ETH, since he does not negotiate transfers

Bro we had bids rejected. He knows what the outcome of keeping bid was. Did he think the price was going to go down.

He most have the same thought process of Sheik Jassim

 

[Cassidy]

Bro we had bids rejected. He knows what the outcome of keeping bid was. Did he think the price was going to go down.

He most have the same thought process of Sheik Jassim

I guess he should have said ok no RW signing then right? You clearly don't know what Murtoughs jobs is because its quite clear his job should have been to offer an alternative signing.
Its reported he did though and its reported the club failed to sign any of them which is why they went back for Antony late in the window

 

[fallengt]

I'm not absolving ETH of all blame, but it doesn't change the fact that we have a team built for mid/low block football over years, and have had one season of a manager trying to move away from that (in which he had to fall back to that same mid block due to how awful we were in possession). Whoever we swap ETH for will have the same problem, unless we swap him for another mid/low block manager and accept that we'll be playing that way, and will continue to be limited by that style, for years to come.

He didn't even talk to Rangsnick whom he assed the squad. If he had transition plan would've gone smoothly or better.
That was his first mistake, thinking he could've solved this by himself but little that he knew club is struggling for a reason. Rangsnick wasn't joking when he said club needed 10 players and had to plan it with what the manager wanted to play. United and ETH took it as an old man rambling.

 

[Revaulx]

In Arteta second season, it was in no way shape or form obvious that arsenal were on to something. They were an immense laughing stock even here on the forum and ended up 8th in his second season.

Not sure about that. There was no indication that Arteta was “onto” anything, but it was becoming apparent that lessons had been learned by the club recruitment-wise: overpaid duds were being shipped out and young hungry players brought in.

It’s certainly impressive how Arteta has grown into the job, but it’s hard to judge how much of Arsenal’s transformation has been down to him.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Bro we had bids rejected. He know what the outcome of keeping bid was. Didn’t he think the price was going to go down.

So ETH should have stepped in and told the club he wants Antony for maximum transfer amount of 40M or no RW? Should he also start negotiating the salaries of players?

 

[VP89]

Not sure about that. There was no indication that Arteta was “onto” anything, but it was becoming apparent that lessons had been learned by the club recruitment-wise: overpaid duds were being shipped out and young hungry players brought in.

It’s certainly impressive how Arteta has grown into the job, but it’s hard to judge how much of Arsenal’s transformation has been down to him.

I agree there, but on the pitch the benefits of that was not seen for a long time indeed. They made some really silly errors early on with Wilian and Luiz for example, and no one knew what the plan was.

 

[Mainoldo]

I guess he should have said ok no RW signing then right? You clearly don't know what Murtoughs jobs is because its quite clear his job should have been to offer an alternative signing

No it’s really simple. Like really simple! Eric the price is unrealistic for Antony now. We will have to move on.

 

[Redstain]

Ten Hag doesn't have the same credit in the bank, of course. But he should have enough to last till at least Xmas without hearing bullshit from our own fans of wanting him out.

Time will tell, that's subsequently in the managers control. Erik decides his careers immediate future not the spectators. He needs to up his ideas and turn it around.

 

[Laurencio]

Bro we had bids rejected. He knows what the outcome of keeping bid was. Did he think the price was going to go down.

He most have the same thought process of Sheik Jassim

I bet he said; "I need a left footed right winger and Frenkie". They couldn't get Frenkie, and Raphinha went to Barcelona, so they couldn't find any good alternatives to Antony. In the end we didn't get his priority targets. Frenkie was clearly the player he wanted to build his team around, not Antony.

 

[Mainoldo]

So ETH should have stepped in and told the club he wants Antony for maximum transfer amount of 40M or no RW? Should he also start negotiating the salaries of players?

I’m not blaming the manager but he’s not blame free. Pep comes out in a press conference and says we aren’t getting Alexis Sanchez as his demands were unrealistic.

Im not asking him to run the bloody finances but there has to be a structure of accountability..

 

[Mainoldo]

I bet he said; "I need a left footed right winger and Frenkie". They couldn't get Frenkie, and Raphinha went to Barcelona, so they couldn't find any good alternatives to Antony. In the end we didn't get his priority targets. Frenkie was clearly the player he wanted to build his team around, not Antony.

We agreed a fee with Barca. Frenkie was the most stupid chase in our history. I mean if you wanted him that bad and we agree a fee I assume there is some belief the player wants to come.

 

[erikcred]

I dont have the stats to pull, but I'd surprised if Jurgen Klopp hadn't seen a 10 game spell where his win % was at an embarrassing level maybe even in two periods during his Liverpool stint?

Exactly. Ten Hag could well turn out to be as good as Klopp if we give him another couple of seasons. If we give ETH five seasons, he'll be the next Fergie for sure.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I’m not blaming the manager but he’s not blame free. Pep comes out in a press conference and says we aren’t getting Alexis Sanchez as his demands were unrealistic.

Im not asking him to run the bloody finances but there has to be a structure of accountability..

I don't like the Pep comparisons. Firstly, City is run infinitely better. Everyone is in sync on what they want. Don't think Pep makes statements or decides these stuff in isolation. Secondly, City can do whatever they want. If one target goes, they can get another. Nobody knows what salaries their players work for.

 

[Cassidy]

No it’s really simple. Like really simple! Eric the price is unrealistic for Antony now. We will have to move on.

Indeed our Technical Director John Moutough in charge of transfers and all recruitment for the first team could have done that, he chose not to, instead he choose to go and negotiate with Ajax and pay 85m
That is what you are missing, Murtough didn't do his job, especially if the club scouts told him Anotny was not good enough, as they later leaked.

It points to the fact the clubs new structure is as broken as the previous structure and they learned nothing from the past.

That is not absolving ETH of any blame by the way, he has to take some share too, but the bulk is on Murtough since its his job to run and oversee recruitment

 

[Revaulx]

I agree there, but on the pitch the benefits of that was not seen for a long time indeed. They made some really silly errors early on with Wilian and Luiz for example, and no one knew what the plan was.

I’d forgotten those signings were that recent! You’re right, but my point still stands that Arteta hasn’t been some sort of messianic appointment who’s established a fresh culture and rebuilt the squad single-handed.

Sadly it looks like United (both club and fans) are still hoping for that.

 

[antohan]

In Arteta second season, it was in no way shape or form obvious that arsenal were on to something. They were an immense laughing stock even here on the forum and ended up 8th in his second season.

Problem is I don't remember Arteta ever suggesting he would give up and adapt his tactics to the available players.

 

[Cassidy]

I’m not blaming the manager but he’s not blame free. Pep comes out in a press conference and says we aren’t getting Alexis Sanchez as his demands were unrealistic.

Im not asking him to run the bloody finances but there has to be a structure of accountability..

So that was Peps choice and not Txikis?
The structure of accountability in the job descriptions, if someone is the Technical Director and in charge of all first team recruitment they are accountable for recruitment

 

[The Hilton]

He didn't even talk to Rangsnick whom he assed the squad. If he had transition plan would've gone smoothly or better.
That was his first mistake, thinking he could've solved this by himself but little that he knew club is struggling for a reason. Rangsnick wasn't joking when he said club needed 10 players and had to plan it with what the manager wanted to play. United and ETH took it as an old man rambling.

Rangnick didn't help himself in fairness, his time as manager was an abject failure. Plus the transition plan that Rangnick offered amounted to basically "replace everyone", which isn't viable for a team that can only afford 3 signings per summer.

 

[Cassidy]

Problem is I don't remember Arteta ever suggesting he would give up and adapt his tactics to the available players.

Its exactly what he did, they didn't start playing attacking football till the 3rd season, they struggled to score goals before that and focused more on being defensively solid for the first 2 seasons

 

[Mainoldo]

I don't like the Pep comparisons. Firstly, City is run infinitely better. Everyone is in sync on what they want. Don't think Pep makes statements or decides these stuff in isolation. Secondly, City can do whatever they want. If one target goes, they can get another. Nobody knows what salaries their players work for.

It’s not a City thing it’s a big club thing. Liverpool would not do what we did. Chelsea would and no shock they are right next to us.

 

[Mainoldo]

Indeed our Technical Director John Moutough in charge of transfers and all recruitment for the first team could have done that, he chose not to, instead he choose to go and negotiate with Ajax and pay 85m
That is what you are missing, Murtough didn't do his job, especially if the club scouts told him Anotny was not good enough, as they later leaked.

It points to the fact the clubs new structure is as broken as the previous structure and they learned nothing from the past.

That is not absolving ETH of any blame by the way, he has to take some share too, but the bulk is on Murtough since its his job to run and oversee recruitment

He didn’t do is job correct. But do you think he went back on his own whim?

You mentioned Pep had orders well it looks like Murtough had the orders and he delivered at the expensive of the club.

 

[BeltUp]

Looking and sounding more and more of out his depth. He's ruined the squad with his signings and now has no idea what to do with it.

How do you ruin something that is already crap?

 

[Cassidy]

He didn’t do is job correct. But do you think he went back on his own whim?

You mentioned Pep had orders well it looks like Murtough had the orders and he delivered at the expensive of the club.

You do realise Murtough hired ETH and ETH works for Murtough right?
The point I am making is Murtough should not be taking orders from ETH, its not surprising though because Murtough has never had this job before and has zero experience in the role.

And if you read my post you can see I said I'm not absolving ETH, point is though Murtough is accountable here and not ETH because ultimately its his decision

 

[Josep Dowling]

No it’s really simple. Like really simple! Eric the price is unrealistic for Antony now. We will have to move on.

It’s crazy how many United fans don’t understand this. Was Jota first choice for Klopp? We aren’t sensible in the transfer window, which is costing us most seasons.

 

[Leftback99]

How do you ruin something that is already crap?

Because now we're stuck with them

 

[Mainoldo]

You do realise Murtough hired ETH and ETH works for Murtough right?
The point I am making is Murtough should not be taking orders from ETH, its not surprising though because Murtough has never had this job before and has zero experience in the role.

And if you read my post you can see I said I'm not absolving ETH, point is though Murtough is accountable here and not ETH because ultimately its his decision

I’m not disagreeing with you. I’ve said Murtough should have said no. But seeing as he got what the manager wanted it’s on ETH. It’s his fault.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Maybe he's not allowed to get rid of players like Bruno and Rashford who are clearly not suited to his system?

2 Things

1. We are doomed
2. ETH is thick for taking the job knowing that he wont be allowed to ship certain untouchables.