This.
I really don’t get it. He’s basically making the same mistakes the last 2 managers made. He’s coming across completely out of his depth.
ETH on United philosophy: “Built a side to play direct football”… “Impossible to play like Ajax”
- Thread starter FrenchRed
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I really don’t get it. He’s basically making the same mistakes the last 2 managers made. He’s coming across completely out of his depth.
I'm not sure why people are surprised here, no one wanted us to be like Ajax and everyone spoke about United DNA - direct wingers, aggressive, fast breaking. Our two best players when he joined was Rashford and Bruno and are completely at logger heads to that Ajax style.
I think we wanted to become more like Klopps Liverpool and we lack the personnel. We can't defend large spaces in behind with the CBs we have now, nor can the play through the lines. The front line can't press properly or link up. Our midfield struggle to retain possession under pressure nor can they cover space well.
All that being said it's not like we don't have the personnel for the above. Martinez can play through the lines, Varane can cover larger spaces. I think Mainoo was meant to be starting this year, he looks like he has the energy and quality in possession we're lacking. The front line has just been fecked with the shit show handling of Greenwood, Antony's unforseen absence and Rashford deciding to forget everything he knows thus season. Hojlund looks like he'll be the striker we need, Garnacho will be here for the foreseeable future and maybe we will see Amad back soon. It's not all doom and gloom, but it certainly feels like it with this result and Newcastle up next.
I think we wanted to become more like Klopps Liverpool and we lack the personnel. We can't defend large spaces in behind with the CBs we have now, nor can the play through the lines. The front line can't press properly or link up. Our midfield struggle to retain possession under pressure nor can they cover space well.
All that being said it's not like we don't have the personnel for the above. Martinez can play through the lines, Varane can cover larger spaces. I think Mainoo was meant to be starting this year, he looks like he has the energy and quality in possession we're lacking. The front line has just been fecked with the shit show handling of Greenwood, Antony's unforseen absence and Rashford deciding to forget everything he knows thus season. Hojlund looks like he'll be the striker we need, Garnacho will be here for the foreseeable future and maybe we will see Amad back soon. It's not all doom and gloom, but it certainly feels like it with this result and Newcastle up next.
It is the whole reason he had garnered so much support among the fanbase to begin with. If he was some random nobody manager with no previous history of success playing progressive football, the fans would not have been half as supportive. The reason so many have fully stood with him is that we would eventually build towards playing modern attacking football at some point and then we are told 18 months in that we aren't ever going to do that? Why not? Why can Brighton and Aston Villa and Newcastle all manage to do it with far less money in shorter periods of time?
This is like if we signed Lionel Messi and tasked him with playing left back in his prime. Why the hell are we not demanding that the manager play in the same overall style (not identical) to what got him a chance at the job in the first place?
This is it in a nutshell really. Ten Hag is the start of the overhaul really, and some fans are already mutinying. We'll be stuck with mid/low block Ole/Mou football forever if we don't actually commit to adopting a style, and accepting the poor results and drubbings that will come during the transitional period, which will be a long time on our budget, at least several seasons.
Because we are a joke of a club who can't scout, recruit or negotiate. So we just ask ETH to pick players from Ajax or wherever he has mates.
It’s not that. I genuinely think they are lacking aggression and a will to really flat out run. Especially Rashford. ETH is pandering to him (but not to Sancho?) and it’s a hill he’ll probably die on
You miss the point. ETH is not transitioning us anywhere, he’s no idea where he’s going.
Buying players for an Ajax type style without actually wanting to implement it, now going back to direct football without the type of players he needs. It’s a complete mess, and not down to the chairman, structure etc, it’s all on him.
He’s lost at sea and not a manager I’d want to implement a counter attacking direct approach as he’s never done this before.
Sooner he’s gone the better.
Pretty much all the fans that I know of wanted a team that was far more comfortable with the ball and more competent technically. We had Jose with his 'direct' Zlatan/Lukaku focal point striker and almost complete disregard for possession football and then Ole with his 'counter and then defend for your life' against the big teams. Neither were particularly 'modern'. The disappointing thing with EtH is that for the most part we've failed to show any progress in dominating games and the attack has been wasteful/poor for years. he was meant to transform us and it just hasn't happened.
If only FDJ had actually been attainable
If Antony & Mount are the start of that overhaul then we shouldn’t just go with it because. . . it’s an overhaul.
The idea that EtH is to blame solely is as flawed as the arguments being made as if he takes no blame in what we’re currently seeing.
Based on what we are watching/have seen since just prior to the League Cup final there is nothing tangible to say EtH will come good given time.
Yesterday he chose a team without his 2 big transfers on the pitch, the playing style is very much of his making at this point.
Clubs broken but EtH isn’t a passenger.
That’s not true though is It. I mean we have signed players for years without ETH
What happened was he thought he knew better than what we provided him and yet again we allowed a manager to dictate.
These are the same sort of comments he made before the season about United's DNA and needing to play with United's traditions, and it set alarm bells off for me then. Why would we bring in a coach of another team if we didn't like the way he got that team to play?
I don't even know what our DNA supposedly is. We had about 4 different ways of playing under SAF and he'd even change it completely depending on the opponent. If every team only ever played the way they've always played, football would stay exactly he same all the time. Also we've been shite for 10 years so part of our DNA would also now be to be shite....which means that in order to succeed ETH would have to deliberately make us sh....oh wait.
I don't even know what our DNA supposedly is. We had about 4 different ways of playing under SAF and he'd even change it completely depending on the opponent. If every team only ever played the way they've always played, football would stay exactly he same all the time. Also we've been shite for 10 years so part of our DNA would also now be to be shite....which means that in order to succeed ETH would have to deliberately make us sh....oh wait.
Also, I simply don't buy that pathetic excuse. I don't expect an exact copy, but is it too much to want the team to be able to keep the ball, be competent and dominate after spending so much money on players??
We literally have 5 of his ex-players here at the club, 6 if you add Eriksen who was at Ajax as well, and you can't even have us look competent and organized is just a lame excuse.
We literally have 5 of his ex-players here at the club, 6 if you add Eriksen who was at Ajax as well, and you can't even have us look competent and organized is just a lame excuse.
Whilst I mostly agree, Ten Hag himself set us up like that last season? Why not, when support for gutting everything, starting again and accepting rough form would have been highest at the beginning of his tenure do it then? It feels like to me like we've given him £400m worth of players hoping that he'd do the same job as Ole, with the same style, and hoped it would get better results just by virtue of him being a better coach. It did for a while, 3rd and a trophy is our best season post-Fergie. However we slumping again, and we're 15 months in to his tenure with very little evidence of a transition towards a more progressive, modern proactive style of play actually visible?
Yep, the 'United way' didnt mean sitting back in a block and hoofing it for fast breaks. It could dominate the ball and above all attack. ETH has failed to impose any clear identity. Mount is not a direct player, he's slow as anything. Nor do we have even have wingers who can beat people, or at least Anthony cant. Its a jokePretty much all the fans that I know of wanted a team that was far more comfortable with the ball and more competent technically. We had Jose with his 'direct' Zlatan/Lukaku focal point striker and almost complete disregard for possession football and then Ole with his 'counter and then defend for your life' against the big teams. Neither were particularly 'modern'. The disappointing thing with EtH is that for the most part we've failed to show any progress in dominating games and the attack has been wasteful/poor for years. he was meant to transform us and it just hasn't happened.
If only FDJ had actually been attainable
Adiós ETH, we wanted a pass master, instead we got a press and push noob.
Its not the start of the overhaul. He's signed a dozen players, players he wanted. To do what? What style does he want? It changed several times on Sunday. No doubt you were defending Ole as well. How come Villa and Spurs look like well coached teams. Spurs are top of the league, someone needs to tell them they need to start an overhaul and wait two years for anything to progress.
My guess this is the Glazers and Murtaugh telling him he must play Rashford on the left every game because he's the most marketable star or is the brand or some other shit.
Might also explain Sancho's attitude. Honestly, he should walk and blow the whistle that this isn't a football institution anymore. It's purely a money making advertising business.
Might also explain Sancho's attitude. Honestly, he should walk and blow the whistle that this isn't a football institution anymore. It's purely a money making advertising business.
Makes me question whether he was told we had to play a certain way because it's the United way or something. Fans didn't like LVG's football either so maybe the board told him to not try to imitate his Ajax football here because of that? I'm just speculating here of course.
Thats just a non statement. We were built on winning. We we're built on strong managers. We were built on working class people. There are lots of statements we can make about the past. Its irrelevant. What does attacking football even mean? Peps football? Tiki taka? We were none of that. So once you say a statement like that to say a new manager then he will need to interpret it. And they will try to mimic it. And here we are with managers and the whole club just trying to bring back the old days which is impossible. Thats what happened to Liverpool until Klopp changed it all.
I think he definitely has had a bit of a false dawn with Rashford, it's not really fair to lay that at his door, but he can definitely be blamed for blowing so much on Antony and it having a negligible impact on our attack, bar his first game for us. I thought we were on to something in the Arsenal game with the pressing traps, Onana and Martinez drawing attacks and quickly transitioning, but I've not seen that since, which is really shit.Pretty much all the fans that I know of wanted a team that was far more comfortable with the ball and more competent technically. We had Jose with his 'direct' Zlatan/Lukaku focal point striker and almost complete disregard for possession football and then Ole with his 'counter and then defend for your life' against the big teams. Neither were particularly 'modern'. The disappointing thing with EtH is that for the most part we've failed to show any progress in dominating games and the attack has been wasteful/poor for years. he was meant to transform us and it just hasn't happened.
If only FDJ had actually been attainable
I think he really would have revolutionised our midfield and I can actually understand why he pushed so hard for him, even when it seemed unlikely.
Our troubles this season are quite clearly due to trying to adopt a more proactive approach - we're pressing much higher and much more regularly, and having a lot of success winning the ball back in those areas. The problem is that we're rubbish at then using those turnovers, and so what should be tons of chances for a few conceded are actually few chances for more conceded.
Football Heritage is back
I think the interview process would have talked out our "philosophy" and everyone can see possession heavy football has never really been how we've played. I don't think it would be as direct as you've put it, but I would wager it played a large part in the thinking of everyone involved in the hiring process.
His first mistake was the arrogance of not even trying to hear from his predecessor. It doesn't matter who it is or how much he sucked, at least listen before you dismiss; Inspiration can come from even the tealady. He and Murtough have made every mistake Rangnick told them, proving his words weren't the basic insight people painted them to be.
We’d be better had we not bought Antony, perhaps even buying Rasmus [in spite of obvious potential] & even Mount who was apparently bought as an 8 but has been used further forward.
The reason our attack is so impotent is in no small part due to the squad he’s spent a lot of money building.
Of course we're at the start of the overhaul, we're only a single season in to it. The style he's trying to implement is very clear, claiming otherwise is dishonest or wilful ignorance. Unfortunately that attempt to change the style, moving away from our old mid block to a high pressing team, is where most of our issues are coming from - we're one of the best teams in the league at winning the ball in dangerous areas, but we're rubbish at taking advantage of those turnovers (and so we're not making up for the inherent vulnerability compared to a mid/low block that comes with the approach).
Today it is ETH, tomorrow it will be someone else. It is always the same problem.
I'm not absolving ETH of all blame, but it doesn't change the fact that we have a team built for mid/low block football over years, and have had one season of a manager trying to move away from that (in which he had to fall back to that same mid block due to how awful we were in possession). Whoever we swap ETH for will have the same problem, unless we swap him for another mid/low block manager and accept that we'll be playing that way, and will continue to be limited by that style, for years to come.
That’s not true though is It. I mean we have signed players for years without ETH
What happened was he thought he knew better than what we provided him and yet again we allowed a manager to dictate.
What happened with Moyes summer, what happened the summer when Jose only got Fred etc etc etc
This./
Pretty much
You see more than me, I have no idea what he’s trying to implement. I really don’t think he does either going by his quotes.
A lot of our weakness if we want to be a direct counter attack team is due to the players he has brought in.
(another) red flag
Except he has not, you are including loans and stop gaps signings made because the club couldn't sort out the recruitment, you are being disingenuous.
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Exactly. We've always had a recruiting dept give the manager a list to choose from based on the profile of player they requested. It's only this time we've decided to back him, either because they thought he was the one, or Murthough's just that inexperienced. or bothThat’s not true though is It. I mean we have signed players for years without ETH
What happened was he thought he knew better than what we provided him and yet again we allowed a manager to dictate.
This just isn't true though, I think part of the confusion is because you're hearing "direct" and taking that to mean "sit back and counter attack". That isn't the case at all - the style he's trying to implement is clear, we're pressing much higher this season and we're one of the best teams in the league at winning the ball back in dangerous areas. Our problem is that we don't take advantage of those turnovers, and so the inherent vulnerability of the system, especially when compared to a mid/low block counter attacking approach, isn't balanced out by the higher potential for goals.
If he planned to do this, why on earth did he buy players who really don’t fit into this system at all?
I'm so far gone I have a hard time getting pissed off about this.
Yesterday I woke up thinking I should completely ignore the game... then I couldn't help myself and got all ready and tried to get upbeat... then I saw the lineup and went to play footie with my kids in the park instead.
I've no idea how we fix this, everything is broken top to bottom.
Yesterday I woke up thinking I should completely ignore the game... then I couldn't help myself and got all ready and tried to get upbeat... then I saw the lineup and went to play footie with my kids in the park instead.
I've no idea how we fix this, everything is broken top to bottom.
It’s not a non statement. This clubs history is built on that playing attacking football.
It's not about the money. It's about the club's willingness to make changes.
This club could have signed Caicedo for £10m. There are plenty of players out there we could get without spending half of what we have, which could improve us.
The club has simply proved unwilling to oversee significant playing staff churn in any summer since 2015.
You can't keep holding on to players and suddenly expect them to do more. Every coach since LVG has eventually defaulted to 4231 and counterattack.
That is how our squad is constructed. A thoughtful and experienced Sporting Director, with board support, could have changed things. However, when open heart surgery was recommended, the Board rejected that approach.
The players determine style of play. With all the best will on earth, we don't have the players to go full tiki taka.