ETH on United philosophy: “Built a side to play direct football”… “Impossible to play like Ajax”

[Freak]

So we bring a manager who plays a certain way so he can implement his philosophy on our style of play, only for him to come in and do something he was not brought in to do. Great.

I mean how difficult is it for a manager to come in and continue doing what made him good in the first place?

 

[#07]

People won't want to hear it but he's right.

Remember when people used to mock Kieran McKenna and Michael Carrick? Clueless coaches who were just putting out the cones.

They leave Man Utd and look at that, turns out they do have ideas, they do have styles of play.

So why did we not see it at Man Utd?

Maybe it's not that we have crap coaches. Maybe it's not that Ten Hag has suddenly lost his mind?
Maybe it's that the Man Utd squad is a Frankenstein monster, with players who aren't that great but who fancy themselves and won't listen to a coach who they think they're bigger than?

Ten Hag has looked at the squad and assessed it's limits. People will say but he's spent X. And the shocking thing is, the squad is so f'd it's not changed the fundamentals:

We have a counter attacking squad. It can only really do one thing truly well and you would need massive, wholesale changes to get it anywhere close to a totalvoetball team.

 

[golden_blunder]

Ill boost my own ego cos why the fk not - I made the post 'Is the United Way killing us'. I think now we know that its 100 percent fact. We are fkd until we stop trying to be the old United and move on to current football.

Manchester United is built on attacking football. That’s what we should be looking for regardless of what tactics get us there.

 

[Theo88]

The football is an atrocity but i will remain on the 'what do we really expect' side until February.

Dalot, maguire, Evans, Lindelof is a back 4 equivalent of a relegating side.

Amrabat is a backup

We have no RW (antony's season is probably a right off)
Our LW is playing the worst football of his life
Our CF is 20 and his backup is Martial.

If we see Licha, Bissaka, Shaw back I'm hoping we get to see what his ideas are about. And the fact that this team needs to spend is not really a surprise

 

[AndyMUFC]

Honestly, I’m losing patience with him now. If he’s persisting with this style of play then we might as well give up now, because it’s not gonna get us where we need to be.

People wanted Ten Hag because they wanted more progressive football, not this shit.

 

[JagUTD]

Also, isn't the "Ajax way" a bit more than just signing some players who can pass the ball and a manager who once managed Ajax?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Rashford, I kind of agree. Bruno can be displaced easily, but you need to have an idea how to make it work with the players at your disposal. I thought getting Mount was the first step (at least I thought our coaches recognized the issue with relying on Bruno, and also the problem it generates). But the way we've been using him, and the team setup, doesn't make me think this is the case anymore.

Bruno will be very fast out of the team under new manager IMO, ETH has shot himself in the foot making him captain.

I'm not sure, I think Bruno would be really difficult to take on from a manager's perspective. He's not the golden boy like Rashford is but he's on a fat contract, is a popular team member and is club captain (the latter being ETH's fault for doing). This is really a problem in all clubs, it's not unique to us, there will b some players with a lot of power but I do think we have exacerbated it - both of these payers are on new massive deals. have played poorly and yet start every game.

 

[Borys]

I'm not sure, I think Bruno would be really difficult to take on from a manager's perspective. He's not the golden boy like Rashford is but he's on a fat contract, is a popular team member and is club captain (the latter being ETH's fault for doing). This is really a problem in all clubs, it's not unique to us, there will b some players with a lot of power but I do think we have exacerbated it - both of these payers are on new massive deals. have played poorly and yet start every game.

I would only join this team (as a manager) if I was given assurances I will be allowed to make those "tough" decisions. Otherwise, it really makes little sense to fire ETH.

 

[Red-17]

I am pretty sure he tried his Ajax way in the very start, then changed his plans after that horrible start to last season. Disappointing.

So literally the same problem as under Louis Van Gaal where we played brilliant football for about 3 games and then abandoned it the minute we had a shock result because this club is unwilling to suffer some short term pain and poor results to actually build something. The fans would have patience if we saw that we were actually working towards something. Yes there would be bad and even shocking results, but there would also be games against the likes of Sheffield United, Coppenhagen, and others who we are clearly a level above where we would see genuine attacking and posession oriented football and it would be a matter of filling in the gaps in the squad to make that style successful in all games as the team grew together.

Instead we are stuck with short term thinking where we are afraid to play out from defense because we got battered against Brentford last season trying to do it.

 

[Ali Dia]

It’s not great when he’s got an almost new team BUT as I said yesterday. We aren’t beating City Bayern Madrid or Liverpool with Evans, Wout, Eriksen or whichever free transfers we have to rely on. It’s stupid that we have to do this every season. There should be an absolutely top young player pushing every starter in our squad for the money we spend. I’m starting to lose faith in the manager now though either way. The owners totally suck but it feels like the manager has lost the team since the ownership/Maguire -Bruno /Antony/ Greenwood/Sancho stuff
Too much drama not enough improvement on the pitch.

 

[ToToMarshall]

Many of our players may be shit relative to the standard of our great United players of the past. But they are still highly paid professional football players who should be capable of doing the basics. Brighton played some good stuff and easily best us with the likes of Welbeck and Lallana in the team. I refuse to believe we have players who are incapable of carrying out the same job as Brightons second string team.

Getting this squad to play reactive, transition heavy football with a deeper line is the path of least resistance for 'success' (as proven last year, 3rd and a trophy is as good as we've had it in 10 years). ETH is a pragmatist, who saw that playing a deeper line and relying on transitions like Ole did before him was more conducive for getting wins than trying to force a style on a group of players where it didn't suit. This might be short-sighted and potentially worse for him and us in the long run than going for a full overhaul and accepting that would mean floundering for a few seasons, but it's the decision he made.

Yes our squad man-for-man is better than Brighton's, but theirs has been meticulously assembled by transfer wizards, with their coaches style of play in mind, their opinions taken on board but not treated as gospel. The reason Welbeck and Lallana look better playing possession football than Rashford and Fernandes is the same reason the transition from Potter to De Zerbi was seamless and actually led to further improvement. The club's plans on and off the pitch are directly aligned and one informs the other. The same couldn't be less true for us.

 

[Cassidy]

Ajax also didn't play like Utrecht... both teams played well.

 

[sglowrider]

Unless we fully commit to an overhaul from top to bottom of the club we won't implement a style.

Eth has no choice but to adapt the play to a style of football they can deliver or we will lose games and he will be sacked. The club isn't willing to do a full overhaul and the fans don't have the stomach for the pain it will take.

Whenever we have tried to play with a high line a dominant the game, the players can't defend transitions and we lose and are incapable of playing in tight spaces. So ETH either adapts the game plan to make it fit the players abilities or we lose more games, the pressure grows and he is sacked.

The only games we have won this year have been playing a conservative style that we played under Ole and Mourinho because that's what these players are capable of.

You cant blame the players -- he has brought into 12 players in 2 summer windows. His players.

No other manager has been supported this well since Fergie retired.

 

[sullydnl]

It's very difficult to consistently win matches without being dominant most of the time.

Us under Fergie, Real Madrid compared to Barcelona, Klopp's Liverpool compared to Pep's City...they all are happy to play defensively and attack on the counter when needed, but that doesn't mean that they don't dominate 90-95% of the matches they play each season.

Yep, this is the key point.

It really doesn't matter in the slightest whether we intend to be a more direct & transition-focused side than teams like Ajax or City. A lot of excellent teams are, have been and will continue to be more direct than those sides.

Because the reality is that wherever those top sides fall on that spectrum only really matters relative to the other top sides. Against weaker sides the expectation and requirement is that they be better than them across multiple areas in a way that allows them to dominate regardless. If you're a possession-focused team you still need to be better in transition than 90-95% of the teams you face, if you're a transition-focused team you still need to be better in possession than 90-95% of the teams you face. That's how you win titles.

I really don't think these quotes matter, because I couldn't care less whether he intends for us to be more or less direct than Ajax. My concern is why we're not actually playing well even within the vision for the team he set out.

 

[Red-17]

It’s the pace we play at, ridiculously slow. It’s frustrating to watch the ball go wing then see Dalot pass it back to Bruno who goes back further to Maguire. It allows the opposition to get into space. It’s killing us. Why are we not utilising the pace of Rashford and Hojlund? Why do we leave if till injury time before the team shows any urgency?

We put Bruno who is our most threatening passer as far away on the pitch from Rashford, our most threatening counter attacking player by choice in almost every big game. Instead we play one of the least creative midfielders in the league in Scott McTominay in the position to start and lead our counter attacks. What a shocker that it doesn't work. 90% of the time when we win the ball back against a side like City, one of Bruno or Rashford is likely going to be stuck deep tracking a runner and an irrelevant part of any counter attack. And its not like Bruno is good defensively on the wing or something either, he is much worse there.

 

[tjb]

Looks to me like getting excuses in before the inevitable sacking.

Honestly, for me, the proof really is in the reaction to losing Shaw and Martinez.

I actually liked what he was doing last season in setting up to an extent, but a few things have bothered me since the summer.

1. The preseason - similar to Ole, it almost felt like we didn't have one. He didn't work on truly implementing style and getting players adapted. For me, there was a real lack of urgency, even in his selections. For a team looking to win trophies, you cannot afford to be as casual as we were, that comes from Ten Haag, not the Glazers.

2. The impact of losing Luke Shaw and Malacia - I've seen teams have bad spells losing players, but not thier whole game coming apart due to simply losing a left back. This has always been an issue for me with ETH. It almost feels like every position needs to be in place for his system to work, which is a really bad sign as injuries will always happen. It's not just that we aren't as creative or sharp, it's that our entire style of play seems to have been ruined by losing a CB and lb. That's ridiculous. Somehow, we can't build up, hold possession or create chances because we lost our left back. I've seen City, Arsenal and Liverpool lose players. Barca have most their xi injured, yet their style of play is still evident. It's such a ridiculous notion and an excuse we shouldn't be accepting as a fanbase. Last year, we needed a specific profile of striker, now it's this.

3. This idea of changing style of play to suit the club. No one asked for that. The club brought him in for his style of play. My honest guess is that the pace and width of the league might not pair well with his tactics and he's noticed it.

4. Transfers - Again, the idea that we NEEDED on specific player from Barca to be able to play the way he wants to play is rubbish. Other teams have less talented midfields who can move the ball forward and hold possession. In addition, he had the option to buy that. He hasn't been held back. He chose Mount. Casemiro, even currently, should be enough for any manager. He bought Antony. He bought Malacia. At no other club would people look at the DOF, when the team has spent money, and blame him. If Newcastle's transfers didn't work, people would blame Howe. When Rodger's didn't work, they blamed Rodgers. Only at United are the club hierarchy blamed for getting the players in that the manager wanted, because every manager is the Messiah.

My conclusion is that, it's ok to sack managers when it isn't working. Expectations are set and quick decisions need to be made when they are not met. This isn't United in 1989, this is a global powerhouse. Madrid wouldn't be expected to lose to be out of the title race by October, neither should we. I think our issue is that we bring in managers to save us, when in truth, they should be consistently under fire until they prove themselves. We give them too much room and praise. Not everyone's Sir Alex. We need to watch performances, results and then come to a conclusion. We shouldnt have fans and board members saying, " we can only judge him properly after he has his real team or after his second or third season.

 

[Greck]

I'm still naive enough to say I'd let him restart the re-rebuild he just screwed up, cept with minimal input on the transfer side

 

[#07]

You cant blame the players -- he has brought into 12 players in 2 summer windows. His players.

No other manager has been supported this well since Fergie retired.

Sorry that's not enough.

We have one centre back that's good when pressed and also able to pass direct through the lines: Martinez. One.

To play Cruyff style football we'd need at least four. It's not enough being able to pull long switches out when teams back off and give you space. When you have players like Alvarez and Bernardo hunting you down, can you keep cool, turn out and dissect the press?

Our players can't.

To play Ajax football we'd probably need at least another dozen signings. It ain't happening.

 

[Infra-red]

Not sure what everyone is getting so excited about - we already knew all of this. Ten Hag said five months ago that he is trying to make us into a potent transition team. Did people just ignore that and think we were trying to become a possession side? Have these people ever seen us play - it is absolutely clear that possession football is not the strategy of the coaching staff.

 

[Cassidy]

You cant blame the players -- he has brought into 12 players in 2 summer windows. His players.

No other manager has been supported this well since Fergie retired.

How many of them have played together this season?

 

[tomaldinho1]

I would only join this team (as a manager) if I was given assurances I will be allowed to make those "tough" decisions. Otherwise, it really makes little sense to fire ETH.

I imagine some managers are very much like players unfortunately when assessing United, I am sure De Zerbi, as an example, backs himself but he also might think I could get a 4 year deal on life changing money and then worst thing that happens is I get a pay off when it goes tits up. ETH reportedly earns quadruple what De Zerbi earns for example and Ole, who earns about the same as ETH, got sacked and paid off to the tune of £7.5m.

 

[Greck]

We put Bruno who is our most threatening passer as far away on the pitch from Rashford, our most threatening counter attacking player by choice in almost every big game. Instead we play one of the least creative midfielders in the league in Scott McTominay in the position to start and lead our counter attacks. What a shocker that it doesn't work. 90% of the time when we win the ball back against a side like City, one of Bruno or Rashford is likely going to be stuck deep tracking a runner and an irrelevant part of any counter attack. And its not like Bruno is good defensively on the wing or something either, he is much worse there.

Bruno's lack of mobility is part his problem. You will rarely see a 10 so limited by their receiving position. Even when allowed to roam he is limited to lumping the ball

 

[mu4c_20le]

People won't want to hear it but he's right.

Remember when people used to mock Kieran McKenna and Michael Carrick? Clueless coaches who were just putting out the cones.

They leave Man Utd and look at that, turns out they do have ideas, they do have styles of play.

So why did we not see it at Man Utd?

Maybe it's not that we have crap coaches. Maybe it's not that Ten Hag has suddenly lost his mind?
Maybe it's that the Man Utd squad is a Frankenstein monster, with players who aren't that great but who fancy themselves and won't listen to a coach who they think they're bigger than?

Ten Hag has looked at the squad and assessed it's limits. People will say but he's spent X. And the shocking thing is, the squad is so f'd it's not changed the fundamentals:

We have a counter attacking squad. It can only really do one thing truly well and you would need massive, wholesale changes to get it anywhere close to a totalvoetball team.

Ten Hag won't like to hear it, but he had 400m to build a possession based team.

 

[Theo88]

How many of them have played together this season?

And how many are goalkeepers or loans

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Deluded and not the right man if this he was he said.

 

[Member 117152]

I don’t see the point if he says we cannot play like the reason he was brought into the club. A year and a half after been brought in.

I mean what have the club been doing for the past 2 years since Ralf got appointed playing a similar style of football?

He’s spent hundreds of millions already. How much do we need to play like Ajax? Ajax have like 1/10th of our budget. Shall we just buy Ajax coaches and youth players? Would be cheaper…

He brought in his Steve McClaren for starters. That was his decision. Was that to play Ajax type football? He bought Casemiro anything but an Ajax type midfielder so why was that?

I just don’t get it at this point.

 

[Cassidy]

I don’t see the point if he says we cannot play like the reason he was brought into the club. A year and a half after been brought in.

I mean what have the club been doing for the past 2 years since Ralf got appointed playing a similar style of football?

He’s spent hundreds of millions already. How much do we need to play like Ajax? Ajax have like 1/10th of our budget. Shall we just buy Ajax coaches and youth players? Would be cheaper…

He brought in his Steve McClaren for starters. That was his decision. Was that to play Ajax type football? He bought Casemiro anything but an Ajax type midfielder so why was that?

I just don’t get it at this point.

You have made a massive assumption here

 

[Member 117152]

I am pretty sure he tried his Ajax way in the very start, then changed his plans after that horrible start to last season. Disappointing.

This. I think you are spot on with the assessment.

End of the day maybe his football philosophy just isn’t that good… I mean if it was he wouldn’t abandon it.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

yeah im massively worried that we have yet another manager who is trying to go with the players we have here vs bringing in his style and getting those type of players. Things just will never change around here i guess.

 

[Member 117152]

yeah im massively worried that we have yet another manager who is trying to go with the players we have here vs bringing in his style and getting those type of players. Things just will never change around here i guess.

Bombed out Sancho a player you’d have thought would work best in an Ajax like side. He’d be great for them like at Dortmund

Brings in a one trick pony from Ajax for 90m. Plays him for 4 mins when already 3-0 down against our big rivals.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

Bombed out Sancho a player you’d have thought would work best in an Ajax like side. He’d be great for them like at Dortmund

nah sancho brought this on himself so i dont even think about him as a manchester united player. Dude clearly just doesnt have it mentally at this level, hence the problems at literally every club he has been at.

 

[Member 117152]

nah sancho brought this on himself so i dont even think about him as a manchester united player. Dude clearly just doesnt have it mentally at this level, hence the problems at literally every club he has been at.

Maybe you are right but he didn’t even play Antony yesterday either until we were dead and buried.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Bombed out Sancho a player you’d have thought would work best in an Ajax like side. He’d be great for them like at Dortmund

Brings in a one trick pony from Ajax for 90m. Plays him for 4 mins when already 3-0 down against our big rivals.

When I watched Sancho play for him, it's nothing like Dortmund. ETH doesn't set us up to play triangles or pass and move, etc. He prefers Antony holding on to the ball for ten seconds.

 

[SB16]

Well, makes sense now why our style of play looks just like Ole Ball, just a much less effective version of it.

To be honest, I've long held the thought that our players might just be a little thick tactically speaking, and probably lack the professionalism needed to be an elite team. It's why the first game under Rangnick can look as good as it did, and as bad as it did towards the end. Or why as soon as Ole wanted to play a more progressive style, with CBs pushed higher, it all started to fall apart. Or whatever is happening now. When it happens so often, and under so many managers with varying play styles and philosophies, it makes it hard to look past the quality of some of our players.

Weirdly, the time we actually looked like we had players recruited for a particular style of play was under Ole - clearly a side not meant to dominate, but to hurt teams in transition and without much "thinking" on the ball needed. It's clear that those same players struggle to follow more detailed instructions, which is why it's no wonder that ETH's left baffled as to why we "don't follow our principles" from the training ground on to the pitch.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

honestly at this point id love for EtH to realize that he is going down with the ship, and that he might as well just go full nuclear. Midfield 3 of mainoo, gore, hannibal. Tell them to pass and move. Pass and move. Just constantly passing and moving. Garnacho goes on the left and tell him the same. Feed hojlund up front with quality service. No idea who to go on the right as i dont really rate pellistri and antony hasnt been up for it. Not like weve been looking great with our "stars" out there at least we could show some desire out there with the youth

 

[Telsim]

So, we are looking to play a counter-pressing direct style of football, presumably. To that end, we started by sacking and driving away the guy who is credited with developing and championing that kind of style. And gave all the power to a guy who has never done it before.

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Ace of Spades]

The problem is we look clueless and shit. There is no actual style. Nothing.

I would have more patience if we had any style, right now there is nothing.

 

[Denis79]

If he doesn't want us to play like Ajax, why are we buying anything and everything from Ajax? Don't get it.

 

[mintyred]

Very strange quotes. Most top managers have a specific style of play, but Ten Hag is playing based on the players he has available. It’s not working and that philosophy is disturbing to say the least.
It sounds like he’s sacrificing what he wants to apprase players and the “UTD DNA”.

I remember Rangnick said he regretted not implementing his style fully and partially adapting to the players. If they spoke.

 

[Irwin99]

I know it's unfair and reductive but my one abiding memory of Ole's brand of football is the Lindelof/Bruno pass over the top for Rashford to chase in behind where there was a lot of space. It's just etched on my memory the amount of times Lindelof did that pass.

I think my abiding memory of EtH's attacking style will be the Casemrio/Bruno hoof into space for Rashfiord to chase. Casemiro- a DM who usually averages around 70-80% passing accuracy per game launching it into space in a quick punt up the field. Can be very effective when it works (see below, the first goal) but it's so basic and when the movement isn't on we look clueless and struggle to create.




Surely it's not unreasonable to want something more? Our attack is appalling and has been for years. If EtH can't sort that out then we all know where this is ending up.