Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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Sancho seems like a completely entitled tosspot. Paid millions a year to train and play a bit of football and can't even be arsed to turn up on time. Then claims he's being scapegoated. Bin him off.
 
The word is an automatic red flag in any discussion for me, simple. If you hate the term, use another.

That wasn’t the conversation nor is it a high bar to set.

Shaw fits the discussion perfectly as a player that has returned from off seasons continually overweight, plays well for a time then all is forgiven - rinse & repeat.

So do you find the post ‘weird’ or do you want me to add Maguire & Shaw to the list?

The post in question states, ‘The way you guys speak about football players has undertones that make me uncomfortable’, why is it my list of players that bothers you most instead of that point?
That poster wrote about “football players” but it was you who came up with some random list. Again with Shaw you have a lot to criticise despite him being endlessly better for United than Sancho. Your list lost all credibility by including Sancho and at the same time leaving out other football players who have suffered much more by fans and media while actually playing better for the club than Sancho. So yes, if you had included Maguire and the others then fair enough, but you didn’t.
Or to be in line with what the other poster said, guys/fans have been speaking about Maguire, Lingard and Shaw in a way which should make other fans way more uncomfortable than anything being spoken about Sancho. Seriously this guy has had it really easy with fans and media and still calls himself a scapegoat. And as seen here, some people fall for it.
Anyway, he seems to be a lost case, too many attitude issues which won’t just disappear long term.
 
The fact you’ve used the word ‘woke’ to describe yourself is ironic. This isn’t a conversation we should be having my guy.

Lingard is a damn good shout tbf, add him in retrospect.

Maguire spent 3 years being protected by this place, if you want to ignore that fact based on the fact people have eventually come round to the fact he was never good enough is in stark contrast to the others listed.

Players I like? Lukaku? Pogba? Alright mate.
:wenger:

Benitez.
 
Sancho really needs to feck right off.

He's displayed literally nothing this season and last season that makes me question EtH's decision. Just how entitled is this little asshole?
 
The word is an automatic red flag in any discussion for me, simple. If you hate the term, use another.
I mean, I'm not sure why you should dictate what terms I should or shouldn't use, but OK. Why don't you just come out and say what you actually mean, which is 'there is a racial element to the criticism that all these guys that I have listed'? I'm not even going to get into that because clearly some people are fecking racist, but the main thing that links most of those players that you chose to list (with the exception of Rashford, but you haven't explained why he was on your list anyway) is that they were signed for lots of money and turned out to be wasters.

Your point about Harry Maguire being 'protected for 3 years' by United fans is just pure bullshit. Use the search function and find any number of threads going back to 2018 questioning his ability. He has been shown to be the most abused player on Twitter and had a bomb threat made against him last year.

Shaw fits the discussion perfectly as a player that has returned from off seasons continually overweight, plays well for a time then all is forgiven - rinse & repeat.

Shaw has been superb for the last couple of years, so not sure what you mean by the 'rinse and repeat' comment? The difference between Shaw and Maguire, and the guys on your list - apart from the obvious point that you are trying to make - is that they both give the impression that they actually care, and that goes a long way with a fanbase. Even when Maguire is comedically bad you couldn't put it down to a lack of professionalism, or commitment.

Pogba talked about wanting to leave United every time he went on international duty. Lukaku can't seem to stay at a club for more than a season. Martial will be due a testimonial in 2 years time and in that time has managed 62 goals. Sancho is paid £350k per week and cannot be arsed to get up in time for training. Would you want any of them in the trenches with you? This is not racism,.
 
If there's any truth in any of the stories that have come out today we need to boot him out of the club as soon as possible. People wonder why we keep having seasons like the one we're having when there's nothing but constant dickheads in the playing squad.
That's what I'm thinking too. The more I've read, he's done well to be where he is with his work ethic and the impression I'm getting is that things can definitely get worse. Unless it's on liw wages and in a team where he's guaranteed minutes it just doesn't seem like a sensible move for any club. You don't have to do much due diligence to see the pattern of behaviour and now a lot of reported issues at United.
 
Honestly, who's running to the mail telling them this? Makes the club look shambolic and the manager look weak and lacking support from above. Terrible story.
Who does it shine a good light on? Thats how you know where it comes from

Why the hell he wasnt ordered take that post down immediately i have no idea, the tail well and truly wags the dog here. No fear of authority whatsoever
 
I mean, I'm not sure why you should dictate what terms I should or shouldn't use, but OK. Why don't you just come out and say what you actually mean, which is 'there is a racial element to the criticism that all these guys that I have listed'? I'm not even going to get into that because clearly some people are fecking racist, but the main thing that links most of those players that you chose to list (with the exception of Rashford, but you haven't explained why he was on your list anyway) is that they were signed for lots of money and turned out to be wasters.

Your point about Harry Maguire being 'protected for 3 years' by United fans is just pure bullshit. Use the search function and find any number of threads going back to 2018 questioning his ability. He has been shown to be the most abused player on Twitter and had a bomb threat made against him last year.



Shaw has been superb for the last couple of years, so not sure what you mean by the 'rinse and repeat' comment? The difference between Shaw and Maguire, and the guys on your list - apart from the obvious point that you are trying to make - is that they both give the impression that they actually care, and that goes a long way with a fanbase. Even when Maguire is comedically bad you couldn't put it down to a lack of professionalism, or commitment.

Pogba talked about wanting to leave United every time he went on international duty. Lukaku can't seem to stay at a club for more than a season. Martial will be due a testimonial in 2 years time and in that time has managed 62 goals. Sancho is paid £350k per week and cannot be arsed to get up in time for training. Would you want any of them in the trenches with you? This is not racism,.
I’m not dictating the terms you should or shouldn’t use, I’m dictating [as I have done previously on here] the posts I won’t interact with that use that word.

I won’t lie, I’ve scrolled past your post & see ‘This is not racism’ above what I’m typing. Funnily enough no one has said it is. Refer to the sentence in the post I quoted, there is certainly a level of comfort with a certain type of rhetoric for a certain type of player.

The defence that people call Shaw fat & [finally] call Maguire shite so everyone gets criticism doesn’t address the sentence this all begun over.
 
Our very own Lingard :drool:

No but seriously if a pro footballer can’t even make training on time they can feck right off.
 
Always late for training, a slugish effort in training when he does turn up… then hes the victim as he was at Dortmand. ETH did his best to help him last season
The club have got to back the manager and get rid

what a waste of a talented footballer.
 
Isn't vacation time typically planned in advance with management or HR for any organisation of a certain size to avoid those sort of issues (being short-handed in summer, etc) ? Besides Sancho did not suddenly go on vacation, it happens to be an international break and he has not been called up, he's not been "rewarded" any further than any non-international player.

As to what I do in my free time, yeah my boss can kindly bugger off and keep his judgements for himself.

I appreciate you can argue that football is not just any job and that it at least has a public image persona component. That's true but in my opinion the only salient part to criticize is Sancho's use of public media to kneejerk against mild criticism from his gaffer. Any other time only a fraction of people would read/care about his IG feed unrelated content and rightly so.

As a supporter all I really wish is to see Sancho play closer to his ceiling if ten Hag thinks he's fit enough to be part of the squad. I don't mind people judging harshly his performances, I think that's earned.

My biggest question in all of this is why the situation wasn't handled (or pre-handled) within 24-48h and I don't know why it wasn't exactly.

Terrible example as the norm in the overwhemling majority of workplaces is exactly the opposite of what you are describing.

1) If the company grant me leave, I get to take leave. If they grant it in their busy period, they fecked up.
2) My boss can absolutely get fecked if he thinks what I do on that vacation is in the slightest bit his business.
3) I, being a normal person, obviously wouldn't have any issue with my colleague taking the vacation they're entitled to and would expect them to enjoy it as they see fit. I would be a deeply weird person if I thought I was entitled to object in any way to them taking vacation they were entitled to or criticise how they chose to spend that free time as it is none of my business.

In every job, I've worked in, my boss doesn't approve my vacations. As long as I have them, I'm entitled to take them whenever, same as Sancho has done. If my boss doesn't like it, he can get fecked, which is the point you both have made. However, in return, I too can expect to get fecked when marginal decisions about promotions/layoffs are made in the future.

Anecdotal, but during the height of the layoffs in the US at the end of last year/beginning of this year, I spoke to two different managers from different companies who included people on their list based on similar factors. It's a thin line between being OK or not, but managers are human, they will definitely remember.

:lol: You gotta be pulling my leg

I am not.
 
How many alarm clocks can you buy with £350,000 I wonder?

What he needs is not just a bunch of alarm clocks. He's the type of person in need a US Marine drill instructor-type of person to properly put some kind of order in his life.

You will not laugh. You will not cry. You will learn by the numbers. I will teach you.
 
This explains a lot
In the US taking too much vacation will absolutely be used against you in the case of job layoffs. Tech companies now have this scam called unlimited PTO which is meant to weed out anyone who thinks they can seriously have unlimited PTO.
 
You either have something meaningful to say or not. I have engaged in good faith, but it seems like you just want to goof around.

I mean, you're the one that quoted with what I thought was a joke, apparently it wasn't and then you said you're based out of the US, which to me shed light into why you see things the way you do. Plenty people have already replied to the initial post you quoted me with - I'll stick to chuckling because what can I really say to someone that asks this seriously: "Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?"

From anecdotal experience - your work culture and employee rights are considerably different to ours - and the UK is substantially behind other European nations at that.

Between swimming in shark infested waters or working in the US or Japan, I'd take my chances with the sharks every time. It is what it is, be easy.

In the US taking too much vacation will absolutely be used against you in the case of job layoffs. Tech companies now have this scam called unlimited PTO which is meant to weed out anyone who thinks they can seriously have unlimited PTO.

Yeah, that's why I said it explained a lot. Crazy place.
 
I think there are laws that stop this.

I listened to a podcast where Alan Shearer said that he tried to do a similar thing when he was Newcastle manger, but he couldn't legally enforce it.
He could do it another way. Say to all players 'if you come late you miss the next game and train with the kids every day you are late. You also stop behind to make up the time you missed'. He would soon learn. When TH was then interviewed why Sancho wasnt in the lineup, he should tell the media the truth. 'My rule for every player is you come late for training you dont play the next game' Sancho wouldnt have a leg to stand on
 
In every job, I've worked in, my boss doesn't approve my vacations. As long as I have them, I'm entitled to take them whenever, same as Sancho has done. If my boss doesn't like it, he can get fecked, which is the point you both have made. However, in return, I too can expect to get fecked when marginal decisions about promotions/layoffs are made in the future.

Anecdotal, but during the height of the layoffs in the US at the end of last year/beginning of this year, I spoke to two different managers from different companies who included people on their list based on similar factors. It's a thin line between being OK or not, but managers are human, they will definitely remember.



I am not.

That sounds unethical/illegal. Most vacation time (not including "unlimited PTO" is included in benefit packages. Being penalized for using your vacation can get an employer in a lot of legal/reputational trouble, yes in the states.

Penalizing someone for using their vacation is as egregious as penalizing someone for using their sick days or being on maternity leave.

I'm not sure why the bolded is an expectation of yours but it's definitely bottom floor level. Your vacation time is yours to use as you fit, and no, you should not expect your employer to penalize you for taking full advantage.
 
I mean, you're the one that quoted with what I thought was a joke, apparently it wasn't and then you said you're based out of the US, which to me shed light into why you see things the way you do. Plenty people have already replied to the initial post you quoted me with - I'll stick to chuckling because what can I really say to someone that asks this seriously: "Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?"

From anecdotal experience - your work culture and employee rights are considerably different to ours - and the UK is substantially behind other European nations at that.

Between swimming in shark infested waters or working in the US or Japan, I'd take my chances with the sharks every time. It is what it is, be easy.



Yeah, that's why I said it explained a lot. Crazy place.

I've worked for 3 employers in the US and in every single one they've begged us to use our vacation. My bosses all forbade me from checking in while on vacation, even if there were outstanding tasks.

I can accept Sancho's case has an optics angle to it to an extent (ultimately he is on vacation and all that matters is his effort on company time) but I don't get the parallels to everyday people being shamed out of fully enjoying their vacation time.
 
That sounds unethical/illegal. Most vacation time (not including "unlimited PTO" is included in benefit packages. Being penalized for using your vacation can get an employer in a lot of legal/reputational trouble, yes in the states.

Penalizing someone for using their vacation is as egregious as penalizing someone for using their sick days or being on maternity leave.

I'm not sure why the bolded is an expectation of yours but it's definitely bottom floor level. Your vacation time is yours to use as you fit, and no, you should not expect your employer to penalize you for taking full advantage.
It is illegal but it doesn't matter since in the states you can be fired without cause. So if a company is conducting layoffs (I think it's called something like redundancies in the UK) they can create a performance metric that would penalize those who took more vacation (making this up but a company could prioritize by the least amount of billable hours). I've been through layoffs) and I'm convinced people who actually use vacation days are first on the chopping block.
 
That sounds unethical/illegal. Most vacation time (not including "unlimited PTO" is included in benefit packages. Being penalized for using your vacation can get an employer in a lot of legal/reputational trouble, yes in the states.

Penalizing someone for using their vacation is as egregious as penalizing someone for using their sick days or being on maternity leave.

I'm not sure why the bolded is an expectation of yours but it's definitely bottom floor level. Your vacation time is yours to use as you fit, and no, you should not expect your employer to penalize you for taking full advantage.

You're repeating what I said. I mentioned that you are entitled to it. However, it factor's into manager's thoughts, whether malicious or not. It won't be acknowledged publicly, including by the managers I spoke to, but it's what it is.

And at least two of my previous employers have won sector awards for best places to work. My current employer is one that a lot of people in the industry will tell you is their dream job.


I mean, you're the one that quoted with what I thought was a joke, apparently it wasn't and then you said you're based out of the US, which to me shed light into why you see things the way you do. Plenty people have already replied to the initial post you quoted me with - I'll stick to chuckling because what can I really say to someone that asks this seriously: "Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?"

From anecdotal experience - your work culture and employee rights are considerably different to ours - and the UK is substantially behind other European nations at that.

Between swimming in shark infested waters or working in the US or Japan, I'd take my chances with the sharks every time. It is what it is, be easy.



Yeah, that's why I said it explained a lot. Crazy place.

Fair enough, cheers!
 
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I've worked for 3 employers in the US and in every single one they've begged us to use our vacation. My bosses all forbade me from checking in while on vacation, even if there were outstanding tasks.

I can accept Sancho's case has an optics angle to it to an extent (ultimately he is on vacation and all that matters is his effort on company time) but I don't get the parallels to everyday people being shamed out of fully enjoying their vacation time.
You worked for some good employers. I will say things seem to be changing, especially post-pandemic, but my experience is the higher the salary the less you are encouraged you are to take vacations.
 
"Unlimited PTO" exists so that companies don't have to carry a balance sheet liability for accrued PTO or pay out PTO days that haven't been taken when the employee leaves the company. That's all there really is to it.
 
Strawberry generation kid. Mentally weak, easily squashed. Whine and point fingers at everyone but himself.
 
"Unlimited PTO" exists so that companies don't have to carry a balance sheet liability for accrued PTO or pay out PTO days that haven't been taken when the employee leaves the company. That's all there really is to it.

!00% correct, and every study shows that it leads to fewer day off being taken. It's an absolute scam and should be a red flag when looking at potential employers.
 
It is illegal but it doesn't matter since in the states you can be fired without cause. So if a company is conducting layoffs (I think it's called something like redundancies in the UK) they can create a performance metric that would penalize those who took more vacation (making this up but a company could prioritize by the least amount of billable hours). I've been through layoffs) and I'm convinced people who actually use vacation days are first on the chopping block.

You can't be fired for an illegal reason. I mean, you can, but you open yourself up to all kinds of legal bother.

Companies operate with the knowledge that they can be subpoenaed at any time, and business records are preserved for that very reason. No reputable company is inserting vacation time usage, or anything unrelated to performance/compensation, in their metric to determine layoffs. It can be subpoenaed at any time by a disgruntled employee that was laid off, or by a state labor department. It's much easier to find people underperforming relative to their compensation.
 
I think we need to include certain contractual clauses to guard against this kind of player in the future. Late for training X times a year, automatic grounds for termination of contract (no salary to be paid by club) and the player has to pay damages for loss of his value due to going on a freebie.
 
You can't be fired for an illegal reason. I mean, you can, but you open yourself up to all kinds of legal bother.

Companies operate with the knowledge that they can be subpoenaed at any time, and business records are preserved for that very reason. No reputable company is inserting vacation time usage, or anything unrelated to performance/compensation, in their metric to determine layoffs. It can be subpoenaed at any time by a disgruntled employee that was laid off, or by a state labor department. It's much easier to find people underperforming relative to their compensation.
They don't have to be explicit about it (see the billable hours example), but taking too much vacation time can absolutely leave your position vulnerable. I've seen it happen.
 
Another player that needs to just feck off. He will never meet the standards of being a United player. Classic modern player. Instead of taking the comments from Ten Hag and getting after it, he takes to media with a 'woe is me' plea. GTO of the club.
 
I mean, you're the one that quoted with what I thought was a joke, apparently it wasn't and then you said you're based out of the US, which to me shed light into why you see things the way you do. Plenty people have already replied to the initial post you quoted me with - I'll stick to chuckling because what can I really say to someone that asks this seriously: "Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?"

From anecdotal experience - your work culture and employee rights are considerably different to ours - and the UK is substantially behind other European nations at that.

Between swimming in shark infested waters or working in the US or Japan, I'd take my chances with the sharks every time. It is what it is, be easy.



Yeah, that's why I said it explained a lot. Crazy place.
Yeah, same here. I like our European way where you work to live. In USA you live to work. They have absolutely ruthless mentality.
But then again.....that is why they are richest country in the world. Win some, lose some.
 
Thats obviously a dig toward Sancho whose opted to take holiday even after his manager publicy criticized him for lack of efforts in training. It's good see the club have finally taken manager's side after woodwards debacle with previous managers.
 
Absolutely not. Manager must have 100% control who to pick on match day. And that is it. In everything else he must work with DoF. This is situation where DoF or CEO must intervene and decide what is the best for the club.

I am not saying that Erik is wrong in this but why not try to resolve this?
Why wouldn't the DOF try and find a solution to a problem between a manager and a player? Isn't that his job?
So you actually want the club to let the manager and player keep fighting each other, hurting the team and dressing room ?

I will never understand our fans treating manager as a God or something.
Because it's over a training ground matter, something which the only outcome is the manager gives the player an ultimatum, fight for your place or you're being sold, it's as simple as that as ten Hag is trying to set stick to rules he's made. The DoF should never be involved in training ground matters, or a player attempting to undermine the manager.

@el3mel not a god, just allowing him to keep his authority over the players and trusting his judgement.

The only way to resolve this is for Sancho to gain the managers trust again by training to the expected level, that's it.
 
Surely, if Sancho is systematically late and performs poorly in training, there are disciplinary grounds for United to take some action?
 
Surely, if Sancho is systematically late and performs poorly in training, there are disciplinary grounds for United to take some action?
Probably depends on how late he is or if he's just more generally the last one to arrive. Say he is meant to be at a meeting at 9am every day and his average time is 9.02am, not sure how much action they could take. It's not good practice but I wonder how much can be done if the margins aren't that great.
 
Enough stories have come out now. This has obviously been an ongoing thing with him for quite some time and won't suddenly change. He is finished here. He will be loaned out in January and then sold in the summer. As he should be. That is, of course, assuming Ten Hag lasts that long and that Sancho actually wants to leave. Just wish it had happened this summer instead.

Worst transfer in the history of the club, no doubt about it. What a shame.
 
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