Erik ten Hag vs Sancho | Sancho back in full training

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stefan92 said:
You might be right, but than it wasn't an accountability culture shock when he arrived and was shit playing under Ole.

And could you please stop repeating the outdated info about the BL funneling all it's best players to Bayern? It used to be true but look at the transfers in recent years and realize that this has changed. Big transfers usually go from BL to PL or La Liga, Bayern signing big transfers from all over Europe.
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He was better under Solskjaer but he’s never done anything outside of a good 20 minute spell in a few games to justify his value. The fact of the matter is teams set up different against United and English teams are much more organised in defence than the likes of the Bundesliga where defence seems to be an afterthought.

Okay sorry, best German talent then.
 
crossy1686 said:
Well there you go, you’ve answered your own question as to why it’s worse at United now than it was anywhere else. Ten Hag is implementing a culture of accountability and he doesn’t like it.

You may not think that, and then you read that Dortmunds coach used to run to Sancho’s hotel room to wake him before their meetings started and ask yourself where these ‘standards’ are at Dortmund.

The PL is highly competitive, how many teams in the PL can regularly sell their best players and still finish second in the league? When you have a league that regularly funnels its best talent to the best team in the league the standards of a team like Dortmund and the Bundesliga will always be a mockery. Any players that stick around at Dortmund for more than a couple of seasons do so because they can’t get a move to a big club with standards, they’re not a football team, they’re a business disguised as a football team.
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There will obviously be differences in the scenarios, but Ousmane Dembele was a similarly talented, overpaid and unprofessional Dortmund product that was immature and had difficulties adjusting to a bigger club.

He was looking on the outs at the Barcelona, but Xavi was at least able to extract some value out of him in terms of performances and actually getting a fee upon his departure when he was sold as opposed to him leaving on a free transfer.

Do you think Sancho should just be jettisoned regardless of the cost, both in terms of forgone contributions on the pitch as well as financially? Or is there some salvage game that can be managed?

United aren't as broke as Barca were, so perhaps they can afford to just throw the whole player out and not worry about extracting any residual value.
 
alexthelion said:
It wouldn't have been on the back pages if Sacho hadn't posted what he did.

Otherwise it was a one-liner that would have been forgotten in 10 minutes.
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Of course. But Sancho is a manchild. Anyone could have guessed that he wouldn't have reacted well to perceived public criticism.
Ten Hag is an intelligent guy who should know by know how to get the best out of each of his players.

Now if he thinks Sancho is a lost cause, fine. Sell him when you can. Don't make that task harder by publicly criticizing him. Protect your assets.

It's a bit like putting a brick through your own window, just before you put your house.
 
crossy1686 said:
He was better under Solskjaer but he’s never done anything outside of a good 20 minute spell in a few games to justify his value. The fact of the matter is teams set up different against United and English teams are much more organised in defence than the likes of the Bundesliga where defence seems to be an afterthought.

Okay sorry, best German talent then.
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Not even most of best German talent currently is moving to Bayern but to Dortmund, which might be related to the sad state of German youth football at the moment (which essentially results in Bayern not seeing a lot of interesting players in the BL).

And while I disagree that defending is an afterthought in the BL you are definitely right that there are different playing styles in favour in different leagues and Sancho might just be a bad fit in that regard.
 
stefan92 said:
Not even most of best German talent currently is moving to Bayern but to Dortmund, which might be related to the sad state of German youth football at the moment (which essentially results in Bayern not seeing a lot of interesting players in the BL).

And while I disagree that defending is an afterthought in the BL you are definitely right that there are different playing styles in favour in different leagues and Sancho might just be a bad fit in that regard.
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Without wishing to derail the thread, how has that happened? Germany sorting out their youth recruitment and winning a World Cup was what spurred England on to copy and revamp theirs bring through the talent we’ve been seeing for the last 5+ years.

The difference in the style in the leagues is ultimately what Sancho benefited from in Germany in my opinion. More time on the ball, less organised defences etc. there’s also the added scrutiny of playing for a team like United where you can do something and be in the spotlight for months, whereas at other clubs if you do something like this people just forget you exist after a couple of weeks and you’re free to play FIFA until your contract runs out.

I’m also under the impression Sancho has done this purposefully to force a move. It’s not worked out for him here, he’s looked out of his depth and like he’s feeling the pressure whenever he’s played, polar opposite to someone like Bellingham. There’s a guy on here as well who claims he works at United’s training ground (believe what you want) but he says Sancho’s timekeeping got worse and worse to the point the manager had to call him out on it and drop him. That sounds like the behaviour of someone who doesn’t give and feck and has given up to me.

So yeah, I think it’s best for all involved if he just leaves and becomes a decent player for a team like Dortmund and realises that it’s as close to the sun as he should attempt to fly.
 
About the issue of protecting a player's value and the comparison with Xavi at Barcelona, i believe it's worth mentioning that in 22-23 Sancho, even with his midseason rehabilitation trip to the Netherlands, had more starts and played about 300 minutes more than Dembélé. To suggest that there hasn't been an attempt to integrate him into the first team plans is ridiculous.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
There will obviously be differences in the scenarios, but Ousmane Dembele was a similarly talented, overpaid and unprofessional Dortmund product that was immature and had difficulties adjusting to a bigger club.

He was looking on the outs at the Barcelona, but Xavi was at least able to extract some value out of him in terms of performances and actually getting a fee upon his departure when he was sold as opposed to him leaving on a free transfer.

Do you think Sancho should just be jettisoned regardless of the cost, both in terms of forgone contributions on the pitch as well as financially? Or is there some salvage game that can be managed?

United aren't as broke as Barca were, so perhaps they can afford to just throw the whole player out and not worry about extracting any residual value.
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I think United will want to recover some value for him and the fee touted this summer was £65m, I think next summer they’ll accept around £50m for him if he hasn’t played at any point and is still here.

There will be a club desperate enough to sign him in January, he might even agree to go to Saudi Arabia for 6 months to a year then leave there to come back to Europe, don’t rule that out.

That’s the thing with a new coach, they want to give everyone a chance again and that’s what Sancho is hoping for, then he can be like the rest of the dead wood and coast along for another 2 seasons on a big contract while doing the bare minimum and getting £350k a week. Regardless of who the manager is next season, he cannot stay at the club.
 
DJ_21 said:
The whole situation got out of hand. ETH could have and should have spoke privately to Sancho behind closed doors. Go in as rough as you want behind closed doors. I don’t think Fergie would have ever called out a player. We could have at least tried to get sancho into some sort of form leading up to January and then by all means sell him when he’ll have more teams interested. Who’s gonna be interested in a player that teams now think doesn’t put in effort in training and someone that’s not played for months. You never heard Dortmund managers come out and say he doesn’t work hard in training… he got started week in week out for Dortmund. It could be a case of Sancho not trying in training as he feels it’s pointless because ETH is another Ole who plays people based on relationships other than form. Rashfords been out of form all season but when as he ever been dropped? Antony hasn’t exactly lit up the league either but he’ll start most games when fit. So players are gonna be wondering it doesn’t matter how well I do in training, I still ain’t getting picked. This isn’t me defending Sancho btw. Just a theory…
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This isn’t me arguing against, but a few points:

1. Yes! Why have Ten Hag never spoken to Sancho behind closed doors? That is so stupid! You would think he did, wouldn’t you, at some point? That was silly. Or … are you sure he didn’t, btw?

2. I agree, Ferguson would never have singled out a player publically, never. At least never unless he just did anyway. Like with Beckham, Ronaldo, Johnny Evans, Rooney, Smalling, Nani etc.

3. Spot on again! We should try to get Sancho into some sort of form. Personally, I would send him on a specialized fitness prgram in The Netherlands or something. And offer him to come in early for preseason. And ask him to try to keep up with Dan Gore in training. Why haven’t we tried that?

4. I have never heard a Dortmund coach say Sancho didn’t work hard in training, you are so right about that. I read that his first coach demoted him to the youth team, yes, it’s true, and I read Favre saying to the press ‘he is talented, yes, but talent is 10% and hard work is 90%. He has a lot of work to do in traing to be more consistent’. I saw him pulled him off after 36 mins against Bayern once. But I never heard it.

5. I feel this is where you really hit the nail on the head. Sancho might not be trying in training, because he feels it’s pointless. That’s it, isn’t it. He feels it’s pointless. He thinks his scintillating match performances should see him played ahead of Rashford and Antony, because he has been clearly better than them or wot? I mean, would you bother with training hard if you weren’t selected to play? Ok, so 90% of professional footballers would. But Sancho isn’t a 90% footballer, is he? He’s a 10% footballer. Pure talent. Hard work is for the 90%.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
About the issue of protecting a player's value and the comparison with Xavi at Barcelona, i believe it's worth mentioning that in 22-23 Sancho, even with his midseason rehabilitation trip to the Netherlands, had more starts and played about 300 minutes more than Dembélé. To suggest that there hasn't been an attempt to integrate him into the first team plans is ridiculous.
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The Dembele rehabilitation started in the back half of 21-22 when he struck up that partnership with Aubameyang. Plus Dembele is very injury prone and misses a lot of time and I never suggested that there hasn't been an attempt to integrate Sancho into the first team plans. Where has that come from?
 
pascell said:
Hakimi joined Dortmund July 2018 and left June 2020, I make that out to be two seasons, get yo facts right son
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Ouch, my bad. Still my point stands that he showed strong performances no matter who he played with in Dortmund (not every setup worked, but several different did).
crossy1686 said:
Without wishing to derail the thread, how has that happened? Germany sorting out their youth recruitment and winning a World Cup was what spurred England on to copy and revamp theirs bring through the talent we’ve been seeing for the last 5+ years.
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Maybe it was never that good. Certain qualities and positions were developed quite badly and rarely under this setup and by not continuously adjusting to the development if the game the quality surely did not get better.

When we talk about the WC2014 we should not forget that that German team was lead by Miroslav Klose, at that time I believe 36 years old, who was a relic of times before the reform, because he was the only trusted true striker in the squad. We still haven't found a proper replacement for him a decade later.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
The Dembele rehabilitation started in the back half of 21-22 when he struck up that partnership with Aubameyang. Plus Dembele is very injury prone and misses a lot of time and I never suggested that there hasn't been an attempt to integrate Sancho into the first team plans. Where has that come from?
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The only thing that decreases Sancho's value at the moment is his own petulant behaviour. Xavi did nothing exceptional for Dembélé, who looked lacklustre at best in a two-horse league. Barcelona got lucky with PSG showing interest and they were probably relieved to get 1/3 of what they had paid for him back. ETH doesn't have the luxury of knowing that the worse thing that can happen is finish second. And even if he jettisons Sancho, any club that will show interest will be because of his BvB years. They will completely disregard his United days. This is his only value as a player.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
I mean, isn't that the point? If Sancho is such a supposedly nothing player, why even bother creating yet another headache over him with everything else going on? What of value was to be achieved for the betterment of the team overall in that moment?

Just deflect, move on and focus on the many other issues at the club. Even if Sancho hasn't performed on the pitch he is still capable of disrupting squad harmony, adding to scrutiny and adding more pressure in an already-tense environment.

If he is a non-entity as you say, then ETH's answer has contributed to making a non-entity an entity, judging by the length of this thread. The question here isn't even over the decision to ship Sancho out or not. If that is the desired course of action, you still have to manage it the right way.
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Ten Hag has managed us pretty darn well in his time at the club. He’ll make some mistakes and yes we’ll have some poor runs of form.

Get a new attacker in during January if possible for Sancho. The club just moves on. I’m just bitterly disappointed how Sancho’s move turned out given his past potential but he’s no loss at all overall.
 
Stabra said:
It was indeed just a hypothetical scenario. I wanted to know if people think Sancho is beyond saving and will never return to the highest level, or if it is still possible in another team with another manager. And if the answer is the latter, then what is being missed at MU to integrate such a fragile character?
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Nobody knows what his potential is or isn’t now. Odds are he’s more likely to fall off than thrive in the Prem especially given the evidence of 2 years worth of displays.

He should move to Barcelona or in a dream scenario Bayern if they’d take him back to Germany. They probably wouldn’t but who knows.

He’s not the player we need. Get rid, no loss. Wish him luck. Super simple.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
I mean, isn't that the point? If Sancho is such a supposedly nothing player, why even bother creating yet another headache over him with everything else going on? What of value was to be achieved for the betterment of the team overall in that moment?

Just deflect, move on and focus on the many other issues at the club. Even if Sancho hasn't performed on the pitch he is still capable of disrupting squad harmony, adding to scrutiny and adding more pressure in an already-tense environment.

If he is a non-entity as you say, then ETH's answer has contributed to making a non-entity an entity, judging by the length of this thread. The question here isn't even over the decision to ship Sancho out or not. If that is the desired course of action, you still have to manage it the right way.
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To be fair this is probably the most boring thread on the internet and proof that people can argue the same two points for 136 pages and counting whilst adding nothing more of substance to the debate.
 
VP89 said:
What do you think "do more" means?

Your question is BS, "which manager said the exact same thing and not in any other words :lol: "

We get you have an agenda to go at Ten Hag but come on son, do better!
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"Do more" can mean that he hasn't shown enough of his qualities to oust another player.

I think when you specifically say that a player is not up to the level in training, there is an implication that the player is lazy. Even if that was not intended.
To be labeled that, it cuts to the player's personal pride, even if it may be the cold, hard truth.

Besides, we don't even know if what Ten Hag is saying is true. Sancho seems to believe there is more to it. So much so, that he is not apologizing for what he came out with on Twitter. Should that be discounted, just because he has had issues in the past?

I have no Ten Hag agenda. I'm desperate for him to succeed. But I think his faults and mistakes are worthy of discussion.
 
gaffs said:
"Do more" can mean that he hasn't shown enough of his qualities to oust another player.

I think when you specifically say that a player is not up to the level in training, there is an implication that the player is lazy. Even if that was not intended.
To be labeled that, it cuts to the player's personal pride, even if it may be the cold, hard truth.

Besides, we don't even know if what Ten Hag is saying is true. Sancho seems to believe there is more to it. So much so, that he is not apologizing for what he came out with on Twitter. Should that be discounted, just because he has had issues in the past?

I have no Ten Hag agenda. I'm desperate for him to succeed. But I think his faults and mistakes are worthy of discussion.
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It is abundantly clear what Mourinho implied when he said Mkhi needed to do more.

You are the only one pleading ignorance, it's quite unbelievable really.

There is also a lot of publically available information to imply Ten Hag is accurate in his assessment. We technically never know 100%, but that doesn't mean we can't have our own opinions on what is likely the case.
 
VP89 said:
It is abundantly clear what Mourinho implied when he said Mkhi needed to do more.

You are the only one pleading ignorance, it's quite unbelievable really.

There is also a lot of publically available information to imply Ten Hag is accurate in his assessment. We technically never know 100%, but that doesn't mean we can't have our own opinions on what is likely the case.
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No, it implies that Sancho has a spotty record. Not that Ten Hag is accurate.

As you say... "We technically never know 100%"
 
Give no thought whatsoever to recouping any significant transfer value. If we have to let Sancho go on a free and that he takes his contract with him with no further obligation on our part, get it done. This has turned out to be an even more disastrous acquisition than even Sancho and Memphis.

Do we do no psychological assessment of these players whatsoever?
 
gaffs said:
No, it implies that Sancho has a spotty record. Not that Ten Hag is accurate.

As you say... "We technically never know 100%"
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Yes, but to rest on the "we don't know 100%" premise is flawed. You might as well literally pack up and stop debating most footballing related matters.

What we do know sancho has videos being lazy, has been called out by the Dortmund chief, I think twice, has been questioned by Southgate and now Ten Hag. He has said he needs to work on himself on top.

That is more than spotty. And for you to ask what other manager has done xyz, a better question is - which manager gave a player with a known record of poor training a 3 month break to get his shit together.

Ten hag already went above and beyond before his reply to a simple question. Fergie Pep or Mo would have likely dropped him well before that.
 
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Sancho should be offloaded the minute we get the chance. Just take the hit on him and get rid.

He's another waster who's done nothing to justify his price tag or wages.

If Fergie was in charge he'd have binned this useless prjck years ago.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
Thought you were talking about Sancho there at the beginning and was very, very confused.

No only is he playing video games all night, but he's sprawled out in bed, munching on snacks, watching Netflix docos and he gets this kind of effusive praise?!?
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Ha! to be fair, he sounds like me
 
VP89 said:
The posters micro analysing ten hags comments to advocate for sancho are truly hilarious
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That is an understatament. I wish they spent the same energy analyzing and asking themselves WTF Sancho's entourage or family are even doing here because there is an obvious and massive failure in the way that kid has been raised.
 
gaffs said:
Besides, we don't even know if what Ten Hag is saying is true.
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I doubt very much that ETH would positively misrepresent Sanchos' training efforts to the media.

If he says the lad isn't up to standards in training, he obviously isn't (as far as I'm concerned).
 
Frosty said:


Hmm.
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Wow, he's doubling down. If he really said something like that... I mean, it's just incredible. So he won't put in any effort until there's a new coach. We should basically ban him from anything relating to the club. There are already sunk costs we will never recoup, now it's just about making an example out of him.
 
The idea of Sancho outlasting Erik Ten Hag disgusts me. It will never happen!

Sancho trying to switch from EA FC 2024 to Football Manager? :lol:
 
I'd loan him back to Dortmund in January if they'll have him.
Ideally, he'd be decent there and we'd get a good fee in the summer.
 
The irony of Mourinho saying that Miki should 'do more' is that he was a far better player for United than Sancho, and perhaps what he lacked in confidence he certainly made up for in hardwork. He just wasnt elite for a united winger. Sancho is the ultimate waste man. He's bang average.
 
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