Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Toshey]

Despite a million problems, in every game (maybe except the City one), we've done enough to win. We lost 80% of the games we lost, because of bad finishing, VAR and refereeing screwing us over and a bunch of individual mistakes.

What makes me happy is that the fans on the stadium applaud and cheer for ETH.
So in my books, he has the support that actually matters.
Because he will be successful here, even more than he is now.

That is frankly, and I'm not being disrespectful, a ludicrous assessment of Manchester United's season so far. I cannot believe that some people. genuinely, think this.. or observe this. We're playing the most awful football I can recall at United. Just watch us play. Watch. Forget City, Brighton have essentially embarrased us this season. You forget Galatasary (yes, that European powerhouse of a CL team...) who did a job on us at OT, they hit three and could have scored a few more.

And all you seek are excuses. Unreal.
[/QUOTE]

You have got to be kidding me.
Galatasaray? The same Galatasaray we should have been 4-1 up long before the Onana howler?

I think YOU need to watch us play. Brighton where we got done by VAR yet again? City - where arguably if they have a penalty, so should we? Yes, City outplayed us but we still could have fought off a point.

Always downplaying our success. Always focusing on the negatives. Always trying to make everything worse than it is.
THAT is unreal.

 

[crossy1686]

I can’t take the people that want him sacked seriously.
This club has struggled with a poor football culture for a decade. The idea we can be transformed in a short space of time is fanciful. A lot of people talk about Arsenal but forget things Arteta’s faith or sixth year.
The club has made serious mistakes with ETH. Giving him outsized control on transfers was the first mistake. Why give him more responsibility than he had at Ajax? The simple answer the club has a weak structure. You’re supposed to compensate your coach’s weakness, not exacerbate them.

Bad coaches need loads of structure, just like bad players need loads of coaching and structure. Your best players, just like your best managers hardly need anything except freedom to make the right decisions.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

d

It's not a solid argument when you arbitrarily select one team to make the case.

Real Madrid played 61 games last season, Manchester United played 62. Comparable amount. I looked at the minutes played by each player, sorted high to low. United's 1st and 2nd most used players (De Gea, Fernandes) played more than Real Madrid's 1st and 2nd (Vinicius Jr., Courtois). From #3 to #19, every United player played less minutes. Real Madrid's squad basically ends at #19, United's squad continues until #22 (Sabitzer with 1041 minutes). United has a deeper squad that distributed its minutes more evenly. United should be less fatigued. Yet they are the ones losing every other game; Real Madrid are doing fine.

Manchester City played 58 games in 20/21, again, similar situation. Most of their players played more than the corresponding United players, because their squad was smaller. The next season, did they struggle with the grueling fatigue? No, they won the treble.

It’s not a solid defensive when you arbitrarily select the criteria you use.People are arbitrarily selecting managers at completely different clubs to United and acting like they could install a style of football quickly cause they do it at a smaller club.

Madrid were the league and champions league winning squad going into last season. Fatigue isnt just physical , it’s mental aswell.United went into last season On the back of a horrendous one with massive pressure on the entire squad.

What shape were Madrid going into last and this season? What dramas made their seasons more difficult?

Did they’re leading striker down tools and try to sabotage their manager? Did they replace this superstar with a weghorst level quality?

In terms of league quality , Madrid have a far easier task to nab a few wins to build up momentum.

What about Liverpool? What’s their excuse for last season? They are a closer comparison, even if Klopp hasn’t had to manage all the other sh*te ETH has in just 18 months.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Madrid were the league and champions league winning squad going into last season. Fatigue isnt just physical , it’s mental aswell.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. In order to win the league and CL, you have to play a lot of games. So Real Madrid were carrying lots of games for two consecutive seasons!

What shape were Madrid going into last and this season? What dramas made their seasons more difficult?

Real Madrid have lost Courtois and Militao for the entire season. They also lost Karim Benzema, a Balon D'Or winner who'd been at the club for 16 seasons and was the top goalscorer for the last 5 years, and did not sign a replacement striker. Sounds like difficulty to me!

What about Liverpool? What’s their excuse for last season?

Liverpool failed last season. They have no excuse for it (in my eyes). But they are willing to give Klopp a pass because he has succeeded, quite highly, for 4-5 seasons before this failure.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. In order to win the league and CL, you have to play a lot of games. So Real Madrid were carrying lots of games for two consecutive seasons!



Real Madrid have lost Courtois and Militao for the entire season. They also lost Karim Benzema, a Balon D'Or winner who'd been at the club for 16 seasons and was the top goalscorer for the last 5 years, and did not sign a replacement striker. Sounds like difficulty to me!



Liverpool failed last season. They have no excuse for it (in my eyes). But they are willing to give Klopp a pass because he has succeeded, quite highly, for 4-5 seasons before this failure.

Do you think a season in La Primera is as physically demanding as one in the EPL ?

You chose Real Madrid, not me, you are the one arbitrarily making one comparison and only accepting the variables that suit the narrative you want to believe.

The lost Benzema this season and have one of the strongest looking midfields in the world with Jude Bellingham bailing them out a fair bit. Funny how when that happens its seen as a great thing, but if United have one individual (like Bruno for example) its seen as a weakness. Regardless, Madrid has a winning squad that has credit in the bank and doesnt have a hangover like United. It also has a football infrastructure that has shown the capacity to not go long without success which would be comfort to the team.

Its not just losing a striker or playing alot of games, its everything together.

- Losing players to injury consistently
- Dramas outside of mamagers control (anthony, Greenwood, sale of club, consistentlt sh*t results from those above bringing in wrong managers/players)
- Poor replacements - Ighalo, Weghorst etc
- Retention of players nobody wants simply to padd the squad value on the balance sheet
- Managers joining a squad/club in turmoil , crisis ever 24 months since 2013
- Most players joining form collapses
- Consistently under performing but high expectations

Madrid having a couple of bad injuries is not comparable. Liverpool having one tough season schedule is not comparable. But you do that and judge our manager in isolation on only the variables you want to aknowledge. You call them excuses, they are simply extra variables that do make managing United more difficult and therefore not really fairly comparable.

A culture of excellence can overcome alot of our issues but we dont even have that at the club. So most of us , who can see the bigger picture, understand that while ETH is not completely faultless (and he makes mistakes), he has so many more hurdles to navigate that make simple comparisons with other clubs redundant.

 

[Borys]

I can’t take the people that want him sacked seriously.
This club has struggled with a poor football culture for a decade. The idea we can be transformed in a short space of time is fanciful. A lot of people talk about Arsenal but forget things Arteta’s faith or sixth year.
The club has made serious mistakes with ETH. Giving him outsized control on transfers was the first mistake. Why give him more responsibility than he had at Ajax? The simple answer the club has a weak structure. You’re supposed to compensate your coach’s weakness, not exacerbate them.

Serious question as I don't know how this looked for Arsenal, but how did they look second season? I think what made people lose faith in ETH (certainly happened for me) is we spent loads of money and actually regressed in his second season. It's his squad now and we're playing dogshite.

 

[NLunited]

Fergie once lost the plot with his Aberdeen players straight after a cup final win as they didn't perform to the standards he'd set.

We're one of the biggest and most decorated clubs of all time. No, neither us fans nor anybody involved with the club should be happy with staggering over the line against clubs like Luton Town.

We should all be miserable every time we don’t win with at least three goals difference, right? No, thanks.

Times have changed , we are not the biggest team anymore, and have serious competition from at least four clubs that can match us financially.

We are a long way yet from challenging for the title.

 

[cyberman]

Serious question as I don't know how this looked for Arsenal, but how did they look second season? I think what made people lose faith in ETH (certainly happened for me) is we spent loads of money and actually regressed in his second season. It's his squad now and we're playing dogshite.

This feels like you know they finished 8th but it doesn’t tie into the point you’re trying to make so you feign ignorance?

 

[OrcaFat]

My problem with Ten Hag is that he doesn’t seem to know how to properly coach, manage and organise a team that doesn’t play a passing game. He wants us to play out from the back, having bought a goalkeeper specifically for that, but then admits his players aren’t capable of playing a passing game. He seems to be stuck between two entirely different modes of play.

But then we have Ratcliffe and (presumably) Mitchell coming in. How will they see things? What type of game will they want us to play? If it’s not a passing game there’s no point in retaining Ten Hag.

Radcliffe and Mitchell have no business telling EtH what they “want us to play”. I don’t mind them being part of the conversation about how to develop the club, the profile of the squad, including recruitment and academy strategy but frankly EtH should be leading it all.

 

[Borys]

This feels like you know they finished 8th but it doesn’t tie into the point you’re trying to make so you feign ignorance?

Mishit! I actually don't know which places they finished when, but I know he was getting poor results. The question is, what did they see in him that he was allowed to continue? I am curious.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

You call them excuses, they are simply extra variables that do make managing United more difficult and therefore not really fairly comparable.

Accounting for extra variables is fine. They become excuses when they are blown out of proportion.

case in point, I keep hearing that Ten Hag "is missing his entire starting back four" and that this explains why United can't play anything. Simply looking at the minutes played last season and this season, and the availability and relative use of the players, shows that this is only half-true, i.e blown out of proportion.

 

[Hackman2210]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

I think what is going on here is we are now seeing the wheat separating from the chaff. The team is down and the fighters are fighting, whilst some others have decided its too tough, not for them, weathers shite, more money being offered etc.
When Varane came in he was good, couple of years later, he's older, injuries are taking their toll and he doesnt fancy it anymore. Fair enough really, sell him and move on.
If its the same for Casemiro then thanks for what you did last year, sell him and move on.
Martial - £36m been here 10 years, could have been good but it didnt work out, sadly we cant factor in how a person changes mentally over the 10 years. At 18 he was young and hungry, now hes rich and not overly bothered.
Sancho - finding it much tougher outside the bundasliga, again looked great before we bought him, some players cant handle the pressure of playing for utd, this maybe the case here.
Maguire, Mct, Lindelof, ok they are limited football wise but when on form they can play at this level and they fight for the badge. Fairplay to Maguire he's put up with 2 years of shit from everyone including me and now I'm hoping he's fit as he's our best CB. Same with Evans, no tantrums, no mind games - honest pro.
The club is in a mess, hopefully Sir Jim can bring some stability. With that stability we can build a new team with young hungry players and a few old heads for experience.

Onana, AWB, Maguire, Martinez, Shaw. Malacia, Lindelof, Dalot.
Fernandes. Mct, Greenwood, Garnacho, Mainoo, Mount.
Hojlund, Antony, Rashford.

I would hope those players, get retained for next season - Erikson maybe his legs have gone.
So thats 17 players - we need 8 more for a squad.

How much can we get for;
Casemiro, Sancho, Martial, Varane, Erikson?

 

[Alex99]

Serious question as I don't know how this looked for Arsenal, but how did they look second season? I think what made people lose faith in ETH (certainly happened for me) is we spent loads of money and actually regressed in his second season. It's his squad now and we're playing dogshite.

Can't speak for the football but Arsenal had finished 6th, 5th then 6th in the three seasons prior to his appointment (under Wenger then Emery).

They were 10th when he took over in 2019, and they won just one of his first eight league games. He only got them up to 8th, but did win the FA Cup.

The next season (20/21), they again finished 8th. They went on a run of seven games without a win and at one point were as low as 15th.

The season after (21/22), they finished 5th. They had a slow start but were in the top four as the run-in approached. They went a run of one win in five (losing the other four) and dropped out, won their next four to climb back in, the lost two of their final three to drop out again.

As an aside, for all of the talk of United's records against City and Liverpool, this is Arteta's with the aggregate scorelines (PL only):

City 19-4 Arsenal - LLLLLLLW
Liverpool 17-8 Arsenal - WLLLLWD

 

[Jeffthered]

That is frankly, and I'm not being disrespectful, a ludicrous assessment of Manchester United's season so far. I cannot believe that some people. genuinely, think this.. or observe this. We're playing the most awful football I can recall at United. Just watch us play. Watch. Forget City, Brighton have essentially embarrased us this season. You forget Galatasary (yes, that European powerhouse of a CL team...) who did a job on us at OT, they hit three and could have scored a few more.

And all you seek are excuses. Unreal.

You have got to be kidding me.
Galatasaray? The same Galatasaray we should have been 4-1 up long before the Onana howler?

I think YOU need to watch us play. Brighton where we got done by VAR yet again? City - where arguably if they have a penalty, so should we? Yes, City outplayed us but we still could have fought off a point.

Always downplaying our success. Always focusing on the negatives. Always trying to make everything worse than it is.
THAT is unreal.
[/QUOTE]

I'm going to ignore your accusations of me downplaying success etc, because it's nonsense.

What I would ask is this (and it may help make my point..).. do you seriously think we lost against Brighton a few weeks ago because of VAR? Is that what you're suggesting?

 

[DJ_21]

Playing devil's advocate here - but Bruno is shit and Rashford is shit, our midfield is shit, our defence is total shit so even if we click, how much better are we really going to do?

Finishing 3rd last season… this season we’ve apparently improved the squad with signings but gotten worse.

 

[GMoore23]

We should all be miserable every time we don’t win with at least three goals difference, right? No, thanks.

Times have changed , we are not the biggest team anymore, and have serious competition from at least four clubs that can match us financially.

We are a long way yet from challenging for the title.

Yes, and it's fans like you who accept this making the Glazers comfortable in charge.
We are still the biggest team, just with terrible owners and a subpar manager.

 

[hobbers]

During games when the team is looking good, the thread is silent

When was this

 

[cpresc]

At the moment I don't think I'd put Martinez ahead of Smalling. It's too short a period to claim he's clearly ahead (or behind), and it'll depend on how he plays when he comes back.

Martinez was really only brilliant for about a third of the season. He basically started a bit shaky (although not as bad as some made out), then was absolutely fantastic up until the World Cup. In the reckoning for the best defender in the league for about three months. But after the World Cup he never reached that level again. Good? Sure. But he certainly wasn't great and he had his fair share of poor games before then getting injured. Then obviously he was poor this season, but hopefully that was just a result of him coming back too early and not a sign of things to come.

Obviously the hope is that he recovers fully this time, comes back and then is consistently at that level that he showed for his great third of last season. But a lot of people are making out that he was at that level for most of last season and he really wasn't.

he was the best defender in the league, went and won the World Cup, came back and won us a trophy and then got injured

chris smalling… ok sure

 

[Garethw]

Radcliffe and Mitchell have no business telling EtH what they “want us to play”. I don’t mind them being part of the conversation about how to develop the club, the profile of the squad, including recruitment and academy strategy but frankly EtH should be leading it all.

That’s not how a modern football structure works. The DOF appoints a manager that is the right fit for the clubs sporting vision. The only thing ETH should be leading is the training and match day tactics. He of course will have a say on the clubs recruitment but he should not be having final say.

 

[cpresc]

The problems we have are in this order:

The players we don’t sell
The players we buy

 

[Toshey]

You have got to be kidding me.
Galatasaray? The same Galatasaray we should have been 4-1 up long before the Onana howler?

I think YOU need to watch us play. Brighton where we got done by VAR yet again? City - where arguably if they have a penalty, so should we? Yes, City outplayed us but we still could have fought off a point.

Always downplaying our success. Always focusing on the negatives. Always trying to make everything worse than it is.
THAT is unreal.

I'm going to ignore your accusations of me downplaying success etc, because it's nonsense.

What I would ask is this (and it may help make my point..).. do you seriously think we lost against Brighton a few weeks ago because of VAR? Is that what you're suggesting?
[/QUOTE]

That's EXACTLY what I am suggesting. Clear goal denied because of absurd VAR call.
VAR refusing to interfere in at least 2 situations that should have led to 2nd yellow card for Brighton player.

There is a big difference between going into halftime 1-0 down, and 1-1. We were chasing the game, they caught us on the counter, 2:0.

Brighton did NOT outplay us, we were even. They had a bit more posession, we managed to get a bit more shots. Also we had horrible misses in this game once again.
If you want for the sake of argument, let's rewatch the game and pin point the key events?

 

[hobbers]

Radcliffe and Mitchell have no business telling EtH what they “want us to play”. I don’t mind them being part of the conversation about how to develop the club, the profile of the squad, including recruitment and academy strategy but frankly EtH should be leading it all.

Exactly the opposite of how any successful club is run in this day and age

 

[Daydreamer]

Serious question as I don't know how this looked for Arsenal, but how did they look second season? I think what made people lose faith in ETH (certainly happened for me) is we spent loads of money and actually regressed in his second season. It's his squad now and we're playing dogshite.

First season
Arsenal finished 8th, but we were in 11th when he took over. A league starting from his first games would have seen us finish 5th. And he won the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea to do so.

Second season
Finished 8th and many fans (though not myself) wanted him sacked. I think the Board saw two things. (1) We have always looked like a well-coached side with a clear plan that the players were buying into. (2) He and Edu were tasked with completely overhauling our squad and were halfway through doing so.

Third season
Finished 5th and our late season collapse meant we missed out on the CL. The atmosphere at the Emirates was completely different, though. We were playing a lot of Academy players alongside fan favourite new signings like Ramsdale. We hadn’t reached the CL, but we had drastically reduced the wage bill and the average age of the squad. Most importantly for me as a fan, I actually like the players wearing the shirt and how we approached the game. Football is supposed to be entertainment after all, so it was great to actually enjoy watching games again.

Fourth season
Finished 2nd and completely changed how we’re perceived both inside and outside the club. My major criticism is the lack of rotation and substitutions that lead us to collapse in the run-in for the 2nd season running.

Fifth season
Currently 2nd in the league and top of our CL group. We’re not as fluid as last season, but are far more in control of both games themselves and our emotions when playing. The squad is stronger, too.

Arteta wasn’t retained because of blind faith. The Board backed him because above all he is an excellent Coach. He improves players and gets the team to play in a cohesive style that makes us more than the sum of our parts.

ETH did the same at Ajax. But as far as I can see, he’s has done neither at United. Players either stagnate or regress and results are frequently dependent upon moments of individual brilliance.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

Its now confirmed by Rene Meulensteen, former United assistant coach in The Guardian, that The Glazers pulled the plug on a Harry Kane move.


“We never felt any kind of influence on us on a daily basis,” Meulensteen says of his time working under the Glazers at United. “I doubt there’s any influence now because the Glazers are 4,000 miles away.

“The only thing you can question is the backing of the managers – and, yes, they’ve backed them with finances. But you saw Ole Gunnar Solskjær come out and say ‘I wanted X player, X player’ and none came. For example, signing Harry Kane this summer was guaranteeing 25 to 30 goals, but they didn’t do it because they thought he was too old."

As if getting Weghorst wasnt indication enough, Ten Hag is coaching with his hands tied behind his back and you can put that 400 million spending on his name, but those are buys that werent his first choice or, more apparent, not his choice at all. (As an aside, this also gives OGS a bit of shine back. He, too, was shafted by The Glazers.)

The sooner The Glazers are out, the better.

 

[Daydreamer]

First season
Arsenal finished 8th, but we were in 11th when he took over. A league starting from his first games would have seen us finish 5th. And he won the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea to do so.

Second season
Finished 8th and many fans (though not myself) wanted him sacked. I think the Board saw two things. (1) We have always looked like a well-coached side with a clear plan that the players were buying into. (2) He and Edu were tasked with completely overhauling our squad and were halfway through doing so.

Third season
Finished 5th and our late season collapse meant we missed out on the CL. The atmosphere at the Emirates was completely different, though. We were playing a lot of Academy players alongside fan favourite new signings like Ramsdale. We hadn’t reached the CL, but we had drastically reduced the wage bill and the average age of the squad. Most importantly for me as a fan, I actually like the players wearing the shirt and how we approached the game. Football is supposed to be entertainment after all, so it was great to actually enjoy watching games again.

Fourth season
Finished 2nd and completely changed how we’re perceived both inside and outside the club. My major criticism is the lack of rotation and substitutions that lead us to collapse in the run-in for the 2nd season running.

Fifth season
Currently 2nd in the league and top of our CL group. We’re not as fluid as last season, but are far more in control of both games themselves and our emotions when playing. The squad is stronger, too.

Arteta wasn’t retained because of blind faith. The Board backed him because above all he is an excellent Coach. He improves players and gets the team to play in a cohesive style that makes us more than the sum of our parts.

ETH did the same at Ajax. But as far as I can see, he’s has done neither at United. Players either stagnate or regress and results are frequently dependent upon moments of individual brilliance.

@Borys, I’ve just realised you only asked about the 2nd season. TLDR, we finished 8th, but we had a clear playing style and were halfway through overhauling the squad. Arteta could have been sacked if you looked at results alone, but the Board truly believed in what he was building.

 

[tenhagsimp]

I’ve just realised you only asked about the 2nd season. TLDR, we finished 8th, but we had a clear playing style and were halfway through overhauling the squad. Arteta could have been sacked if you looked at results alone, but the Board truly believed in what he was building.

Agree. Iirc you lot played City off the park but lost the game because of bad "luck". Please correct me if im wrong. I rmb being really impressed with you guys even though you were losing the game.

 

[Borys]

First season
Arsenal finished 8th, but we were in 11th when he took over. A league starting from his first games would have seen us finish 5th. And he won the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea to do so.

Second season
Finished 8th and many fans (though not myself) wanted him sacked. I think the Board saw two things. (1) We have always looked like a well-coached side with a clear plan that the players were buying into. (2) He and Edu were tasked with completely overhauling our squad and were halfway through doing so.

Third season
Finished 5th and our late season collapse meant we missed out on the CL. The atmosphere at the Emirates was completely different, though. We were playing a lot of Academy players alongside fan favourite new signings like Ramsdale. We hadn’t reached the CL, but we had drastically reduced the wage bill and the average age of the squad. Most importantly for me as a fan, I actually like the players wearing the shirt and how we approached the game. Football is supposed to be entertainment after all, so it was great to actually enjoy watching games again.

Fourth season
Finished 2nd and completely changed how we’re perceived both inside and outside the club. My major criticism is the lack of rotation and substitutions that lead us to collapse in the run-in for the 2nd season running.

Fifth season
Currently 2nd in the league and top of our CL group. We’re not as fluid as last season, but are far more in control of both games themselves and our emotions when playing. The squad is stronger, too.

Arteta wasn’t retained because of blind faith. The Board backed him because above all he is an excellent Coach. He improves players and gets the team to play in a cohesive style that makes us more than the sum of our parts.

ETH did the same at Ajax. But as far as I can see, he’s has done neither at United. Players either stagnate or regress and results are frequently dependent upon moments of individual brilliance.

Thanks for this. Results is one thing, but good football and ideas that both fans AND players are "buying" is also important - a belief the team is heading the right direction. Looking at that description, I can see why Arteta was given more time than you would imagine just looking at final league position. It is also not looking like current United at all.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

In Arteta's first full season they had horrendous results in the first half and much improved results in the 2nd half. An 8th place finish is obviously quite poor but they finished on a high.

It helps psychologically to end on a high.

 

[Rednotdead]

Radcliffe and Mitchell have no business telling EtH what they “want us to play”. I don’t mind them being part of the conversation about how to develop the club, the profile of the squad, including recruitment and academy strategy but frankly EtH should be leading it all.

That’s not how it works when you have a DOF. He sets the playing style and recruits a manager and players who can deliver that. You’ve seen for yourself what a mess we’ve got into just letting each manager set his own playing style and recruit the players he wants. There’s no continuity at all.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Correct me if I’m wrong but Arteta during Arsenal’s process has not suffered the same level of injuries and drama surrounding the club as he was shaping the team.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Radcliffe and Mitchell have no business telling EtH what they “want us to play”. I don’t mind them being part of the conversation about how to develop the club, the profile of the squad, including recruitment and academy strategy but frankly EtH should be leading it all.

Whoever the DoF is should be leading it all. For all the goodwill EtH has, Antony & Mount mean his influence on signings should be marginalised.

I can’t remember who it was on OTC but they rightly said he’s not a DoF so shouldn’t be judged as such so asking him to buy players is ridiculous. EtH should coach, have some input on players but under no circumstances should he have final say on any transfers.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Correct me if I’m wrong but Arteta during Arsenal’s process has not suffered the same level of injuries and drama surrounding the club as he was shaping the team.

He’s also only won an FA Cup so far so the plaudits are little exaggerated at this point.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Whoever the DoF is should be leading it all. For all the goodwill EtH has, Antony & Mount mean his influence on signings should be marginalised.

I can’t remember who it was on OTC but they rightly said he’s not a DoF so shouldn’t be judged as such so asking him to buy players is ridiculous. EtH should coach, have some input on players but under no circumstances should he have final say on any transfers.

There's a decent argument to be made that this has ultimately been ETH's downfall, as simply taking Antony and Mount out (two obviously poor signings that ETH heavily pushed for) and replacing them with Diaby and potentially Thuram + a CB would already improve our outlook as a squad. It was alarming even last summer when it felt like all of our players we were being linked to were all Ajax or connected to ETH personally as it really showed who was driving most of the recruitment. No manager can be both a DoF and manage a huge club in the PL, it's impossible in today's game.

Now, regardless of our poor recruitment I do think ETH deserves shouldering blame for our mostly listless play/lack of clear style this year as we've largely been fit in the midfield and forward line yet have been pretty atrocious going forward.

 

[Daydreamer]

Correct me if I’m wrong but Arteta during Arsenal’s process has not suffered the same level of injuries and drama surrounding the club as he was shaping the team.

We've had a pretty bad injury list at times. Even yesterday we were without Timber, White, Partey, Odegaard and Jesus - half of our first choice outfielders were missing. We also had Smith-Rowe and Nketiah out, so we were forced to play Trossard up front, who is 3rd choice at best.

Partey, Zinchenko, Jesus, Saliba, Tomiyasu, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe and Timber have all had major injuries that have kept them out for several months in the last couple of years.

All teams have injuries. I think United's seem worse because (1) It's your team so your awareness is a lot higher and (2) It doesn't seem to having as adverse an effect on other teams.

We've also had our fair share of drama. Ozil was criticised for his comments on China and refusing to take a Covid pay cut (which I agreed with about, btw) and forced out. Aubameyang was suspended, stripped of the captaincy and sold. There are other issues that can't be discussed.

You'll find injuries and drama at all clubs, basically.

 

[Adisa]

I also don’t buy the “we look worse than last season”. Progress is not always linear. People also are failing to take into consideration all the shit Trn Hag has had to deal with. I can’t guarantee that ETH will take us where we want to be but I can’t accept there are grounds for sacking him.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Our style of play is and has been shit since last season (later stage). I’m not sure what the excuse for this is

 

[tjb]

That’s not how it works when you have a DOF. He sets the playing style and recruits a manager and players who can deliver that. You’ve seen for yourself what a mess we’ve got into just letting each manager set his own playing style and recruit the players he wants. There’s no continuity at all.

Ideally that's what we want, but this notion that this is what happens at every club and what has happened is just not true. Arsenal had Unai Emery prior to Arteta, Spurs went from Poch to Mourinho to Conte to Ange. No Italian club does this, neither did Madrid or Bayern. The only club I know that I can say definitively does this is Barcelona. The only reason they do this is their style of play is cultural. It has nothing to do with DOF's. It's a way of making us as a club seem more incompetent, when its just a lazy statement. Liverpool didn't hire Klopp because there were similarities with Rodgers, they hired him because he did fantastic work at Dortmund and they wanted to play the type of football he had instituted there. Mancini and Pellegrini aren't the same managers. I also highly doubt that City plotted to sack Pellegrini when they got him in 2014. Even if they did, given Pep had just signed with Bayern, it wouldn't have been a long term plan that they had instituted. That story gets spun around like it's normal, it's not. No club does that.

In the past ten years, we've seen the failure of managerial recruitment and in a larger sense, the fact that despite complaints for more control, managers don't actually have the sense of the big picture of clubs like they'd like to act like they do. So it's imperative that the DOF handles the recruitment plan and strategy. However, this idea of playing style is one that was again borne from citing two examples in City and Barca, but not looking at the rest of football. It's almost impossible to do and assumes that style of play is fixed and that players are restricted to types. It's very rigid. We are a club whose success came from having different types of players in our squads, with different personalities and different traits, who a manager could pull together and bring out good performances. It made us adaptable and tactically flexible, and is part of what what Fergie such a good in game manager. Every team wants good footballers with technical ability, good physical attributes and a strong mentality, which would be good enough to adapt to any side. The problem we've had isn't us having ill-suited players. It has been the fact that we've recruited some poor players and fans overzealously supporting managers who are failing, hence blaming players for not adapting or suiting their systems. Systems which didn't ever succeed. Again, Pep is often cited as an example of why this is important. However, the truth is, at every club he's been at, Pep has always been able to institute his style of play. It may vary based on the league type, but it was always visible. Whether with Yaya Toure at the 6, Robben and Ribery on the flank or Badstuber in defence. The ability to dominate each game to the degree he currently does may not have been there, but they could always create chances and keep possession even with those players. I'd argue that not all of those players that simply ended up working well for him were ideally suitable for his style, but he trained them to be, and today we remember it as them always being well-suited, when in actuality it was the work of training and adaptation like is visible at Arsenal with Declan Rice.

My point is that the structures being in place would really help our club move forward, as allowing managers to do what they want due to our history with Fergie has stifled the club. However, it's important to understand that the managers have still been at fault for what happens on the training ground and on the pitch. A stronger structure would simply provide a bloc in the football operations chain who the manager would need to answer to. As a club, it means quicker decisions on managers and managers needing an extra step to request for transfers. Fans should still expect entitled managers to complain when things don't go their way, but they would no longer come in with promises of time and the idea that they are here to save the club. In my opinion, that's where our structure with Murtough has somewhat failed. It was too passive. It was trying to work hand in hand with the manager, whilst also not truly overseeing what the manager was doing.

 

[Loon]

Its now confirmed by Rene Meulensteen, former United assistant coach in The Guardian, that The Glazers pulled the plug on a Harry Kane move.


“We never felt any kind of influence on us on a daily basis,” Meulensteen says of his time working under the Glazers at United. “I doubt there’s any influence now because the Glazers are 4,000 miles away.

“The only thing you can question is the backing of the managers – and, yes, they’ve backed them with finances. But you saw Ole Gunnar Solskjær come out and say ‘I wanted X player, X player’ and none came. For example, signing Harry Kane this summer was guaranteeing 25 to 30 goals, but they didn’t do it because they thought he was too old.

As if getting Weghorst wasnt indication enough, Ten Hag is coaching with his hands tied behind his back and you can put that 400 million spending on his name, but those are buys that werent his first choice or, more apparent, not his choice at all. (As an aside, this also gives OGS a bit of shine back. He, too, was shafted by The Glazers.)

The sooner The Glazers are out, the better.

I fully believe this. Ten Hag intimated Kane ("experienced striker") was supposed to come in alongside Hojlund and the club should have spent that crazy money, but a rebuttal could just as easily be, "You did have £80m to spend, and even if it was part of the funds intended to try for Kane, that perhaps should have been spent better elsewhere rather than on Antony "

 

[NLunited]

Not seen mentioned, but Ten Hag is trying to implement high pressing this season and we have forced the most turnovers in the league.

It is something that should be mentioned when discussing what Ten Hag is trying to achieve, no?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

A fixed playing style determined by the DoF, with recruitment based around it, is quite useful for a smaller club, because turnover will be high. They can't keep players and managers that long, so using a defined style as an anchor is helpful. You look at Brighton and the players they've sold, they last 1-4 years.

If you're a top club, the turnover is far slower. The players and the managers should be the anchor.