This has been one of the most sensible posts I've seen on this subject in a while!
I voted ETH but the level of disrespect shown to MP is laughable.
Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed
- Thread starter Panther
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I voted ETH but the level of disrespect shown to MP is laughable.
We can prefer whoever we want, but the trying to make out that the other guy is Mick McCarthy is more what I have an issue with. And then feeling the need to assign a particular agenda to anyone else who seems to think Pochettino would be the best option. Either the players want him because they want comfort (where that comes from is fecking anyone’s guess), or former players are saying they want him apparently because Fergie told them to or something. How about Poch is a well respected manager in his own right?
It’s probably Shaw coercing Rooney after he read the bit about ETH training drills.
I think this period has seen me - and many others - become truly exasperated with our players to the point I think a number of them have become irredeemable, like end of my tether, please just go, state. I don't believe they've downed tools, particularly, but a number of them are a husk of themselves and what a Manchester United player is and represents. If ten Hag could turn them around, I'd consider miraculous, as I'm sure most of our fans not fuelled on blind faith would, also. We're really in a sunken state, and I don't think that's just the dejected supporter in me speaking.
Your perspective lays more faith in the players and even ten Hag than I think most of the fanbase have - I feel it cruel and unfair to burden and lumber him with this collective over culling as many of them as we can (deemed prerequisite), for example. Per my vision, we start from scratch with a mixed and renewed energy that comes via disbanding cliques and having everyone pulling in the right direction unquestionably and I have my doubts this collective can or will do that.
Appreciate your other post regarding Kovac and the damage he caused. Both good posts, so thanks for that.
I think your comparison is strongly based on what happened in Munich, but you can't really compare both situations, especially when it comes to the situation around Kovac/Ancelotti. Since SAF left, United didn’t have a system, cohesion, ”team” or really anything to fall back up on.
Since SAF left almost every single player that was bought ended up looking worse. Half the squad is physically incapable to play for 90 minutes with decent intensity and there are even more players who aren’t concentrated for 90 minutes or are not bothered at all. United is an unusual example, where the new manager is going to have to change not just some players or tactics, but the complete culture at the club. While the manager certainly is the key-figure, he desperately needs the support of the management. It remains to be seen if the guy(s), that followed Woody are more competent than him. The worrying aspect isn’t that there is never going to be a guarantee for a manager to succeed, but that even a very good manager might be set up to fail in an environment with zero accountability. Its baffling to see a club with the financial resources and history of United to fail for almost a decade without any real repercussions for the leadership. If the same would happen in Madrid, Barcelona or Munich, shit would hit the fan way earlier. The oil clubs operate slightly differently, because there is less fan pressure, but their patrons certainly demand some return for their money. There is something fatalistic in the way United operates as if the repeated failure has been and is unavoidable and nobody’s fault.
The positive for United is, that things can change fast. There are not “prolonged” rebuilds for top team (=team with a lot of money). If you make a few crucial good decisions, performance will improve.
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Exactly. Our players are bad at football therefore we must always do the opposite to what they want in order to succeed at football.
Looks like he would if Ten Hag was a Dutch pie type
Yeah, there's a number of reasons I've drawn the conclusion if cull where possible over persevere. It feels like it's time, organically.
ETH plays beautiful football, it's fast and offensive. No wonder he is a fan favorite.
The amount of people on here disrespecting Pochettino is unreal. Rio, Neville and the others who would prefer Poch is not because they are mates with him. They have been down to training grounds, seen how he operates and trains his players.
If anyone actually remembers what he done to the Southampton team and the early Spurs years, are absolutely clowns to write him off.
Poch gets knocked out of the CL to Madrid and gets a bad name, whilst Ten Hag loses to Benfica and yet not a word.
Mate, Frank De Boer was a top manager at Ajax and lasted less than half a season at Palace, so do not judge a manager based on what they do in the Dutch league.
He is the fashionable choice because some people think City want him to be Pep's successor, yet will criticise United for signing Maguire, Fred, Alexis who were all wanted by City.
Again, little to do with what I said.
I agree with all of this. And I say that as someone who would like to see Ten Hag come in, although Enrique would probably slightly be my first choice overall. I do get the appeal of Ten Hag, it is just that I also get why someone would want Pochettino to become the manager without needing to create a conspiracy theory for it.
I think the main concern with Pochettino is he won nothing at Tottenham with one of the best squads in the league, and is completely faling at PSG with a squad with Mbappe, Messi and Neymar.
He's a good manager and a good option but it seems like he's a level or two behind the top premier league managers.
That is just spin, and anyone can word anything how they like due to their own agenda. For instance, Pochettino doesn’t sound like a ‘good manager and a good option’ at all with how you described him. Another person could, just as accurately, describe him in a way that makes him sound very good. Someone like Rooney or Neville, for example, because there are plenty of positives to reference if you choose to.
Similarly, anyone could easily make a summary of Ten Hag as to why he is not best suited, with points that would all be valid. In all likelihood, Ten Hag wouldn’t have won the PL with Spurs, and in all likelihood, Pochettino would win the Eredivise with Ajax, scoring a lot of goals and conceding few in the process. Ten Hag has his appeal, and is a romantic choice, but it isn’t an appointment so obvious that going a different way defies all logic and reason.
And Pochettino is doing a very interesting rendition of ‘completely failing at PSG’ by the way, winning the league by an absolute landslide.
Yes and no. I think they know endlessly more than me about 90% of what it takes to be a professional football player. I think they would be better coaches than me for 99 % of football teams (I’ve been a coach for several under age teams, and would be hestitant to throw them in there in some instances at least). I think if they were to spend an hour analyzing a football game to point out what’s going on tactically, they would be a hundred times better than me (if they were told explicitly to ignore sensationalism and hobby horses, at least).
I think, many times, what they don’t know, is their own limitations. For instance Gary Neville, when he was asked to coach Valencia, stupid me could see that it was very likely he was underprepared for what it would take to succeed in that role at that club. And he later confessed, he grossly underestimated not just the degree of the challenge, but the scope of it too. He underestimated things that was easy for me to see he would have to prepare for.
Similarily, because I’ve spent unhealthy amounts of reading interviews with anyone who could say anything about Solskjær as a coach, about Ten Hag, about Rangnik, it’s easy for me to spot that Scholes, Neville and Ferdinand often talks without reading more than superficial pieces on the same subjects, or worse, only talking to equally superficially informed people. That makes them more sane than I am, unfortunately I am aware of my madness, but they don’t seem aware of their limitations. They’ll be in shock and surprise at the lack of high press two weeks after Rangnik’s entry, despite Rangnik himself in advance having carefully explained that he would never try to instil high press too quickly mid season, because he deems it way too risky and quite frankly, a very bad idea to anyone with a decent understanding of what it takes to implement high press. Now, I knew this because I read interviews, and then it dawns of you that when Neville doubles down on that it must be the players who ate thick, lazy or subversive, because everybody knows that Rangnik is all about gegenpress, he is talking out of his arse. To put it short: He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know, and that makes him frequently say quite stupid things with aplomb and certainty, even if he generally knows alot more about football than me.
Probably be a relatively smart idea to have someone that experienced alongside Erik who knows both him and the club well.
I like the idea, but would Steve agree to it?
I mean he used to be a Premier league manager, England manager, and Ten Hag was his assistant at FC Twente. He'd seriously have to swallow his pride and go back to where it essentially began for him decades ago, with his former assistant now his boss.
Whereas, moving from PSG, with seemingly some of the best talent, to us, with a rebuild needed, having not come close to completing what is needed at PSG looks like 1) jumping ship 2) failure 3) a downgrade 4) Peter principle, he met his level of incompetency at Spurs.
The ETH assessment, at Spurs, is speculation.
As for ETH being romantic, is it less appropriate than wishful thinking that Poch can final achieve?
But they never seen ETH coach and haven't spent time with him at grounds, how is that a valid argument? It does feel they're a bit matey with Poch.
Neville outright said he spent "some time" with Poch 5-6 years ago.. How good was Mourinho 5-6 years prior to us appointing him?
Ten Hag is Pep's disciple and plays a fantastic brand of football while rebuilding his team more than once, not just some bloke doing ok at Ajax. It's no secret City, Dortmund and probably other well run clubs would look at him. Would they want Poch? As a matter of fact which club will go for Poch this summer?
I imagine the dynamic would not be that of a typical boss/employee relationship. They'd work together to tackle issues whilst taking advice from one another.
Still find it odd that a manager who's worked in the top flight would be happy to see out the (presumably) final years of their career being an assistant. Granted his career has taken a bit of a nosedive in recent years, but this is still someone who's won a league title, managed England and managed in the Premier league for several years.
Perhaps in your language leaving PSG after winning the league looks like failure.‘Jumping ship’ is no different from what Ten Hag would be doing. The other two points are similarly speculative.
And there is no equation in which Poch amounts to wishful thinking where Ten Hag amounts to something other than that.
Think the difference is PSG want to be rid of Poch, and if we don't stupidly pay off his compensation, PSG will almost certainly sack him at the end of the season irrespective of winning the league IMO. Ajax on the other hand would almost certainly want ten Hag to stay on for years.
I wasn't sold on any of our other appointments (Apart from Jose).
I've got to say Ten Hag would be the first choice that has really excited me. I hope we get this done and give him some backing. It's the only appointment that makes next season exciting IMO.
I've got to say Ten Hag would be the first choice that has really excited me. I hope we get this done and give him some backing. It's the only appointment that makes next season exciting IMO.
He was recently a technical director at Derby.
Not really a step down necessarily. Plenty of ex managers settle into some director like role, Rangnick being a example.
Going from manager to assistant to me is a step down, its akin to a first team player dropping into the U23s.
It’s a difference, but not a particularly relevant one to me. Even if PSG want rid of Poch, the fact will still remain that they want rid of a title winning manager. How PSG choose to interpret that is up to them. It means no more or less to the success that Pochettino enjoys there.
I hate to be the one to say it first, but ‘this is Manchester United’. Opting to be an assistant here doesn’t mean that Steve McClaren is generally in the market for an assistant manager job.
This
This would be a excellent opportunity for McLaren to get back into the game at the top level. I don't see why he won't jump at the chance to work alongside his former assistant at Old Trafford.
In my language? You seem to believe PSG are content with the league, in a largely one club competition. Disagree; the funding level for ETH/Ajax is very different than Poch/PSG.
The latter two aren't speculative, i accept your lack of address as failure to be able to answer effectively.
Equation and wishful thinking? Is a romantic notion different from wishful thinking, im curious because you changed from romantic to wishful.
With how many fans are so sure about Ten Hag; I am surprised watching the quality of football ajax is playing.
It's only highlights for sure - but hardly anything exactly that makes me feel promised about next season.
Hopefully it's only just some faulty paranoia.
It's only highlights for sure - but hardly anything exactly that makes me feel promised about next season.
Hopefully it's only just some faulty paranoia.
Exactly. Why wouldn’t you want to get involved? He’s 60 years old - what an opportunity to contribute at the highest level and work with top players again. His last job was 3 years ago with QPR 17th in the championship ffs.
Do you think they play better football than us out of interest?
To be fair. Neither do 90% of us. Not really know him. Just on the assumption of what he’s done. It’ll translate here.