Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed

[horsechoker]

Great thread, but I think these two tweets sum it up the best:
Ten Hag is obviously a master tactician, but can he come into our circus and still perform?

Get rid of the clowns first.

 

[DWelbz19]

His tactics seem extremely similar to those of Pep and Arteta.

I think he'd be a great hire for United so long as the club is willing to back him, not just in the market but also against any players that might give him trouble. These systems require all players to be of a high technical level and, just as if not more importantly, to be willing to buy into a very structured approach and subordinate their own thoughts about the game to the system. There is a reason Pep had to bin off 2/3 of the squad he inherited at City within the first couple years and Arteta even more of his squad.

At United there are going to be a bunch of very high profile big players who just won't fit this system. Ronaldo (if he stays around) no way. Bruno while world class is potentially a very awkward fit, as he wants too much freedom to move around the pitch and by nature he is such a risk taker in attack. Rashford doesn't seem like a great fit either, doesn't work hard enough off the ball and is again too direct and not enough of a combination player with the ball. Maguire is too slow on the turn to play an aggressive high line consistently. Wan Bissaka no way. Shaw has all the tools in theory but whether he is disciplined enough to really do exactly what he is asked positionally and situationally I don't know.

I think with Rangnick at the club also, there’s an ‘extra man’ so to speak to support the potential decisions of moving on some of the ‘bigger’ names. Rangnick has already shown that players like Shaw and Wan Bissaka can be dropped for lengthy periods. Maguire has missed a few games. Whether that will translate into the club letting us permanently part with some of these players… who knows.

I completely agree, though. You can’t get a possession obsessed manager and then expect him to succeed without letting him set the side how he needs to. He can coach the players we have to a higher standard, sure, but like you say with Pep he had to rip most of the furniture out.

One player you missed who I think will be interesting; David De Gea…

 

[Flexdegea]

Great thread, but I think these two tweets sum it up the best:
Ten Hag is obviously a master tactician, but can he come into our circus and still perform?

I've not problem with this bit.


He turned average players into crackers Tallac.........he will do fine. A lot has changed at the club this season behind the scenes

 

[RedC]

Great thread, but I think these two tweets sum it up the best:
Ten Hag is obviously a master tactician, but can he come into our circus and still perform?

The main point of this interim stuff with Rangnick is to give him a head start in that regard. I'm not sure some of our brain dead players have copped that yet, but ten Hag will be getting a nice package of info from Rangnick on who is not going to be worth keeping etc.

 

[Redfrog]

It was a big achievement for both indeed. Why do you think the posters who are definitely pro Ten Hag give him more credit for failing to make the final than they do Pochettino for actually beating him to it?




Fergie was already a legend during all that, you're comparing apples to oranges. What has Ten Hag won besides the Dutch league and domestic cups? He needed that win against a fellow manager on the up and trying to establish himself among the greatest.

Ajax were massive favorites after their win in London and Ten Hag blew it against Pochettino who equally didn't have prior experience at that stage of the CL. Maybe the pressure at the big stage got to him? Pochetinno excelled in those crucial 45 minutes and showed real fight.

Ten Hag had a squad composed of players who had EL final experience two years prior with the addition of a few PL veterans so what was the excuse for that capitulation?

Everything you mentioned before the part in bold is now a moot point because Pochettino is on course to win Ligue 1 handedly and he's leading RM after outplaying them in the first leg of their CL last 16 tie.

Why hasn't Ten Hag built on his 2018/19 champions league semifinal appearance? Isn't he going from strength to strength as suggested? Since that semifinal he's been dumped out the group stage twice and made the last 32 and quarterfinals of the EL. He can't even get further in that. I don't care about his domestic record, it hasn't translated to an improvement in the CL, so maybe that semifinal was a fluke.

Lack of bench options? Was there a serious injury crisis or do Ajax lack squad depth? They blew that tie from a VERY strong position. 45 minutes to win it, that was all. They shut up shop in London and almost even took a 0-2 lead to Amsterdam. They couldn't do the same at home!

I don’t know who is better between Pochettino or Ten Hag but saying why Ten Hag didn’t build from his semi-final is bullshit. Ajax was depleted from their best players by big clubs.

 

[Slysi17]

Manchester United board will make a competent decision? No way. Will believe it when I see it.

They will hire Maurico Pochettino and not Erik Ten Hag. Another mistake. The cycle will be getting top four for 2 seasons and then it falling apart in season 3.

 

[kafta]

It has to be Ten Hag. I hope we dont manage to screw this up.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

They will hire Maurico Pochettino and not Erik Ten Hag. Another mistake. The cycle will be getting top four for 2 seasons and then it falling apart in season 3.

Yeah if they were clever they would have a strategy of aiming for the title and even if we fail then we surely make top 4.

The issue with making top 4 the target every year is what we are seeing now, when we fall short then we end up in the 5th to 8th positions. Complete neglect of any standards or vision.

 

[Kaos]

I don't get the excitement. All these reports are saying is we've made contact and asked about this availability, not offered him the job. I'm assuming we're doing/have done the same for the other candidates too. Am I missing something?

 

[Mickson]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1499091489498046472.html

Tweet


Good read on ETH

I remember when people here said that 'patterns of play' didn't exist and was invented by hipsters on Twitter. They were, of course, Ole lovers. We must get ETH! Damn, I've already started dreaming.

 

[Lash]

Great thread, but I think these two tweets sum it up the best:
Ten Hag is obviously a master tactician, but can he come into our circus and still perform?

Isn't that the point of the new set up? He is a head coach appointment and we seem to trust Murtogh and Ralf's opinions on players - plus Fletcher's input from who in the academy is ready. He will obviously have a profile he's looking for, so as long as they work together, the tactician is what we're missing.

 

[FrankDrebin]

So, clearly getting ahead of myself, if Hag is the guy we do bring in, who are the players and coaching personal we may bring-in alongside him ?

 

[Andycoleno9]

I remember when people here said that 'patterns of play' didn't exist and was invented by hipsters on Twitter. They were, of course, Ole lovers. We must get ETH! Damn, I've already started dreaming.

Ha ha, exactly. Those same people now want ETH because he is great tactician.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

You have ETH, saying 23 games unbeaten is nothing, he wants the trophies.

On the other hand, you have Poch, tears pouring down his face winning a knockout game in the champions league.

 

[bond19821982]

Fernandez and Laird. Also, Shaw has some football in him if he's motivated! Dalot is a decent backup if so.

Amad.

We have great players in the academy and on loan if we have a coach who is brave enough to use them. I don't rate our first-team squad that high, a lot of players who don't fit into modern football IMO. We do need a new striker though.

Fernandez is a baby. Amad is still a kid. Laird still needs to prove with us . Above all , Shaw is as inconsistent as you can get.

 

[IRN-BRUno]

I don't get the excitement. All these reports are saying is we've made contact and asked about this availability, not offered him the job. I'm assuming we're doing/have done the same for the other candidates too. Am I missing something?

That's how I see it too. It's been clear for ages that ten Hag, Pochettino and Enrique are the main candidates so clearly we're going to contact all 3 of them.

 

[DWelbz19]

Isn't that the point of the new set up? He is a head coach appointment and we seem to trust Murtogh and Ralf's opinions on players - plus Fletcher's input from who in the academy is ready. He will obviously have a profile he's looking for, so as long as they work together, the tactician is what we're missing.

Let’s hope so!

 

[Billy Bullcrap]

Utd need a manager who is strong enough to clear out the dead wood. Until all the overpaid underperforming players are gone there is no way forward. Klopp was fantastic at putting his arm around the dross (ibe etc) before ruthlessly and quickly moving them on

 

[Chairman Steve]

So, clearly getting ahead of myself, if Hag is the guy we do bring in, who are the players and coaching personal we may bring-in alongside him ?

In terms of coaches, hopefully the guys he wants on the team. Let’s not force one of the alumni on him like we seemingly did on LVG with Giggs.

Ralf can basically relay everything he needs to know about the squad in that respect.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don't get the excitement. All these reports are saying is we've made contact and asked about this availability, not offered him the job. I'm assuming we're doing/have done the same for the other candidates too. Am I missing something?

It's because he's the most exciting option for many and we've had very little links with him in the past (I think). Most of the talk has been about the seat being kept warm for Pochettino.

 

[romufc]

So if we get ETH and he doesn't do well, are we going to blame the club? Because it seems obvious who the fans want.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So if we get ETH and he doesn't do well, are we going to blame the club? Because it seems obvious who the fans want.

The day and age of the club hiring a manager and sitting back is long gone. Liverpool for example as a club have a lot to do with their recent success - it isn't just Klopp. ETH would have to be good enough and the club would also have to sort itself out. Also, the club's responsibility isn't to hire the fan's choice but not achieve success - by picking the manager who proves to be good enough, by making good decisions consistently behind the scenes etc. The club hired Mourinho who everyone wanted and it proved to be a failure

 

[romufc]

The day and age of the club hiring a manager and sitting back is long gone. Liverpool for example as a club have a lot to do with their recent success - it isn't just Klopp. ETH would have to be good enough and the club would also have to sort itself out. Also, the club's responsibility isn't to hire the fan's choice but not achieve success - by picking the manager who proves to be good enough, by making good decisions consistently behind the scenes etc. The club hired Mourinho who everyone wanted and it proved to be a failure

Out of interest, what would the club have to sort out for ETH to be successful? I keep reading this but no one explains it.

We have changed our structure, we have a technical director, Ralf, DoF. So it is clear there are steps taken in that direction.

What more is required?

 

[DWelbz19]

So if we get ETH and he doesn't do well, are we going to blame the club? Because it seems obvious who the fans want.

If we appoint him, give him an appropriate platform and he fails - that’s on him, yeah.

 

[L1nk]

Out of interest, what would the club have to sort out for ETH to be successful? I keep reading this but no one explains it.

We have changed our structure, we have a technical director, Ralf, DoF. So it is clear there are steps taken in that direction.

What more is required?

I would assume at this point, whats left is to put it into practice, actually walk the walk and not just talk the talk as that's all we've done for seasons now. It's great things looked to have changed for the better, but lets see it in action now, as how many false dawns have we had? The structed looks like its there for someone like ETH now, but i'll believe it when I see it

 

[romufc]

I would assume at this point, whats left is to put it into practice, actually walk the walk and not just talk the talk as that's all we've done for seasons now. It's great things looked to have changed for the better, but lets see it in action now, as how many false dawns have we had? The structed looks like its there for someone like ETH now, but i'll believe it when I see it

We can talk about structure all we like but also, lets not kid ourselves, our managers have been backed.

LVG, Jose, Ole all got over 150m to spend in their first 2 season. Lets also not forget in their first window, they get the player they want too.

 

[Lash]

Let’s hope so!

I've put the mockers on it now, will be a car crash!

 

[Mickson]

Fernandez is a baby. Amad is still a kid. Laird still needs to prove with us . Above all , Shaw is as inconsistent as you can get.

That's always a lot of talk about that. Look at Barcelona. Laird is so ready you can be. Is AWB ready? Just play them.

 

[VP89]

That's always a lot of talk about that. Look at Barcelona. Laird is so ready you can be. Is AWB ready? Just play them.

Um no that's not really how it works

 

[Mickson]

Um no that's not really how it works

What works?

 

[11101]

The day and age of the club hiring a manager and sitting back is long gone. Liverpool for example as a club have a lot to do with their recent success - it isn't just Klopp. ETH would have to be good enough and the club would also have to sort itself out. Also, the club's responsibility isn't to hire the fan's choice but not achieve success - by picking the manager who proves to be good enough, by making good decisions consistently behind the scenes etc. The club hired Mourinho who everyone wanted and it proved to be a failure

Everybody wanted Mourinho in 2013. I think most of us knew how it would end when we hired him in 2016.

 

[L1nk]

We can talk about structure all we like but also, lets not kid ourselves, our managers have been backed.

LVG, Jose, Ole all got over 150m to spend in their first 2 season. Lets also not forget in their first window, they get the player they want too.

I'm not disagreeing, for sure they were backed. They weren't exactly backed correctly though were they? Our money has been splurged on absolute crap and we've barely got anything to show for it, one of the highest wage bills in the world that has barely sniffed success in multiple seasons, with most players bought even shipped on or throwing out bog standard appearences. ETH thrives at Ajax because of the structure of VDS and Overmars above him, providing the necessary players and such for him to just concentrate on his coaching and getting the best out of the team. Where as our structure has been all about big names for high prices because of their marketability, square pegs in round holes and just ignoring vital positions of need altogether. We need them to back our next manager the right way

 

[VP89]

What works?

Filtering the youth in. You dont just punt them in key games of the season. They first train with the main squad, then they come off the bench in certain games that may already be dead rubber or that we have put to bed, then we take from there.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Out of interest, what would the club have to sort out for ETH to be successful? I keep reading this but no one explains it.

We have changed our structure, we have a technical director, Ralf, DoF. So it is clear there are steps taken in that direction.

What more is required?

I don't think you're getting my point. The club's responsibility doesn't end at changing the structure or hiring the most wanted manager but to actually perform like a well run club and achieve success. The club appoints these people and makes these changes so it's responsible for the eventual outcome. Everyone here wanted for Darmian. That doesn't mean we didnt fecked up in our RB signing.

Note that the above doesn't absolve the next manager from blame. Everyone has a job to do and to succeed at.

 

[Teja]

Out of interest, what would the club have to sort out for ETH to be successful? I keep reading this but no one explains it.

We have changed our structure, we have a technical director, Ralf, DoF. So it is clear there are steps taken in that direction.

What more is required?

For me, the two big functions they have to get right on the football side are recruitment (ins / outs) and tactics. They have some overlap but I think it's good to think of them separately.

It's also a function of what type of club we want to be - if we want to be pragmatists like Real or Chelsea or Juve, we just sign quality players and churn through coaches until someone can make it click. Or if we want to be idealists like Liverpool or City or Barca - we have to sign up for a certain way of playing first and then focus all our recruitment to align with that way of playing.

The problem seems to be we're in a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde situation where we go one way and it doesn't work and then we promptly do a 180 and then that doesn't work either and we keep flip-flopping.

LvG was the idealist - total football, possession etc.
Mou was the pragmatist - take what we have and let's just win something appointment.
Ole continued that trend around pragmatism while signing players he liked (Maguire, AwB, Ronaldo, Bruno - defenders must defend well etc.)
Ralf again goes back into some amount of idealism
and Ten Hag is full circle to LvG and we're basically trying to play Pep-ball.

Obviously it's not quite black and white. Ralf for instance toned down his insistence on the 10 sec rule, intense pressing etc. and is basically using Ole style 4-2-3-1.

If we chose Ten Hag, I hope we just stick with him for 3-4 years regardless of results and see this idea through properly.

 

[romufc]

I'm not disagreeing, for sure they were backed. They weren't exactly backed correctly though were they? Our money has been splurged on absolute crap and we've barely got anything to show for it, one of the highest wage bills in the world that has barely sniffed success in multiple seasons, with most players bought even shipped on or throwing out bog standard appearences. ETH thrives at Ajax because of the structure of VDS and Overmars above him, providing the necessary players and such for him to just concentrate on his coaching and getting the best out of the team. Where as our structure has been all about big names for high prices because of their marketability, square pegs in round holes and just ignoring vital positions of need altogether. We need them to back our next manager the right way

I do get what you are saying but when you look at our signings, the manager has a big say in them.

Us signing, Bailly, Mikhi, Zlatan and Pogba were all given the green light by Jose.
Even under LVG, Di Maria, Memphis, Martial, Blind were all given green light by the manager
Ole got AWB, Maguire, Bruno and even Sancho.

So we can blame the club but they give the managers who they want too.

Where we lack, is our scouting department where we keep going for the most obvious choices rather than finding the player we need. Look at Liverpool, they identify issues and get players before the issue is massive. Jota, Dias, Thiago, Fabinho.

 

[romufc]

For me, the two big functions they have to get right on the football side are recruitment (ins / outs) and tactics. They have some overlap but I think it's good to think of them separately.

It's also a function of what type of club we want to be - if we want to be pragmatists like Real or Chelsea or Juve, we just sign quality players and churn through coaches until someone can make it click. Or if we want to be idealists like Liverpool or City or Barca - we have to sign up for a certain way of playing first and then focus all our recruitment to align with that way of playing.

The problem seems to be we're in a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde situation where we go one way and it doesn't work and then we promptly do a 180 and then that doesn't work either and we keep flip-flopping.

LvG was the idealist - total football, possession etc.
Mou was the pragmatist - take what we have and let's just win something appointment.
Ole continued that trend around pragmatism while signing players he liked (Maguire, AwB, Ronaldo, Bruno - defenders must defend well etc.)
Ralf again goes back into some amount of idealism
and Ten Hag is full circle to LvG and we're basically trying to play Pep-ball.

Obviously it's not quite black and white. Ralf for instance toned down his insistence on the 10 sec rule, intense pressing etc. and is basically using Ole style 4-2-3-1.

If we chose Ten Hag, I hope we just stick with him for 3-4 years regardless of results and see this idea through properly.

I think recruitment is the one we need to get right. If we can manage to find players that are hungry and have things to prove, they are better of than players that only want CL football.

Like you said, if our philosophy is playing football, we need to buy players and hire managers that fit that style.

The bolded part is interesting because, we say we want to stick with a manager but if 12 months down the line we are 12th in the PL with no signs of improvement, he will need to get the sack.

I think we will need to see improvement in the way we play and signs that we will improve.

 

[Rozay]

I'm not disagreeing, for sure they were backed. They weren't exactly backed correctly though were they? Our money has been splurged on absolute crap and we've barely got anything to show for it, one of the highest wage bills in the world that has barely sniffed success in multiple seasons, with most players bought even shipped on or throwing out bog standard appearences. ETH thrives at Ajax because of the structure of VDS and Overmars above him, providing the necessary players and such for him to just concentrate on his coaching and getting the best out of the team. Where as our structure has been all about big names for high prices because of their marketability, square pegs in round holes and just ignoring vital positions of need altogether. We need them to back our next manager the right way

This is all easy to say in hindsight. These big name, marketable players we apparently keep buying earn those names on football pitches, not the Big Brother house. The managers have failed. If we get Ten Hag to go along with Murtough and whoever else creates a structure agreeable with the fans, and we don’t win - then what? I’m sure most people online know very little about the detail of Overmars or Van Der Saar’s work - ultimately, Ajax win football matches, which they have had a habit if doing for quite a long time in Holland.

 

[Teja]

I think recruitment is the one we need to get right. If we can manage to find players that are hungry and have things to prove, they are better of than players that only want CL football.

Like you said, if our philosophy is playing football, we need to buy players and hire managers that fit that style.

The bolded part is interesting because, we say we want to stick with a manager but if 12 months down the line we are 12th in the PL with no signs of improvement, he will need to get the sack.

I think we will need to see improvement in the way we play and signs that we will improve.

Yup it's a tough call. If we're convinced that we have to always play a certain way as a club and that we found the right man to get us to play that way, then we have to sign him up and back him to the hilt like like Southampton, Pool or even Arsenal did with Hasenhüttl, Klopp and Arteta. Of course that might test our conviction if we're sitting in 12th half way through the season and getting smashed by Pool 5-0. But also, that's the easiest way for sustained long term success in football.

The easier way is to keep chopping and changing every few years like RM and Chelsea do until we luck out on someone. The problem is we're not exactly ruthless with coaches and give people too much time. This means that most of the responsibility is with the board / DoF to make sure we're signing good players through all this churn. We can get a good 2-3 years, followed by mediocrity, followed by a few good years again etc. this way, but it's not the worst thing in the world.

I guess the natural progression from Ole is to go to someone like Conte or even Poch who won't demand the same level of technical excellence (in the case of Ten Hag) or physical attributes (Klopp / rest of the Germans) and try to get it to work.

 

[Lash]

Filtering the youth in. You dont just punt them in key games of the season. They first train with the main squad, then they come off the bench in certain games that may already be dead rubber or that we have put to bed, then we take from there.

I don't think anyone's calling them to start against City, but Elanga was brought on in key games and arguably Laird has more mens football experience. If they can only play in games we've put to bed or dead rubbers, you're just saying they won't play for us - we haven't had a game like that all season.