Erik ten Hag | Currently unemployed

Nobby style said:
In Colombia for sure. Fox Sports Latin America was showing Serie A in in the 90s, so I'm sure Argentina, Chile, Uruguay etc were getting it, and Brazil as well. Plus, for example, while Asprilla was playing for Parma, we were getting all his Serie A matches. I'm sure other countries, especially Argentina, had special arrangements to see matches where their stars were playing also. Plus, all the sports center type shows in every South American would give massive coverage to Serie A as all these countries had their best players playing in Italy.
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Fox Sports is cable TV in LatinAmerica, it isn't free, in UK it was shown on national TV for free.

Not many people had cable TV in the 90s in LatinAmerica and the world in general.
In my country only upper class neighborhoods in 3 cities had it back then, same goes for Internet...in terms of population, barely 10% could watch Serie A on cable TV.

Argentina was the exception, they aired some Serie A matches on national TV, but the coverage was very small, as they only cared about matches that featured argentinian players, which means they gave zero fecks about AC Milan and Juventus (best italian teams back then) as those teams did have zero argentinian players.
You perfectly know that argentinians don't care about teams that don't have argentinian players due to their ego, even the argentinian feed of ESPN has reduced its coverage of Barcelona after Messi left Catalunya, now they are giving way more coverage of Sevilla for Erik Lamela,Papu Gomez, and Lucas Ocampo.

The international reach of Serie A in 90s was super small compared to the PL now, it was a way less globalized world.
The Premier League peaked in the the perfect moment, a fully globalized world where most people can access to internet and cable.
 
Terranova said:
i already did. Ralf is a step in the right direction, but he still didn't convince me. That said as a Dutchman and an Ajax fan, i kinda dislike any thing other than 4-3-3 or 4-3-3 based tactics like 4-2-3-1.
4-3-3 is still the best way to play football, no wonder that the best teams in the world still use tactics based on Total Football. Modernized versions of course, like ETH is playing with Ajax or like Pep is doing at City.
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didn't convince you is different to saying he has no tactical knowledge?

So is that what you think? Ralk has no idea about tactics or players ability?

I agree with the 4-3-3 being a good formation but that does not mean the likes of Nagglesman with Bayern and Conte are not good managers or produce good teams.
 
Terranova said:
That's not fair to assume. Ajax is rather rich especially for the competition and level they are at. But instead of going for ageing players they tend to go for younger talented players. A thing we should do here as well.
Ten Hag really has a problem with squad rotation, players like Rensch, who's a very young and talented defender and already played for the Dutch NT, barely get minutes unless there's an injury.

Ajax has a lot of players that have the required level to play for Ajax, but Ten Hag almost always favors the same XI. "Permanent" changes in that XI only happen due to injuries. Players like Dest, Mazraoui, Timber and most recently Berghuis were never going to play until there were injuries. They never got out of the lineup after that. Dest even was sold to Barcelona.

The problem with Ten Hag is that whenever there are injuries the whole thing kinda falls apart. Sure Ajax still plays well enough to win most matches, but it's a steep decline nonetheless .
That said, his Plan A is absolutely fantastic
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People will not like it, but this right here is mayor red flags if true. It might be an indication that his approach would not work as well in the PL.
 
romufc said:
didn't convince you is different to saying he has no tactical knowledge?

So is that what you think? Ralk has no idea about tactics or players ability?

I agree with the 4-3-3 being a good formation but that does not mean the likes of Nagglesman with Bayern and Conte are not good managers or produce good teams.
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Not saying he hasn't but i think his tactical knowledge is a bit outdated. Or he's forced to play in a certain way now to accommodate for our abundance of attacking players.

Btw Nagelsman still plays a system that's based on 4-3-3. Most of the times that is. Depends on which players are available.
 
Terranova said:
Not saying he hasn't but i think his tactical knowledge is a bit outdated. Or he's forced to play in a certain way now to accommodate for our abundance of attacking players.

Btw Nagelsman still plays a system that's based on 4-3-3. Most of the times that is. Depends on which players are available.
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His tactical knowledge is outdated? But yet he is the one who was the one to introduce the high pressing football that Klopp, Nagglesman play, are you saying they are outdated too?

United have been playing 4-3-3 in the last few games with no Donny in the midfield. A manager who cannot play Donny = outdated tactics is funny.
 
Terranova said:
Not saying he hasn't but i think his tactical knowledge is a bit outdated. Or he's forced to play in a certain way now to accommodate for our abundance of attacking players.

Btw Nagelsman still plays a system that's based on 4-3-3. Most of the times that is. Depends on which players are available.
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Currently he mostly uses a 3241 system. That is closer to Rangnick's 4222 than to a 433.
 
I don’t think he’ll end up here - he seems a bit too “out there” for our Board - I think we’ll go for a (perceived) safer pair of hands in Pochettino or perhaps even Rangnick for an extended term.

I can see Ten Hag ending up at City, or Newcastle as an outside chance.
 
romufc said:
His tactical knowledge is outdated? But yet he is the one who was the one to introduce the high pressing football that Klopp, Nagglesman play, are you saying they are outdated too?

United have been playing 4-3-3 in the last few games with no Donny in the midfield. A manager who cannot play Donny = outdated tactics is funny.
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Outdated yes, Klopp and Nagelsmann took it a step further, Ragnick stayed behind. There's a reason nobody wanted Ragnick the last few years.

Van Gaal had the same thing happen. Built upon the Cruyff way, influenced many other coaches, but when he arrived at United it was clear his tactical knowledge was a bit outdated.

stefan92 said:
Currently he mostly uses a 3241 system. That is closer to Rangnick's 4222 than to a 433.
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Bayern Munich - Fixtures by date | Transfermarkt

Usually 4-2-3-1. Sometimes 3-2-4-1.Recently only the last match they played was 3241, the five before that 4231
 
Terranova said:
Outdated yes, Klopp and Nagelsmann took it a step further, Ragnick stayed behind. There's a reason nobody wanted Ragnick the last few years.

Van Gaal had the same thing happen. Built upon the Cruyff way, influenced many other coaches, but when he arrived at United it was clear his tactical knowledge was a bit outdated.


Bayern Munich - Fixtures by date | Transfermarkt

Usually 4-2-3-1. Sometimes 3-2-4-1.Recently only the last match they played was 3241, the five before that 4231
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Nobody wanted him? I mean he moved from coach to director of football, shows how much some value his philosophy?

Also 4-3-2-1 is not 4-3-3 either.
 
romufc said:
His tactical knowledge is outdated? But yet he is the one who was the one to introduce the high pressing football that Klopp, Nagglesman play, are you saying they are outdated too?
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Tbf it's over a decade since Klopp came to prominence at Dortmund with his high-pressing approach, with a whole new generation of managers like Naglesmann having arrived on the scene since then as well. We're not exactly talking about a cutting edge idea here, so having influenced it's emergence as a trend quite a while ago doesn't automatically mean Rangnick is on top of current tactical trends.
 
romufc said:
Nobody wanted him? I mean he moved from coach to director of football, shows how much some value his philosophy?

Also 4-3-2-1 is not 4-3-3 either.
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Yes, if he really was that good, a big club would've picked him up and btw 4-2-3-1 is based on 4-3-3 and basically is 4-3-3 with slightly different instructions(even though those instructions always have been a part of the Dutch 4-3-3 without anyone calling it 4-2-3-1 up until a few years ago
 
sullydnl said:
Tbf it's over a decade since Klopp came to prominence at Dortmund with his high-pressing approach, with a whole new generation of managers like Naglesmann having arrived on the scene since then as well. We're not exactly talking about a cutting edge idea here, so having influenced it's emergence as a trend quite a while ago doesn't automatically mean Rangnick is on top of current tactical trends.
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Saying his tactics are outdated is not entirely true either is it? He managed Leipzig in 18/19 when they actually played really well, got far in the CL too. So its not like he hasn't managed in the last 10 years.

The poster is just upset that another manager has overloooked Donny.
 
Terranova said:
Yes, if he really was that good, a big club would've picked him up and btw 4-2-3-1 is based on 4-3-3 and basically is 4-3-3 with slightly different instructions(even though those instructions always have been a part of the Dutch 4-3-3 without anyone calling it 4-2-3-1 up until a few years ago
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That's like saying the 4-2-3-1 is a variation to the 4-3-3 with different instructions. Clubs have won things without playing 4-3-3. Tuchel played a 5-2-3 in the CL last season and PL this season. Conte won the Italian league with a 5-3-2 formation.

There is no guaranteed success with any formation, its more how a manager implements it.
 
Terranova said:
Usually 4-2-3-1. Sometimes 3-2-4-1.Recently only the last match they played was 3241, the five before that 4231
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Not really. The 4231 that is listed there is interpreted extremely asymmetrically. In reality Davies is playing and staying so far up front that 3241 really fits better to describe their formation. I would agree that it is a related system, but it definitely is not what you usually would see as a 4231. He uses two CM and two CAM like a 4222 does - who is listed as LW in a 4231 is playing much more centrally most of the time.

Besides I agree with you that a 4231 is usually a specific variation of a 433. It's mostly a question of what kind of midfielders you use.
 
romufc said:
Saying his tactics are outdated is not entirely true either is it? He managed Leipzig in 18/19 when they actually played really well, got far in the CL too. So its not like he hasn't managed in the last 10 years.

The poster is just upset that another manager has overloooked Donny.
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Tbf I have no idea how outdated the details of his approach are, to what extent younger managers have developed beyond the mechanics of his original ideas, or to what extent they've moved on tactically in other aspects of the game. Someone with more tactical insight than me would need to breakdown what younger managers like Naglesmann are doing currently and how it has built on what went before.

But I'd be surprised if it hadn't developed given two generations of managers have emerged since Rangnick, with the very heavy Guariola influence no doubt present in their approach too. And having sat through the LVG era, I'd be slow to conflate "influenced current tactical trends" with "is an exponent of current tactical trends", particularly in the context of us looking for a manager to modernise our approach.
 
sullydnl said:
Tbf I have no idea how outdated the details of his approach are, to what extent younger managers have developed beyond the mechanics of his original ideas, or to what extent they've moved on tactically in other aspects of the game. Someone with more tactical insight than me would need to breakdown what younger managers like Naglesmann are doing currently and how it has built on what went before.

But I'd be surprised if it hadn't developed given two generations of managers have emerged since Rangnick, with the very heavy Guariola influence no doubt present in their approach too. And having sat through the LVG era, I'd be slow to conflate "influenced current tactical trends" with "is an exponent of current tactical trends", particularly in the context of us looking for a manager to modernise our approach.
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I think we can be sure that Rangnick moved on. Those who followed his original approach to the letter are either completely irrelevant today (for example Mirko Slomka) or at least not coaching at elite level (like Hasenhüttl, who even got fired by Rangnick for not evolving enough).

Coaches like Nagelsmann or ten Hag (to get slowly back on topic here) essentially use Rangnick's old rules in defence and transition, but add another dimension to it in possession. They are no counter attack merchants like the lesser managers, but really add another gear to their possession play. In a way you could say that they combine attacking principles of Dutch total football with a more structured pressing.

And I would say Rangnick himself proved that he evolved along that, as the transition Hasenhüttl-> Rangnick -> Nagelsmann worked quite smooth in Leipzig.

That's why I also believe he is the right interim between Ole and ten Hag, what happened in Leipzig was a similar evolution.
 
romufc said:
That's like saying the 4-2-3-1 is a variation to the 4-3-3 with different instructions. Clubs have won things without playing 4-3-3. Tuchel played a 5-2-3 in the CL last season and PL this season. Conte won the Italian league with a 5-3-2 formation.

There is no guaranteed success with any formation, its more how a manager implements it.
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Winning doesn't mean good football is played. Also i never said that anything other than 433 is so bad that it isn't possible to win anything.

stefan92 said:
Not really. The 4231 that is listed there is interpreted extremely asymmetrically. In reality Davies is playing and staying so far up front that 3241 really fits better to describe their formation. I would agree that it is a related system, but it definitely is not what you usually would see as a 4231. He uses two CM and two CAM like a 4222 does - who is listed as LW in a 4231 is playing much more centrally most of the time.

Besides I agree with you that a 4231 is usually a specific variation of a 433. It's mostly a question of what kind of midfielders you use.
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I disagree that Bayern isn't playing 4231. Ajax for example plays 433/4231. But actually not so much. Because the Ajax philosophy is based around players being able to play almost everywhere on the pitch. So in possession the 433, goes to 3-2-4-1, even more asymmetrical than Bayern.
But the tactic is still listed as a 433/4231. That's what i meant by instructions.
So Nagelsmanns tactics are still somewhat based on the 433 i mentioned. Sure it evolved into a modern system with the Ragnick influence cleary visible, but the base is still in there.

That said i still think Ragnicks tactics are outdated, but like romufc said, i'm clearly only pissed that VDB isn't playing and not at all worried about Ragnick, who the board thought wasn't good enough for the permanent job...:rolleyes:

Ten Hag however is good enough, perfect blend of Total Football with German influences, bit like Pep.
 
Terranova said:
Winning doesn't mean good football is played. Also i never said that anything other than 433 is so bad that it isn't possible to win anything.


I disagree that Bayern isn't playing 4231. Ajax for example plays 433/4231. But actually not so much. Because the Ajax philosophy is based around players being able to play almost everywhere on the pitch. So in possession the 433, goes to 3-2-4-1, even more asymmetrical than Bayern.
But the tactic is still listed as a 433/4231. That's what i meant by instructions.
So Nagelsmanns tactics are still somewhat based on the 433 i mentioned. Sure it evolved into a modern system with the Ragnick influence cleary visible, but the base is still in there.

That said i still think Ragnicks tactics are outdated, but like romufc said, i'm clearly only pissed that VDB isn't playing and not at all worried about Ragnick, who the board thought wasn't good enough for the permanent job...:rolleyes:

Ten Hag however is good enough, perfect blend of Total Football with German influences, bit like Pep.
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Please have a look at the heatmaps for matches from Ajax and Bayern. You will clearly see that Ajax is operating with two CBs and the FBs are on average positioned just a bit ahead of them (while in game they are not necessarily both attacking at the same time, thus creating the asymmetry you mentioned).

Bayern on the other hand are obviously operating with a clear three at the back while the wingers/wing backs are operating much further up front than Ajax' FBs. So writing that formation as a symmetric 3241 is much closer to reality than calling it an asymmetric 4231.
 
Terranova said:
Winning doesn't mean good football is played. Also i never said that anything other than 433 is so bad that it isn't possible to win anything.


I disagree that Bayern isn't playing 4231. Ajax for example plays 433/4231. But actually not so much. Because the Ajax philosophy is based around players being able to play almost everywhere on the pitch. So in possession the 433, goes to 3-2-4-1, even more asymmetrical than Bayern.
But the tactic is still listed as a 433/4231. That's what i meant by instructions.
So Nagelsmanns tactics are still somewhat based on the 433 i mentioned. Sure it evolved into a modern system with the Ragnick influence cleary visible, but the base is still in there.

That said i still think Ragnicks tactics are outdated, but like romufc said, i'm clearly only pissed that VDB isn't playing and not at all worried about Ragnick, who the board thought wasn't good enough for the permanent job...:rolleyes:

Ten Hag however is good enough, perfect blend of Total Football with German influences, bit like Pep.
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Maybe because his qualities in the boardroom are appreciated more, building a philosophy and structuring a football club.

Also... wow the United board think that so it must be right? They thought Ole was the one to bring us the title...
 
romufc said:
The biggest stadium, history, its actually a very good job.

If a manager like Ten Hag is as good as people say he is, he would be looking at the team, the players United have, the budget per summer, the youth and would probably think, yeah I think I could win them the title and I will become a legend.

People don't realise but this job has alot of things that other jobs don't. Even Klopp at Liverpool, does not get the same budget.

Chelsea, managers dont get time.

We literally give managers time, more time than we should at times to get it right.
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We gave Solskjær too much time because he is a legend, at least a lot of people thinks he is. We didn’t give Moyes time, we sacked van Gaal after he won a trophy and hired the new guy before telling him, we also sacked Mourinho quickly. Stop with the argument, it isn’t true just because we messed up entirely with the least professional of the lot.
 
James Peril said:
We gave Solskjær too much time because he is a legend, at least a lot of people thinks he is. We didn’t give Moyes time, we sacked van Gaal after he won a trophy and hired the new guy before telling him, we also sacked Mourinho quickly. Stop with the argument, it isn’t true just because we messed up entirely with the least professional of the lot.
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Mourinho was sacked quickly? He imploded, fell out with the players, moaned, tried to fall out with the fans. Its not an argument, its the truth.

All those points are exactly my point, the board didn't know what they were doing... even now, read the news today and reports that Ralf is favourite for the job.
 
James Peril said:
We gave Solskjær too much time because he is a legend, at least a lot of people thinks he is. We didn’t give Moyes time, we sacked van Gaal after he won a trophy and hired the new guy before telling him, we also sacked Mourinho quickly. Stop with the argument, it isn’t true just because we messed up entirely with the least professional of the lot.
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Not true. Moyes should have sacked the moment when Rio was asked to watch Jagielka videos (read it as when we had bad set of results) yet he was given 8 months. LVG should have sacked in December yet he was given time to finish in top 4.

Jose deserved the sack after the Sevilla season.
 
stefan92 said:
Please have a look at the heatmaps for matches from Ajax and Bayern. You will clearly see that Ajax is operating with two CBs and the FBs are on average positioned just a bit ahead of them (while in game they are not necessarily both attacking at the same time, thus creating the asymmetry you mentioned).

Bayern on the other hand are obviously operating with a clear three at the back while the wingers/wing backs are operating much further up front than Ajax' FBs. So writing that formation as a symmetric 3241 is much closer to reality than calling it an asymmetric 4231.
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Can you share those heatmaps, because having seen every match as has played in the last 20ish years, i'm not convinced this is the case. Mazraoui regularly pops up in the opponents box, Blind not that much, but still goes up a lot. But then again, i don't have the heatmaps, so it might be just an illusion :p Ajax pretty much always has the "CDM" drop between the CBs and the wingbacks becoming extra attackers. This season a bit less because Blind is so slow that he wouldn't be able to run a full pitch in 45 mins. But normally the wingbacks are wingers and the wingers going inside quite a lot
 
Terranova said:
Can you share those heatmaps, because having seen every match as has played in the last 20ish years, i'm not convinced this is the case. Mazraoui regularly pops up in the opponents box, Blind not that much, but still goes up a lot. But then again, i don't have the heatmaps, so it might be just an illusion :p Ajax pretty much always has the "CDM" drop between the CBs and the wingbacks becoming extra attackers. This season a bit less because Blind is so slow that he wouldn't be able to run a full pitch in 45 mins. But normally the wingbacks are wingers and the wingers going inside quite a lot
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Here you go:
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...lands-Eredivisie-2021-2022-PSV-Eindhoven-Ajax

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...desliga-2021-2022-Hertha-Berlin-Bayern-Munich

(scroll down and click on player positions)

I checked a few more for both teams, they look quite similar. Especially for Bayern where transfermarkt claimed they used different formations - they did not)
Just look at the CB positioning which is quite narrow for Ajax (with the DM just in front of them), while it is quite wide for Bayern's three CBs, who have a clear LCB, CB and RCB. I fully agree with your description of Ajax, but I want to insist that Bayern is not playing 4231, but a real back three.

Edit: I think that 4231 listing instead of 3241 is just caused by the fact that transfermarkt list Davies as a LB and Coman as a winger. But Davies played the exact same role Coman did against Hertha.
 
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stefan92 said:
Here you go:
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...lands-Eredivisie-2021-2022-PSV-Eindhoven-Ajax

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...desliga-2021-2022-Hertha-Berlin-Bayern-Munich

(scroll down and click on player positions)

I checked a few more for both teams, they look quite similar. Especially for Bayern where transfermarkt claimed they used different formations - they did not)
Just look at the CB positioning which is quite narrow for Ajax (with the DM just in front of them), while it is quite wide for Bayern's three CBs, who have a clear LCB, CB and RCB. I fully agree with your description of Ajax, but I want to insist that Bayern is not playing 4231, but a real back three.

Edit: I think that 4231 listing instead of 3241 is just caused by the fact that transfermarkt list Davies as a LB and Coman as a winger. But Davies played the exact same role Coman did against Hertha.
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Fair enough for Bayern, but fyi, the last few matches for Ajax were the toughest they get in a season, if you look back a bit further, you'll see a bit better how they play. But still a narrow "3 at the back".
 
Terranova said:
Fair enough for Bayern, but fyi, the last few matches for Ajax were the toughest they get in a season, if you look back a bit further, you'll see a bit better how they play. But still a narrow "3 at the back".
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The beauty of Ajax' style is that it is consistent. There are differences how deep they have to drop (especially how deep the DM drops compared to the CBs), but apart from that it is quite similar every game.

Ajax narrow back means that they have to operate in tighter spaces, while Bayern keep the pitch wide at the back.

In comparison I would say Bayerns formation is more vulnerable for counter attacks as the CBs keep some distance to each other, but makes it easier to recycle possession all over the pitch. Ajax are playing a bit more technical and keep spaces tight while Bayern are more physical and happy to move the ball for wider distances around.
 
Wolf1992 said:
Fox Sports is cable TV in LatinAmerica, it isn't free, in UK it was shown on national TV for free.

Not many people had cable TV in the 90s in LatinAmerica and the world in general.
In my country only upper class neighborhoods in 3 cities had it back then, same goes for Internet...in terms of population, barely 10% could watch Serie A on cable TV.

Argentina was the exception, they aired some Serie A matches on national TV, but the coverage was very small, as they only cared about matches that featured argentinian players, which means they gave zero fecks about AC Milan and Juventus (best italian teams back then) as those teams did have zero argentinian players.
You perfectly know that argentinians don't care about teams that don't have argentinian players due to their ego, even the argentinian feed of ESPN has reduced its coverage of Barcelona after Messi left Catalunya, now they are giving way more coverage of Sevilla for Erik Lamela,Papu Gomez, and Lucas Ocampo.

The international reach of Serie A in 90s was super small compared to the PL now, it was a way less globalized world.
The Premier League peaked in the the perfect moment, a fully globalized world where most people can access to internet and cable.
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So yes, loads of us down south were watching Serie A in the 90s, as I said, nearly every weekend in Colombia (you were seeing Parma against every side twice), and sounds like Argentina as well, and surely other countries. And the talking heads of sports programs covered it obsessively, as it was the best league around, and most South American countries had players in the Serie A. Obviously not like the coverage now, nor near as big as the coverage of the PL is at the moment, but that's not the point. My response was was to some other poster who was saying the the Southern Hemisphere wasn't getting any coverage of Serie A which is patently false.
 
Nobby style said:
So yes, loads of us down south were watching Serie A in the 90s, as I said, nearly every weekend in Colombia (you were seeing Parma against every side twice), and sounds like Argentina as well, and surely other countries. And the talking heads of sports programs covered it obsessively, as it was the best league around, and most South American countries had players in the Serie A. Obviously not like the coverage now, nor near as big as the coverage of the PL is at the moment, but that's not the point. My response was was to some other poster who was saying the the Southern Hemisphere wasn't getting any coverage of Serie A which is patently false.
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Most SA countries didn't have players in 90s Serie A, it was Brazil,Argentina, Uruguay a for a while Colombia.

Plus the coverage was mainly games that featured players of their nationality, which is why in Argentina they didn't give much coverage to Juventus and Milan as those didn't have argentinian players, despite being better teams than Lazio,Parma, and Fiorentina.

To put an example, imagine if argentinian ESPN nowadays gave more coverage to West Ham (because of Manuel Lanzini) than to City and Liverpool, just because the latter don't have argentinian players despite being the best teams of the league... sounds ridiculous, but it was what happened back then with Serie A in Argentina.
That changed in the late 90s, when they started to broadcast more Serie A matches in the weekends, not just 1 or 2, so they weren't forced to choose anymore.

I reckon that SA had some coverage of Serie A, but it wasn't big, and it was mostly games that featured our players.
The last year ESPN aired a PL game between Leicester vs Burnley(far from being best teams in the league and have zero southamerican players) FFS, unthinkable in the 90s.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Yup. We will wait till he is gone and then hire fired Poch
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Sadly yes or Poch will get fired before the end of the season and we won't even consider Ten Hag in the summer or Enrique in 2023.

We will move decisively for Poch and tie him down to a 6 year £25m a year contract, beating no one to him. We'll call it a great coup to take us to titles and glory before sacking him 3 years later with 1 sweet FA Cup to show for it.

He's a decent coach but can't beat Pep or Klopp, so what's the point. We won't win the league with him unless Pep and Klopp leave. Maybe that's the plan: outlast them.
 
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