Jesus Christ man
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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Jesus Christ man
It’s ironic to me that social media and all the access to football has somehow made people a lot worse at judging it. Very strange.
Hard to know if the tactic of having Bruno/Mount as the 2 most forward players (for pressing purposes) is a temporary tactic or something EtH is going to build around long term.
If it is then you have to question where Hojlund/Zirkzee fit in and where Ugarte (I heard it's close
) fits into the current 4-2-2-2 formation.
All a bit muddy.
If it is then you have to question where Hojlund/Zirkzee fit in and where Ugarte (I heard it's close
) fits into the current 4-2-2-2 formation.All a bit muddy.
You're crashing out. Pogba was the only United player in a team of the season line-up comprised fully of City and Liverpool players. He had periods where newspapers columns called him the best player in the league, and he was integral to some of the few trophies we've won since Ferguson left. Pogba wasn't a success of a signing, largely due to the mess the club was in and partially due to him, but he wasn't a failure either - if so, certainly far, far from the worst ones or close to Antony.
Ironically enough, Ten Hag could do with a midfielder like this:
I am convinced Erik isn't able to execute it due to not being tactically astute, also will moan he still hasn't got the players either
All I heard was that INEOS weren't sold on any of them. If they want to sack him, they clearly will despite what you believe.
And that's the problem. Ten Hag isn't experiencing teething issues, he isn't still getting used to the league. This is simply his level.
After considering the cost.
Was the performance against Fulham at home really a good performance? We weren't as open as we were last season I suppose. It was okay, I thought Brighton was okay too.
With the money spent, the time commited and the carte blanche in the coaching set up with two managers now as assistants we really need to be setting ourselves as Man Utd apart from the Fulhams and the Brightons of this world.
The fact that close games with them both is seen as a positive after all of that is quite glaring for me.
Nah.
It's "very early to conclude" whether or not ETH has tactically set up his team well by his third season in *checks notes* his third season???
How much time is needed before conclusions can be drawn? Or does the timer conveniently reset each season?
Tend to agree with this. There's so much quality, even down at the bottom of the PL, that if you're not controlling games you WILL give up chances and you WILL be punished.
It's always the teams that are tough to break down and tough to control possession against that do well in league formats.
Lets look at what you said:
"or in his third season at United hasn’t managed to tactically set up his team to a level that comfortably exceeds that of Brighton."
^ There are two problems with this statement. 1) That you think our problem vs Brighton was tactical, and 2) You'd take a 1 game sample size to conclude our readiness for season 3.
Both are equally poor takes.
There was nothing tactically wrong with the last two games.
Fans have become obsessed with tactics as a kind of go to explanation.
This.
Actually you can even simplify it further.
It's almost always the teams that average the most possession that ends up winning their respective leagues in every single country, period. Some exceptions to the rule, but that's the gist of it.
There are a million ways to explain why Pep's tactic are so effective. But you only need to focus on one thing to really understand why it's so effective: They hardly let their opposition have the ball. And the law of physics are pretty obvious: You can't score without the ball, and likewise, you can only score with the ball.
So in summary... More possession = More success. Unless your team is a statistical freak of nature, or Louis van Gaal is your manager.
Sidenote: This does not apply as strongly to cup competitions for obvious reasons. Cups are much more dependent on luck and tons of other random factors than a league season with 30+ games. It's much, much easier for a mediocre team to go far in a cup than to win the league.
Less injuries is another byproduct of this style also. Takes less out the players and creates so much confidence which breeds enhanced performance levels.
I think first half Utd were very good and despite being one nil down, there were plenty of positive plays such as Dalot cross for Amad, Mount chance after lay off from Bruno, Amad 3 vs 2 break where any half decent pass to Bruno or Rashford should have resulted in goal, then there was disallowed goal from Rashford etc. Defensively, we barely allowed Brighton to create anything and their goal was their first chance, which was also down to individual mistake by Maguire and was very avoidable, if he had cleared it from the left foot instead of letting it run across the goal.
Second half we reverted to tennis football from last season, which is becoming a recurring them as same occurred against Fulham as well. They also had a few chances but didn't convert them.
Now there are a few observations and questions i have in my mind, In both matches the common element was Mount taken off and after that our press went to shit. Is it because Mount is just a better presser than Zhirkee, ideally somebody coming on should be fresher and improve our pressing, however it tends to have a negative impact on us, or is it overall our team gets tired after an hour. Or our players are just thick, the best example is Mainoo pressing the keeper at 95th min and their keeper just pinging the ball on the side and they attack their final attack which led to corner and subsequent goal.
Biggest question is, what's our best eleven (assuming Ugarte also signs). Do we play Ugarte and Casemiro as double Pivot, then what happens with Mainoo or we change it to 3 in middle. Then assuming Bruno will take false 9 role, what happens with Hojlund or Zhirkee.
A lot of these questions will be answered in coming weeks. But one thing is for sure, the forks are already out for ETH, and it was expected as well, considering last season, therefore making the decision to continue with him questionable in hindsight.
Second half we reverted to tennis football from last season, which is becoming a recurring them as same occurred against Fulham as well. They also had a few chances but didn't convert them.
Now there are a few observations and questions i have in my mind, In both matches the common element was Mount taken off and after that our press went to shit. Is it because Mount is just a better presser than Zhirkee, ideally somebody coming on should be fresher and improve our pressing, however it tends to have a negative impact on us, or is it overall our team gets tired after an hour. Or our players are just thick, the best example is Mainoo pressing the keeper at 95th min and their keeper just pinging the ball on the side and they attack their final attack which led to corner and subsequent goal.
Biggest question is, what's our best eleven (assuming Ugarte also signs). Do we play Ugarte and Casemiro as double Pivot, then what happens with Mainoo or we change it to 3 in middle. Then assuming Bruno will take false 9 role, what happens with Hojlund or Zhirkee.
A lot of these questions will be answered in coming weeks. But one thing is for sure, the forks are already out for ETH, and it was expected as well, considering last season, therefore making the decision to continue with him questionable in hindsight.
1) That you think our problem vs Brighton was tactical
Welbeck's goal came from an unopposed cross from the right half space. Your midfield offered zero resistance. Then Mitoma played a cutback from within your penaly area. I've seen United concede that goal countless times over the last two seasons. If something happens that often, you have a tactical issue.
A 38 year old James Milner was able to waltz into your box and beat your keeper with a shot that had to be saved off of the line. He didn't blow away your defenders with pace. He didn't dazzle them with skill. He didn't bully them with strength. He just identified the yawning gaps in your backline that are a result of a poor tactical set up.
Welbeck hit the bar with a free header of a free kick that you were poorly set up to deal with.
This mistake was repeated with Brighton's winner (except there were two unmarked Brighton players on hand who could have scored). Preparing for set pieces is critical part of the tactical planning. Arteta, like other Managers, hired a Coach to focus purely on it. United were poorly set up to deal with the threat Brighton posed.
2) You'd take a 1 game sample size to conclude our readiness for season 3.
I haven't mentioned United's readiness for season 3 - that's your own invention. I said that "in his third season at United hasn’t managed to tactically set up his team to a level that comfortably exceeds that of Brighton." But you knew that, seeing as you quoted it in an earlier reply.
ETH has managed 117 games for United. This weekend is game week 2. You keep mentioning the second of those facts, but I would have thought the first one is more relevant when assessing how well United are coached.
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Absolutely, you are spot on.
The more possession you have, the less:
High intensity recovery runs.
High intensity forward sprints which we see in transitional teams.
Challenges for the ball.
In general, you conserve a lot of energy by just keeping the ball and having full control of a game.
It's no coincidence that teams like City barely get any injuries compared to us. Their game is centered around control. And controlling a game of football is the best way to conserve energy.
Anyone who's ever played football knows that it's incredibly taxing to play a game where the opposition has the ball and you have to constantly chase after it. It's both physically and mentally draining. It also kills morale, quickly. Just as you mentioned about confidence dropping when you spend so much time and energy without the ball.
It's baffling that so many of our fans don't understand this, not to mention our very own manager.
This has been a really depressing weekend to be a United fan. City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal all cruise to easy wins. Meanwhile we shit the bed a concede a last minute goal to Brighton.
If we don't beat Liverpool on Sunday, INEOS need to get out their manager short list and start reviewing options. We can't afford to spend another season drifting along and giving Ten Hag time in the vain hope that it might magically improve. Sunday is do or die for me.
If we don't beat Liverpool on Sunday, INEOS need to get out their manager short list and start reviewing options. We can't afford to spend another season drifting along and giving Ten Hag time in the vain hope that it might magically improve. Sunday is do or die for me.
It's tough to say tbh. I really thought we'd start the season strong, given how obviously important it is to the manager given last year.
And we've been alright. Not near where I hoped we'd be though.
At some stage it's not bad luck, and given the next few matches, I don't see how ETH turns this around.
Good news is I do think this has been an awesome summer for ins and outs. The squad is utterly transformed from 3 years ago, and Antony and Casemiro aside, it's well setup for the next manager.
And we've been alright. Not near where I hoped we'd be though.
At some stage it's not bad luck, and given the next few matches, I don't see how ETH turns this around.
Good news is I do think this has been an awesome summer for ins and outs. The squad is utterly transformed from 3 years ago, and Antony and Casemiro aside, it's well setup for the next manager.
INEOS decided to stick with him, and the majority of fans agreed to it. One loss, and you guys want him sacked. Give it a month, shall we.
The first goal is a cut back that many oppositions try against various teams, easily enough cut out by a player with better agility than Maguire. Maguire was very poor in failing to cut that out - there was nothing structural or tactically wrong. A frankly bizzare take to blame tactics on a goal that had 5 players in the box needing to mark 3 Brighton attackers, one defender of whom was literally in front of the goal scorer in a good position to cut the ball out.
The Milner incident came from a 3 vs 3 incident, which again, happens in many games but for some reason is only a factor of controversy with Manchester United.
By the way - if I were to analyze Arsenal with the same level of criticism, it's easy to pull their pants down too - and they are still seen to have the best defence in the league (which I agree with). Wolves with a point blank header free on goal, Aston Villa with various ACTUAL gaping chances vs Arsenal in the first half, etc etc.
I don't think Arsenal had a tactical problem though, and I sure as hell don't think we had a tactical issue either.
As for point 2:
You just said a statement that's a poor take - suggesting we lost out to Brighton because of our tactics. For anyone that watched our game there were some issues but tactics certainly wasn't one. Amad missed a big chance himself, we were very unlucky with the disallowed goal, and our biggest 'problem' is the rawness of our attack which needs to find their conviction in the final third. We're among the highest in winning the ball in the final third and have good action areas in these positions, so to suggest we have some tactical problem is a bit bollocks.
I think ETH style of play, could work but it needs world class finishers and players with amazing decision making, who would make right passes at the time of turnovers and are practically ruthless. De Bruyne, David Silva type midfielders and Rooney, RVP, Haaland type finishers.
Whereas we have Rashford, Amad and Garnacho on the wings whose decision making is very patchy, our strikers or Ams (Bruno, Mount, Hojlund) are not sure shot finishers as well.
Thus we always let other teams stay in the game, and they always have belief that we will give them chances. Our life would be easier if our players were clinical in finishing and decision making and could put games to bed.
Stop watching football
An arsenal fan with much more insight theb deluded ETH fans!
I get your point, I really do.
It could work in a dreamlike scenario, but like you say, it would require world class finishers across our entire attacking line, as well as 2-3 midfielders who score a lot of goals. That's a bit unrealistic. We will never have 3 prime Ronaldos up front. And even if we did, we would also need 3 prime Scholes behind them to feed them.
We would also need to almost double our xG. It's a false myth that we don't score enough of our chances. We actually average pretty much bang on our xG, meaning on average over a league season, we generally score as much as we can expect to from the quality of chances we produce.
While it's true that we miss chances, a lot of our goals are also very lucky ones, produced from individual moments of brilliance. So they average each other out.
The best teams basically pass the ball into the net, creating tons of high value chances that are impossible to not score from unless you're in a wheelchair. City doesn't win the league because Haaland scores an overhead kick from the edge of the box. They win the league because they always have the ball, which effectively means they will create lots more high quality chances than other teams. As long as their striker isn't bed-ridden, they will score tons of goals. Because their playing style is based on control.
Winning the league by being a transitional team is such an uphill battle. It's like knowingly picking a strategy for warfare that has very little success rate, and expecting it to somehow work. It's not consistent enough, not even with a really good team and manager... Look at Liverpool under Klopp. Great players, fantastic coach... Still only managed 1 league title.
Pep's possession is the way to go, 9/10 times. You might tweak it and put your own flair on it. But there's no way you get anywhere near winning 4 titles on the bounce by utilizing a tactic that's inherently volatile and unpredictable. It's like trying to beat the house at a casino 4 times in a row. The odds are not in your favor.
Possession ensures the odds are vastly in your favor. It's statistically the closest thing you ever get to any guarantee of success. There is no team or player in the world who can put the ball in your net, as long as you keep them from having the ball. Except for an own goal...
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Have Arsenal been lucky these first two games? Yes. I'd say we've had tactical issues across the two games. However, we're generally well-drilled so our problems our likely to be ironed out soon.
United are not well-drilled. You're poorly coached and have been for some time. It's not "a frankly bizzare take to blame tactics on a goal that had 5 players in the box needing to mark 3 Brighton attackers", unless your idea of defensive tactics extends only as far as having a lot people at the back.
Reasonable people can disagree about whether ETH is doing a good job. After all, Jim Radcliffe is clearly a more intelligent person than I am with far more information with which to make a decision and he offered ETH a new contract. I just think it's so obviously disingenuous to keep talking about it being too early to assess whether ETH is coaching United well. I'll pose these questions again, but I'm not hopeful of getting an answer...
How much time is needed before conclusions can be drawn? Or does the timer conveniently reset each season?
I see some progress but not enough and at slow pace. I don't rate him as a top coach or manager.
The only thing I feel close to your level is the irony that Antony is a complete failure at £80M and 24yrs of age, yet Hojlund (according to some) is destined for success and the next best thing at £75M and 21 years of age.
I've seen neither from either to warrant their price tags.
I’m saying ‘good’ because in reality we dominated the ball, didn’t let them create much (xG of 0.4) and should have scored far more. That to me is a good performance. I would also call it a good performance if we won 4-0 or hadn’t scored and it was 0-0 because this is a thread about the coach (and I’m not blaming a coach if his team miss a hatful of basic chances i.e one on ones).
Re time, I agree ETH has had enough time (although I don’t think he has had much say in the new arrivals) but I do think there is context for what we have seen in season 1 and season 2.
Fulham I don’t really think was close, they had a couple of periods where they put some passes together but think of how many saves Leno made that were basic chances to score + the other misses versus what Obama had to do. I don’t think we played scintillating football either, by the by, but it was a good all round team performance where the better team won.
Brighton are always a hard team for us away, I also thought we were ok (hence why I thought it was acceptable performance wise) but there is clear context there for some rotten luck for us and some horrible defending. On that last goal, I also wonder why people blame any of the coaching setup for something so basic, though the subs were odd.
The grading I gave is deliberately minimal in its range because I want to avoid subjectivity, as much as is possible. Good performances are basically when we deserve to win, acceptable are when it’s tight and bad are like 70% of last seasons games.
You're obviously 100% correct. Even though you're an Arsenal fan, you clearly have a much better grasp of our own manager than many of our fans.
United fans have this tendency to get behind a manager or player and put them on a pedestal above the actual club. In some cases it works out great and is part of our rich history of legends like Busby, Ferguson, Charlton, Best, Cantona and such. But the other side of the coin is that a lot of players and managers who don't at all deserve it also get the same special treatment, and will be viewed by many within our fanbase as more important than the club itself. It's a beautiful thing in many ways, but it's also our curse. And in these underperforming years since Sir Alex left, it's mostly been a bloody curse.
So even when it's painfully obvious that a player or manager is detrimental to our success, a lot of our fans will still back them out of some display of misplaced loyalty, even if it means that the club suffers from it. Rashford is the most obvious example right now, but there are countless others to pick from in the last 10 years.
We still have fans who think Ole was a fantastic manager, that Pogba was a superb signing, that De Gea deserved to be the highest paid goalkeeper of footballing history, and that Rashford is a world class winger who is worth 150 million pounds. That says it all. The delusion is miles off the charts.
Luckily a lot of us are also seeing what's plain and obvious. Erik ten Hag is not a bad manager. He has a basic grasp of football that is good. But unlike for example Arteta, Pep, Klopp etc., he massively undervalues the importance of control and possession. And he massively overrates and places blind faith in certain players that would never even start for teams like City, Arsenal or Liverpool. He seems to think that we can press, transition and brute force our way to the top through the likes of Bruno and Rashford, as long as we give it 5-6 years to finally work. Even though Ten Hag surely knows a lot more about football than all of us, he is just flat out wrong about this. And that will probably be his downfall.
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My perspective is this. His first season, Ten Hag overachieved. He got the very best out of everyone and tings, overall clicked very well. I know you can say, why couldn't they do it the second season? Mainly we had a lot of injuries and then the expectation was higher which added a lot more pressure because we overachieved the first season. In the second season, even with the injuries, we still underachieved. That was down to a lot of more average players not being able to play the way Ten Hag wanted. That brought us to Ten Hag's biggest mistake last year - he was stubborn and adamant on playing the style of play he wants. With that, our players simply weren't intelligent or up to scratch on that style. It took Arsenal two full seasons for Arteta to get the best for the way you are playing now and its worked.
In the middle of all this, our club was a crisis behind the scenes. That's due to the club being up for sale. We also had Ronaldo undermining him. We had Sancho undermining him. Whatever about Ronaldo, he is a special player who has lee-way because, well, he's Ronaldo. The only other player in the world who can do such a thing is Messi. They are greatness. The gall of Sancho to think he could think he's more powerful than the manager. Ronaldo gave us special memories, he got to our hearts. Sancho nowhere near it. It's like Henry compared to Bentley.
The last three 4 games (City twice, Fulham and Brighton), United have been solid. They are pressing much better and smarter and they had Brighton under pressure. I don't think there was 4 games in a row last season where you could say United actually played well. Now, Ten Hag did make mistakes with his subs against Brighton. He needs to learn from that. Also, it's match week two, there is no need to panic at all.
The club has back Ten Hag with signings, backroom staff and an extra deal on his contract. He needs at least the full season. If he takes a step backwards, then maybe it's not meant to be. I think it is meant to be, and for him to have big success at United, it is going to be a bittersweet moment.
I think this a bit of a rose tinted view, as has been said we were ripped open too often by Brighton, we beat Fulham by the skin of our teeth, it's last season all over again, anyone who can't see that needs to gie their head a wobble.
I'm not convinced that he will change the tactics (or lack of them) when these new signings are bedded in.
His stubborness in not dropping underperformers, or those that are hit and miss amazes me and others, his subs are beyong explanation, even for seasoned managers and professionals, £700m spent, and the prospects are more of the same.
I didn’t see the game but I’m confused: a few posts above yours, someone is criticizing his unwillingness to play for a draw, yet you’re claiming the opposite. Which is it?
It's interesting cos I actually watched an Ajax home match while he was Manager in 2019. They absolutely dominated the ball... but Ajax are the big fish in a small pond (or at least they were at the time). Beyond the level of opposition, the technical level was very high. de Ligt and Blind were playing CB and literally every member of the team were comfortable on the ball. It seems he quickly figured out that he wouldn’t be able to recreate that at United, so now is implementing tactics he doesn't really believe in and can't thus cant communicate to his players well.
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It's hard to know what goes in his mind and perhaps suddenly it all starts to click but aside from his first season where he set us up very conventionally he seems somewhat lost in terms of his approach to our build up as he keeps trying a very counterintuitive set up even when it's shown it's not ideal with the personnel available, it's gotten somewhat better recently as instead of leaving the midfield open all by itself he instead overcrowds it with almost all of our attacking players but surely it'll revert to the mean when hojlund comes back.
So far it seems the approach gas been a very aggressive press upfront spearheaded by mount whose presence must be a boon in that regard and with our build up only starting and ending in our own defensive third with the rest being an all in offensively to get something done and I could see it working out for some teams but surely we must aspire to a greater amount of control than what this method affords and even if we did not do we even have the right players for it?
now we do have some players suited to a high pressing style, namely hojlund, mount, garnacho and antony but others whom he insists on playing namely rashford who is too lethargic in his outlook and bruno who has the opposite problem and suffers from trying to be in too many places at once throws a wrench in to it all, and the Said players plus casemiro from the midfield all have a tendency to give the ball away easily whether it be through running towards a dead end( rashford) or pinging it back to opposition with a misplaced Hollywood pass ( bruno and cass) which leads to the cycle starting all over again and you can easily see how it's problematic and while it's not necessarily bad to have any of those things if the return justifies it but surely it's not the case here as the results showcase.
And this must be a conscious effort on his part as well as aside from the de jong saga his midfield targets have been mount and currently ugarte and while the latter might be an INEOS pick his similarity to the former makes me belive ten Hag is in agreement and it's absolutely bizarre to put it mildly for an Ajax manager no less to put so littile value in possession based control.
So far it seems the approach gas been a very aggressive press upfront spearheaded by mount whose presence must be a boon in that regard and with our build up only starting and ending in our own defensive third with the rest being an all in offensively to get something done and I could see it working out for some teams but surely we must aspire to a greater amount of control than what this method affords and even if we did not do we even have the right players for it?
now we do have some players suited to a high pressing style, namely hojlund, mount, garnacho and antony but others whom he insists on playing namely rashford who is too lethargic in his outlook and bruno who has the opposite problem and suffers from trying to be in too many places at once throws a wrench in to it all, and the Said players plus casemiro from the midfield all have a tendency to give the ball away easily whether it be through running towards a dead end( rashford) or pinging it back to opposition with a misplaced Hollywood pass ( bruno and cass) which leads to the cycle starting all over again and you can easily see how it's problematic and while it's not necessarily bad to have any of those things if the return justifies it but surely it's not the case here as the results showcase.
And this must be a conscious effort on his part as well as aside from the de jong saga his midfield targets have been mount and currently ugarte and while the latter might be an INEOS pick his similarity to the former makes me belive ten Hag is in agreement and it's absolutely bizarre to put it mildly for an Ajax manager no less to put so littile value in possession based control.
United have been more solid. The FA Cup win was seriously confusing for me. I watched United play without a functioning midfield for pretty much an entire season. The Final made me think, "wait - was it a tactical choice to very often completely vacate the middle of the pitch during games?!?" I'm still not sure.
The FA Cup win was just an anomaly. We have 5 wins in our last 15 games. Losing 6. Bruno in particular played arguably his best game that day.