Ten Hags first real test!
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
Ten Hags first real test!
I can accept the argument that Ten Hag has had more than enough time for him to be deemed sackable, but can we at least all agree that it is far, far, too soon to be judging INEOS (Berrada et al largely only been in post a couple of months and are trying to turn an oil tanker around)
Southampton Palace Twente and Barnsley, what a tough test..
Very tough schedule ….will test his managerial skills to the max
I knew this would happen, people soften as the days pass, every time it's the same outcome
That's why I think Tuchel is ideal. Everyone seems to think he'll only last a couple of years so get him in before the weekend is over and get us moving in the right direction.
Tuchel wont take the job though, he was offered it last summer and turned it down at the last minute because the club wouldnt give him full control of transfers
Yes agree with this. No more scattergun approaches to the next big thing . They will have a proper plan in place and TH was not their choice in the first place, unlike the rest of the management and back room team picked
The thing that sucks is that some posters saw this coming when the year end review was being conducted. That if Ten Hag doesn’t get fired and we have a bad start to the season then management would come under fire for the decision to keep him.
What management does from here is very important, but this situation was completely avoidable if they had just pulled the trigger and fired Ten Hag after the review.
What management does from here is very important, but this situation was completely avoidable if they had just pulled the trigger and fired Ten Hag after the review.
Nagelsmann wouldn't have moved in the summer as Germany had their home Euros to play, so I doubt he'll hold that against us.
I agree them sticking with Ten Hag is due to a lack of viable options, that does seem to be the managerial landscape at the moment. Hopefully next summer comes around with some promising options out there.
The manager as a head coach can still damage us long term if they're coaching the wrong stuff.
I agree that the new structure are going to avoid putting us through that again, which is why they haven't done what so many on this thread want and fired Ten Hag so quickly.
Significant change usually doesn’t happen with half measures. The team hired in to manage football operations seems to be reputable. Excited to see where they are going to take us. You seem to think that in order to exact change you need 2-3 years in the wilderness otherwise it’s not fundamental or lasting, purely due to the fact it took less time.
Sure mate.
Just because INEOS bottled this one doesn’t mean they won’t turn out to be the leadership we needed at the club.
I’ve seen enough to know that ETH will never win the PL with United. At that point, why would you waste time?
I suspect that over the last few days Sir Jim's team have been quietly making enquiries to find out which head coaches are available to us and what terms they want to try to ensure they have a successor decided before any decision is made on Erik's future, tbe problem is the they want a head coach rather than a manager and that will seriously reduce the options available to us as most of the top managers wont take the job if they arnt going to be in full control of the team and transfers.
Tuchel or Nagelsmann. Any other choice would be underwhelming.
There's no vote changing allowed this time though, so it's all new votes. Presumably from less active users who hadn't recently visited the thread.
What is this based on? I don’t think your claim is true, at all.
Sorry, but your post is full of nonsensical speculations and incorrect assumptions.
Thomas Tuchel was offered the job last summer because the club wouldnt give him full control of transfers, Sir Jims team dont want a manager they want a head coach.
It's not the wilderness though, is it?
I literally said I think we're good enough for a tilt at top four this season. Such a season may well end up with Champions League football next season, but we could still have a better season than many others in the past decade and fail to qualify. I also said I think we could be good enough for 2nd/3rd within three seasons, which should have made it obvious that my point was that this season and the next will be steps to progressing to that level, and not further seasons pissing about in 8th.
As I see it, we're good enough for 4th to 6th this season. That's the minimum I expect out of this campaign, and I'd even argue 3rd if Liverpool run out of steam. It's unlikely we're actually in the hunt for top four and still end up lower than 6th. Next season could well go a similar way, but the important thing for me is making further improvements to the squad and further cementing a positive, effective style of play (which is unlikely to look too dissimilar to what we've been attempting under Ten Hag).
The season after is when I expect to see fruit. Comfortable Champions League qualification, possibly even a tilt at the title. If some of the youngsters kick-on this season and we invest well next summer, we could even jump to this stage next season.
If that's the wilderness to you, then as I said, you're as delusional as the Liverpool fans we used to mock. I'm just being realistic about our prospects this campaign, given the squad at our disposal, and regardless of manager.
Well played Ineos.
Running us how you would run any top business.
If you can't put up, then shut up.
Running us how you would run any top business.
If you can't put up, then shut up.
Wasn't part of the tension between Tuchel and Boehly that Tuchel didn't want to have too much control of transfers, and wanted his role to remain very much as head coach, but Boehly wanted Tuchel to have more of an active role in choosing targets?
Nobody knows what happened with Tuchel. Whether he turned us down, whether we turned him down, whether it was just a discussion where we touched base, etc. The fact that his meeting was with Ratcliffe rather than the more hands-on members of the decision marking process (albeit neither Berrada or Ashworth were officially in place yet) makes him turning us down the least likely option IMO.
Also from my understanding Tuchel does not want full control of transfers, and being asked to do that at Chelsea was part of his problem there. What he does want is to be able to tell his club what position and type of player he needs and for the club to then get him a suitable player. Which would probably be exactly what our club also wants in our manager.
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So what if he wins the next 4 then loses the subsequent 5? Everything is alright then? This is just ridiculous. Decisions like this are not made on the basis of 4 or 5 games. They are made on the basis of the previous 120 games he has overseen. There is no data that supports Ten Hag still being the manager of Manchester United.
Me too mate.
That's a fair assessment of what Ineos probably thought over the summer. Yep once you get into the season if things aren't working they have to react at that point the managers in the latter category then become a viable option mid-season.
It was reported by German newspaper BILD that he turned us down because he wouldnt have had control of transfers
Um no. First, I think this is fake news.
If 10Hag doesn’t improve the performances he‘s gone, of that I have no doubt.
I get what you're saying mate you make decent points here and I wouldn't argue with most of it. But I still feel the expectations on the current manager given how heavily the club has now invested in his players should be top 4 minimum. I don't think that's an unreasonable goal for this squad. I'ts certainly not title winning quality but it's better than the Villa team that finished 4th last year.
Going forward if we start being a lot smarter in the market, which it looks like we are moving towards. Then I'd hope outlays of £200-300m every summer will be in the expectation of challenging for the League and CL regardless of who the manager is.
Do you have a source for this? Because if I’m not mistaken, Tuchel at Chelsea didn’t want full control and was actually not happy with being deeply involved in recruitment. And his other past clubs aren’t ran that way either: Bayern, Dortmund, PSG.
I'm not buying this - he was more than happy to not deal with the transfer mess at Chelsea and Dortmund and stick to coaching. The problems started after Roman's management structure got dismantled and Boehly stepped in and started messing about.
I don't see an about turn from INEOS in this matter, they quite clearly believe this is the way to run a football club and we'll find a coach who can accept that.
Bild is only reporting that Marcel Reif (who looking into it seems to be considered one of the worst German commentators) is saying a source close to the Tuchel situation told him that. Hardly seems a high quality source that I'd believe ahead of any of the other different sources that told us one thing or the other.
Now I'm not saying it's not true. But I'd hardly take it as gospel.
Truthfully, I think we'll be able to make the call by the next international break. Realistically, I do think we're plodding on until November/December.
We really should be good enough to get to the Arsenal game at the start of December relatively unscathed. We're obviously not going to win every game, but the toughest games between now and then are Spurs at home, Villa away and Chelsea at home, with Porto and Fenerbache away in the Europa. Even then, I'd argue every game falls into the "eminently winnable" category in isolation, with us being clear favourites in the majority, regardless of where we're playing.
The problem I have with "top 4 minimum" is that City and Arsenal are simply better than us, and it'd take a massive drop off from them as well as a massive improvement from us to overtake them. Liverpool are also better than us, but there remains a glimmer of hope (even after last weekend) that Slot can't keep them going.
We're looking at competing for one, maybe two spots, among a group of five or so clubs who are all of a similar quality to us. As I pointed out to DSG, who marked 75 points as the "safe" total to achieve top four - we've only managed that twice in the post-Fergie era, and that exact points total wasn't actually enough for Arsenal to get top four in 2016/17.
I think the league is simply too competitive now for us to be making such a bold expectation our "minimum". You basically need to reach the midway point of the season with at least some degree of hope you could win the title to have a comfortable top four finish these days, and if you're not good enough to do that (even with the acknowledgement that it'll likely tail off as the season comes to a close), you can't expect fourth as a minimum. We simply aren't that good.
I think it’s split. There’s a large group who want him out and use the last 120~ odd matches as proof of stifled progress and lack of clear coaching quality, and then another group who still back him and think it’s the structure and even more time needed. Then the rest are pretty flipflop on either side – losing faith after a big loss but then they’ll also vote to back him when they hear the alternative isn’t a manager they want.
I will say, I think ten Hag is the most fan backed manager we’ve had in a while. Might be the most.
He's still available now. Let's get it done now and avoid writing off yet another season.
We should take action, the new management showed they can get the best players in the world and the ones we actually wanted. It means they will serve every manager to the top of his potential. ETH might have top potential to take us to PL and CL glory, but it doesn't seems that way. 3/4 of the players he got were lesser then the ones we had, and those we had seem to play lesser under him. Even his home players like Antony are underperforming. You can't blame Yoro's Injury or overall injuries or Rashi, it's the manager job to get a team ready to win any game regardless of external effects as stated above.
I did once a seminar work at the University about SAF man management, while doing it I learned how brilliant SAF was and how he managed to get the maximum out of his players. The rotation he used while being fair 99% of the time to the players, and playing you based on training and tactics wise, in a way that every player felt important to the team success, using psychological tricks to get you out of your comfort zone and unleash the devil (on the pitch) in you. Every player was protected by SAF Infront of the media and world and he took no BS when anyone said things about his players, which led to them being super appreciate to SAF and loyal, he said everything he needed on spot and In real time (during games etc), never kept hard feelings for anyone the next day which led to very comfortable and enjoyable environment. I can see almost none of that in today's team, players are being mishandled and can't get their minds to focus right, also passionate and hard working players aren't appreciated enough in the last year's, in my views, which can leads to overall underperforming by setting standards that are not based on work performance.
I did once a seminar work at the University about SAF man management, while doing it I learned how brilliant SAF was and how he managed to get the maximum out of his players. The rotation he used while being fair 99% of the time to the players, and playing you based on training and tactics wise, in a way that every player felt important to the team success, using psychological tricks to get you out of your comfort zone and unleash the devil (on the pitch) in you. Every player was protected by SAF Infront of the media and world and he took no BS when anyone said things about his players, which led to them being super appreciate to SAF and loyal, he said everything he needed on spot and In real time (during games etc), never kept hard feelings for anyone the next day which led to very comfortable and enjoyable environment. I can see almost none of that in today's team, players are being mishandled and can't get their minds to focus right, also passionate and hard working players aren't appreciated enough in the last year's, in my views, which can leads to overall underperforming by setting standards that are not based on work performance.
Ridiculous posturing. They know they fecked up by keeping Ten Hag.
I think the same, I don't see a change before November.
I live in hope more than expectation these days when it come to games we really should be winning.
I don't disagree for the most part mate. I also think this squad as as good or better than the other teams competing for top 4 bar Arsenal, City and Liverpool. I agree it is very competitive but I still think the club should have top4 as the minimum expectation. We need to be in the CL every year, Ten Hag is in his 3rd year if he finishes 5th-8th this year then he has to go in my book.
He's definitely the most backed manager post SAF. I don't think any other manager got as much financial backing, free reign in picking their own targets and building their own squad. Only LVG got as close, Jose and Ole had to make do with a hodge podge of players they inherited from their predecessors.
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I think he's most backed in both senses -- backed financially and with his own targets; and then backed by fans who have been staunch in defence of him despite the performances just not warranting.
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