Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

Erik ten Hag

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Why would Ineos hire a random manager with a history for playing a different style than the one they're trying to implement though?

I'd been under the impression the Woodward days of just hiring the biggest name available regardless of style were over.

That's why I'm a bit baffled that people think we need wait around ti to find a unicorn manager. One eith the right pedigree of winning trophies and the exact style of play etc.

Thats grest if there is one but If we need a new manager the club will just get the best available that'll that will play the type of football they want to play. That's how it works at most other clubs. We don't need the next Fergie, it's OK if the next manager is only here for a year or two until a better one becomes available.

That's why I think Tuchel is ideal. Everyone seems to think he'll only last a couple of years so get him in before the weekend is over and get us moving in the right direction.
 
That's why I think Tuchel is ideal. Everyone seems to think he'll only last a couple of years so get him in before the weekend is over and get us moving in the right direction.

Tuchel wont take the job though, he was offered it last summer and turned it down at the last minute because the club wouldnt give him full control of transfers
 
It won't be a random manager though. It will be a manager that is suited to how the higher-ups want to play in the long-term, as will every manager going forward. Bearing that in mind, we're left with two possibilities.

1) ETH is suited to that style, in which case replacing him with another manager won't be a drastic difference in style (just the new one will be expected to be more successful at implementing it).
or
2) ETH is not suited to that style, in which case keeping him any longer is a 100% guaranteed complete and utter waste of time, as what he is doing isn't suitable at all for where we want to be.

INEOS/Berrada/Ashworth/Wilcox will know how they want to play going forward. The sooner we start moving towards that goal, the sooner we get there. Alternatively the longer we waste, the longer it's going to take.
Yes agree with this. No more scattergun approaches to the next big thing . They will have a proper plan in place and TH was not their choice in the first place, unlike the rest of the management and back room team picked
 
The thing that sucks is that some posters saw this coming when the year end review was being conducted. That if Ten Hag doesn’t get fired and we have a bad start to the season then management would come under fire for the decision to keep him.

What management does from here is very important, but this situation was completely avoidable if they had just pulled the trigger and fired Ten Hag after the review.
 
If they rate Nagelsmann they should have gone for him this summer. They took their time to back ETH, maybe due to a lack of options rather than a firm belief. We are in trouble if Alonso goes to Real and Nagelsmann is hesitant.

Nagelsmann wouldn't have moved in the summer as Germany had their home Euros to play, so I doubt he'll hold that against us.

I agree them sticking with Ten Hag is due to a lack of viable options, that does seem to be the managerial landscape at the moment. Hopefully next summer comes around with some promising options out there.
 
If we stop acting idiotic with managerial appointments it won't. If manager is just a head coach it won't. That was supposed to be the whole point of the new structure.

The manager as a head coach can still damage us long term if they're coaching the wrong stuff.

I agree that the new structure are going to avoid putting us through that again, which is why they haven't done what so many on this thread want and fired Ten Hag so quickly.
 
This is the sort of deluded nonsense we spent years mocking Liverpool fans for. It doesn't matter what we were doing 10+ years ago. We let things slip too far, and we can no longer hold ourselves to the standards of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, etc. A lot of work needs to be done before we can start thinking in that way, and if we keep trying to hold ourselves to the standards of a team that dominates the league, then we're obviously just setting ourselves up for disappointment, as well as giving any manager we have an impossible task.

I'm not saying we need some grand 5+ year plan, but this season (and probably next) is likely to be a bit rocky. It's been an encouraging summer, but it's also been one largely spent removing deadwood and adding potential to the squad, rather than any immediate strengthening. It took Arsenal about three or four seasons under Arteta, and Liverpool two or three under Klopp. If we consider this summer just gone, with it being the first under INEOS, the starting point, I think it's more than feasible we could be a solid 2nd/3rd at a minimum, from 2026/27. For what it's worth, I think it's highly likely we'll have a new manager leading us into next season, if not the new year.

City, Arsenal and Liverpool have better squads than us (the asterisk on Liverpool being whether Slot can keep Klopp's work ticking over). Villa, Spurs, Chelsea and Newcastle are all vying for Champions League qualification too. The fact is, we could even end up with 75 points (something we've only done twice since Fergie retired) and still miss out on the Champions League places (it happened to Arsenal in 16/17).

Setting the stall out at "anything but top four and 75 points is complete failure" given our actual position, and not where we were 10+ years ago is just setting yourself up for massive disappointment, because it's simply unrealistic.



I think this is where the shift in attitude will be from INEOS, should results not pick up (dramatically) in the next month or two.

It seems we had two sets of managers in the summer - those we would have hired but couldn't agree terms with, and those we could have agreed terms with but weren't interested in hiring at the time.

Assuming we can't tempt any from the former category, we'll look at some from the latter and reevaluate our stance on them. I just hope Southgate isn't among that list.
Significant change usually doesn’t happen with half measures. The team hired in to manage football operations seems to be reputable. Excited to see where they are going to take us. You seem to think that in order to exact change you need 2-3 years in the wilderness otherwise it’s not fundamental or lasting, purely due to the fact it took less time.
 
Let me take you back to reality, INEOS and the new upper management of football have been here for like two seconds. A manager who had a season which stared with managing off the field drama and after which had a unbelievable injury crisis a modern football hasn't seen, regarding one specific part of squad (defence) beging absolutely ravaged. Every single person with a right mind would have thought that it's not normal - something went terribly sideways and we need to reach the deep end first and after which see of the manager of the first team is the right one or we need to reconsider and look elsewhere.
Sure mate.

Just because INEOS bottled this one doesn’t mean they won’t turn out to be the leadership we needed at the club.

I’ve seen enough to know that ETH will never win the PL with United. At that point, why would you waste time?
 
I suspect that over the last few days Sir Jim's team have been quietly making enquiries to find out which head coaches are available to us and what terms they want to try to ensure they have a successor decided before any decision is made on Erik's future, tbe problem is the they want a head coach rather than a manager and that will seriously reduce the options available to us as most of the top managers wont take the job if they arnt going to be in full control of the team and transfers.
 
I knew this would happen, people soften as the days pass, every time it's the same outcome
There's no vote changing allowed this time though, so it's all new votes. Presumably from less active users who hadn't recently visited the thread.
 
I suspect that over the last few days Sir Jim's team have been quietly making enquiries to find out which head coaches are available to us and what terms they want to try to ensure they have a successor decided before any decision is made on Erik's future, tbe problem is the they want a head coach rather than a manager and that will seriously reduce the options available to us as most of the top managers wont take the job if they arnt going to be in full control of the team and transfers.
Sorry, but your post is full of nonsensical speculations and incorrect assumptions.
 
Significant change usually doesn’t happen with half measures. The team hired in to manage football operations seems to be reputable. Excited to see where they are going to take us. You seem to think that in order to exact change you need 2-3 years in the wilderness otherwise it’s not fundamental or lasting, purely due to the fact it took less time.

It's not the wilderness though, is it?

I literally said I think we're good enough for a tilt at top four this season. Such a season may well end up with Champions League football next season, but we could still have a better season than many others in the past decade and fail to qualify. I also said I think we could be good enough for 2nd/3rd within three seasons, which should have made it obvious that my point was that this season and the next will be steps to progressing to that level, and not further seasons pissing about in 8th.

As I see it, we're good enough for 4th to 6th this season. That's the minimum I expect out of this campaign, and I'd even argue 3rd if Liverpool run out of steam. It's unlikely we're actually in the hunt for top four and still end up lower than 6th. Next season could well go a similar way, but the important thing for me is making further improvements to the squad and further cementing a positive, effective style of play (which is unlikely to look too dissimilar to what we've been attempting under Ten Hag).

The season after is when I expect to see fruit. Comfortable Champions League qualification, possibly even a tilt at the title. If some of the youngsters kick-on this season and we invest well next summer, we could even jump to this stage next season.

If that's the wilderness to you, then as I said, you're as delusional as the Liverpool fans we used to mock. I'm just being realistic about our prospects this campaign, given the squad at our disposal, and regardless of manager.
 
Well played Ineos.
Running us how you would run any top business.
If you can't put up, then shut up.
 
Thomas Tuchel was offered the job last summer because the club wouldnt give him full control of transfers, Sir Jims team dont want a manager they want a head coach.

Wasn't part of the tension between Tuchel and Boehly that Tuchel didn't want to have too much control of transfers, and wanted his role to remain very much as head coach, but Boehly wanted Tuchel to have more of an active role in choosing targets?
 
Tuchel wont take the job though, he was offered it last summer and turned it down at the last minute because the club wouldnt give him full control of transfers
Nobody knows what happened with Tuchel. Whether he turned us down, whether we turned him down, whether it was just a discussion where we touched base, etc. The fact that his meeting was with Ratcliffe rather than the more hands-on members of the decision marking process (albeit neither Berrada or Ashworth were officially in place yet) makes him turning us down the least likely option IMO.

Also from my understanding Tuchel does not want full control of transfers, and being asked to do that at Chelsea was part of his problem there. What he does want is to be able to tell his club what position and type of player he needs and for the club to then get him a suitable player. Which would probably be exactly what our club also wants in our manager.
 
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So what if he wins the next 4 then loses the subsequent 5? Everything is alright then? This is just ridiculous. Decisions like this are not made on the basis of 4 or 5 games. They are made on the basis of the previous 120 games he has overseen. There is no data that supports Ten Hag still being the manager of Manchester United.
 
I think this is where the shift in attitude will be from INEOS, should results not pick up (dramatically) in the next month or two.

It seems we had two sets of managers in the summer - those we would have hired but couldn't agree terms with, and those we could have agreed terms with but weren't interested in hiring at the time.

Assuming we can't tempt any from the former category, we'll look at some from the latter and reevaluate our stance on them. I just hope Southgate isn't among that list.

Me too mate.

That's a fair assessment of what Ineos probably thought over the summer. Yep once you get into the season if things aren't working they have to react at that point the managers in the latter category then become a viable option mid-season.
 
Nobody knows what happened with Tuchel. Whether he turned us down, whether we turned him down, whether it was just a discussion where we touched base, etc. The fact that his meeting was with Ratcliffe rather than the more hands-on members of the decision marking process (albeit neither Berrada or Ashworth were officially in place yet) makes him turning us down the least likely option IMO.

Also from my understanding Tuchel does not want full control of transfers, and being asked to do that at Chelsea was part of his problem there. What he does want is to be able to tell his club what position and type of player he needs and for the club to then get him a suitable player. Which would probably be exactly what our club also wants in our manager.

It was reported by German newspaper BILD that he turned us down because he wouldnt have had control of transfers

 
So what if he wins the next 4 then loses the subsequent 5? Everything is alright then? This is just ridiculous. Decisions like this are not made on the basis of 4 or 5 games. They are made on the basis of the previous 120 games he has overseen. There is no data that supports Ten Hag still being the manager of Manchester United.
Um no. First, I think this is fake news.

If 10Hag doesn’t improve the performances he‘s gone, of that I have no doubt.
 
I understand your point, but I'd argue that we simply have to forget pretty much everything prior to this summer.

The project effectively started this summer, and our most expensive signing was an 18 year old centre-back who, for this season at least, is probably going to find himself in rotation once he's back fit, rather than being a guaranteed starter.

There are arguments for basically every pre-INEOS, Ten Hag signing to be on the chopping block:
  • We're seemingly actively still looking to ship out Casemiro and Antony. That's £140 million investment and about £500k a week in wages.
  • Malacia was only ever signed as back-up anyway, and his injury issues have basically rendered him surplus to requirements.
  • Eriksen, Evans and Bayindir were only ever going to be short-term options.
  • Mount at £55 million seems to have no obvious place in the system and his injury record is going to see him forced further down the pecking order.
  • Onana at £45 million has so far been a disaster, and I can't see it changing.
  • Hojlund at £65 million remains a very raw talent and will need to kick on.
  • Martinez at £50 million, although good in his debut season, missed most of the last, and needs to find his form again.
If INEOS have come in and are just taking a superficial look at the transfer fees paid and wages agreed, before they took post, to determine our expectations for the season, rather than the actual quality available in the squad, then they're idiots.

I get what you're saying mate you make decent points here and I wouldn't argue with most of it. But I still feel the expectations on the current manager given how heavily the club has now invested in his players should be top 4 minimum. I don't think that's an unreasonable goal for this squad. I'ts certainly not title winning quality but it's better than the Villa team that finished 4th last year.

Going forward if we start being a lot smarter in the market, which it looks like we are moving towards. Then I'd hope outlays of £200-300m every summer will be in the expectation of challenging for the League and CL regardless of who the manager is.
 
Thomas Tuchel was offered the job last summer because the club wouldnt give him full control of transfers, Sir Jims team dont want a manager they want a head coach.

Do you have a source for this? Because if I’m not mistaken, Tuchel at Chelsea didn’t want full control and was actually not happy with being deeply involved in recruitment. And his other past clubs aren’t ran that way either: Bayern, Dortmund, PSG.
 
It was reported by German newspaper BILD that he turned us down because he wouldnt have had control of transfers



I'm not buying this - he was more than happy to not deal with the transfer mess at Chelsea and Dortmund and stick to coaching. The problems started after Roman's management structure got dismantled and Boehly stepped in and started messing about.

I don't see an about turn from INEOS in this matter, they quite clearly believe this is the way to run a football club and we'll find a coach who can accept that.
 
It was reported by German newspaper BILD that he turned us down because he wouldnt have had control of transfers


Bild is only reporting that Marcel Reif (who looking into it seems to be considered one of the worst German commentators) is saying a source close to the Tuchel situation told him that. Hardly seems a high quality source that I'd believe ahead of any of the other different sources that told us one thing or the other.

Now I'm not saying it's not true. But I'd hardly take it as gospel.
 
Me too mate.

That's a fair assessment of what Ineos probably thought over the summer. Yep once you get into the season if things aren't working they have to react at that point the managers in the latter category then become a viable option mid-season.

Truthfully, I think we'll be able to make the call by the next international break. Realistically, I do think we're plodding on until November/December.

We really should be good enough to get to the Arsenal game at the start of December relatively unscathed. We're obviously not going to win every game, but the toughest games between now and then are Spurs at home, Villa away and Chelsea at home, with Porto and Fenerbache away in the Europa. Even then, I'd argue every game falls into the "eminently winnable" category in isolation, with us being clear favourites in the majority, regardless of where we're playing.

I get what you're saying mate you make decent points here and I wouldn't argue with most of it. But I still feel the expectations on the current manager given how heavily the club has now invested in his players should be top 4 minimum. I don't think that's an unreasonable goal for this squad. I'ts certainly not title winning quality but it's better than the Villa team that finished 4th last year.

Going forward if we start being a lot smarter in the market, which it looks like we are moving towards. Then I'd hope outlays of £200-300m every summer will be in the expectation of challenging for the League and CL regardless of who the manager is.

The problem I have with "top 4 minimum" is that City and Arsenal are simply better than us, and it'd take a massive drop off from them as well as a massive improvement from us to overtake them. Liverpool are also better than us, but there remains a glimmer of hope (even after last weekend) that Slot can't keep them going.

We're looking at competing for one, maybe two spots, among a group of five or so clubs who are all of a similar quality to us. As I pointed out to DSG, who marked 75 points as the "safe" total to achieve top four - we've only managed that twice in the post-Fergie era, and that exact points total wasn't actually enough for Arsenal to get top four in 2016/17.

I think the league is simply too competitive now for us to be making such a bold expectation our "minimum". You basically need to reach the midway point of the season with at least some degree of hope you could win the title to have a comfortable top four finish these days, and if you're not good enough to do that (even with the acknowledgement that it'll likely tail off as the season comes to a close), you can't expect fourth as a minimum. We simply aren't that good.
 
Is the Red Cafe's view of Ten Hag ("he's got to go") widely supported by United fans? I don't know other Utd fan sites. I ask because I read in daily newspapers that Ten Hag has the wide support and loyalty of United fans. From what I read here, this is far from the truth. Or are we here a sort of one off bunch of malcontents? It's a genuine question.
I think it’s split. There’s a large group who want him out and use the last 120~ odd matches as proof of stifled progress and lack of clear coaching quality, and then another group who still back him and think it’s the structure and even more time needed. Then the rest are pretty flipflop on either side – losing faith after a big loss but then they’ll also vote to back him when they hear the alternative isn’t a manager they want.

I will say, I think ten Hag is the most fan backed manager we’ve had in a while. Might be the most.
 
It was obvious Tuchel turned us down and that's the only reason we're still stuck with ETH. Just difficult to know if it was money or control that scuppered negotiations.

Some people had a hard time accepting it.
He's still available now. Let's get it done now and avoid writing off yet another season.
 
We should take action, the new management showed they can get the best players in the world and the ones we actually wanted. It means they will serve every manager to the top of his potential. ETH might have top potential to take us to PL and CL glory, but it doesn't seems that way. 3/4 of the players he got were lesser then the ones we had, and those we had seem to play lesser under him. Even his home players like Antony are underperforming. You can't blame Yoro's Injury or overall injuries or Rashi, it's the manager job to get a team ready to win any game regardless of external effects as stated above.
I did once a seminar work at the University about SAF man management, while doing it I learned how brilliant SAF was and how he managed to get the maximum out of his players. The rotation he used while being fair 99% of the time to the players, and playing you based on training and tactics wise, in a way that every player felt important to the team success, using psychological tricks to get you out of your comfort zone and unleash the devil (on the pitch) in you. Every player was protected by SAF Infront of the media and world and he took no BS when anyone said things about his players, which led to them being super appreciate to SAF and loyal, he said everything he needed on spot and In real time (during games etc), never kept hard feelings for anyone the next day which led to very comfortable and enjoyable environment. I can see almost none of that in today's team, players are being mishandled and can't get their minds to focus right, also passionate and hard working players aren't appreciated enough in the last year's, in my views, which can leads to overall underperforming by setting standards that are not based on work performance.
 
Truthfully, I think we'll be able to make the call by the next international break. Realistically, I do think we're plodding on until November/December.

I think the same, I don't see a change before November.

We really should be good enough to get to the Arsenal game at the start of December relatively unscathed. We're obviously not going to win every game, but the toughest games between now and then are Spurs at home, Villa away and Chelsea at home, with Porto and Fenerbache away in the Europa. Even then, I'd argue every game falls into the "eminently winnable" category in isolation, with us being clear favourites in the majority, regardless of where we're playing.

I live in hope more than expectation these days when it come to games we really should be winning.

The problem I have with "top 4 minimum" is that City and Arsenal are simply better than us, and it'd take a massive drop off from them as well as a massive improvement from us to overtake them. Liverpool are also better than us, but there remains a glimmer of hope (even after last weekend) that Slot can't keep them going.

We're looking at competing for one, maybe two spots, among a group of five or so clubs who are all of a similar quality to us. As I pointed out to DSG, who marked 75 points as the "safe" total to achieve top four - we've only managed that twice in the post-Fergie era, and that exact points total wasn't actually enough for Arsenal to get top four in 2016/17.

I think the league is simply too competitive now for us to be making such a bold expectation our "minimum". You basically need to reach the midway point of the season with at least some degree of hope you could win the title to have a comfortable top four finish these days, and if you're not good enough to do that (even with the acknowledgement that it'll likely tail off as the season comes to a close), you can't expect fourth as a minimum. We simply aren't that good.

I don't disagree for the most part mate. I also think this squad as as good or better than the other teams competing for top 4 bar Arsenal, City and Liverpool. I agree it is very competitive but I still think the club should have top4 as the minimum expectation. We need to be in the CL every year, Ten Hag is in his 3rd year if he finishes 5th-8th this year then he has to go in my book.
 
I think it’s split. There’s a large group who want him out and use the last 120~ odd matches as proof of stifled progress and lack of clear coaching quality, and then another group who still back him and think it’s the structure and even more time needed. Then the rest are pretty flipflop on either side – losing faith after a big loss but then they’ll also vote to back him when they hear the alternative isn’t a manager they want.

I will say, I think ten Hag is the most fan backed manager we’ve had in a while. Might be the most.

He's definitely the most backed manager post SAF. I don't think any other manager got as much financial backing, free reign in picking their own targets and building their own squad. Only LVG got as close, Jose and Ole had to make do with a hodge podge of players they inherited from their predecessors.
 
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He's definitely the most back manager post SAF. I don't think any other manager got as much financial backing, free reign in picking their own targets and building their own squad. Only LVG got as close, Jose and Ole had to make do with a hodge podge of players they inherited from their successors.
I think he's most backed in both senses -- backed financially and with his own targets; and then backed by fans who have been staunch in defence of him despite the performances just not warranting.
 
Yeah Ratcliffe should be going back cap in hand to him and getting the deal done.
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Tuchel wanting control over transfers is a big NO for me. He's a good manager and tactician but we cannot have managers overruling multiple directors. Simple.

It seems like Tuchel has PTSD from his PSG & Bayern spells.
 
I'm not buying this - he was more than happy to not deal with the transfer mess at Chelsea and Dortmund and stick to coaching. The problems started after Roman's management structure got dismantled and Boehly stepped in and started messing about.

I don't see an about turn from INEOS in this matter, they quite clearly believe this is the way to run a football club and we'll find a coach who can accept that.
I agree. It was reported that Tuchel started sending his agent to Boehy's recruitment meetings too iirc
 
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