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- Nov 1, 2021
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3 games into the season and people already getting upset that INEOS haven't sacked Ten Hag after...3 games.
It's actually 117 games of his tenure, but whatever.
3 games into the season and people already getting upset that INEOS haven't sacked Ten Hag after...3 games.
I could see a ruling from up top that Bruno (that was extended) is the playmaker, we're not buying a DLP and we have some broad profiles for positions going forward, and likewise for manager (no Bielsa to take the most obvious example coming to mind).It's HR speak, for "Don't you worry, we are actually doing things. We swear."
In fairness before the cup final the majority were in favour of sacking, one game shouldn't make a differenceThe poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.
3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.
Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.
The poll was was also highly swung towards sack before he won that one game that made goldfish (coincidently influenced by clowns like Goldbridge) brained fans lose their collective minds.The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.
3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.
Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.
I could see a ruling from up top that Bruno (that was extended) is the playmaker, we're not buying a DLP and we have some broad profiles for positions going forward, and likewise for manager (no Bielsa to take the most obvious example coming to mind).
That's not to cheapen football tactics to simpleton level, I know it is pretty intricate (11 players to instruct + whatever scenario you face with the 11 oppo ones) but the broad pillars are not that complex. If the manager would like the fullback to tuck in sometimes I really don't think the board is going to rule "NO, the game plan™ says only overlapping !"
you've probably missed a few on the bingo card. They've branched out from 'Martinez is injured'.Pick your poison:
- 3 games
- No qualified replacement
- We've improved
- Unlucky losses
- Referee positioning vs Liverpool
- Individual mistakes
- Superior xG
- Ugarte not available
- Arteta struggled too
An obtuse post. There are facets of our press that is more synchronised and we no longer keep as big a vertical gap between players as we did last season. You might not see major changes straight off the back 3 games in with a new game model and a new coaching staff. Sorry to disappoint you on this, but it doesn't make it any less true.No, I want you to explain to me this model, you have watched preseason games and four official games, so I would appreciate if you can tell me how the current game model differs from what ETH has done for the better part of two years.
Otherwise, I don't know how you can use it as an argument because it's not an official position held by the club and it's also not a visible reality. It's just something that a paper wrote and that paper shows its own skepticism by labeling it as "the so-called game mode".
The reality is that nothing has changed, there is no new game model even the one specific thing mentioned in that article, the pressing scheme that routinely exposes our midfield hasn't changed.
An obtuse post. There are facets of our press that is more synchronised and we no longer keep as big a vertical gap between players as we did last season. You might not see major changes straight off the back 3 games in with a new game model and a new coaching staff. Sorry to disappoint you on this, but it doesn't make it any less true.
If you want to assume that the evident brief on the remit of new appointment is nothing but paper, you go for it.
I've been trying to think of a bigger fraud than this guy and I keep coming up short. Like, you obviously have many cases of managers failing to make the step up and quickly disappearing, or just straight up worse and mediocre managers out there but no one really expects anything of them. Take, I don't know, Frank de Boer, or Nuno Espirito Santo, for example, off the top of my head. Pochettino's myth lasted for a while, but he never really stuck around in one place for long because he inevitably got sacked, for better or worse. Potter practically vanished as well, although he is still getting paid by Chelsea. And you also have Southgate. But did anyone really like or believe in Southgate outside of any patriotic feelings one might have?
But I don't think I have seen a guy defraud so many people into thinking that he is this great mastermind, this impeccable tactician, that has The Plan™, and if you just give him enough money and enough time he will suddenly turn into Guardiola, despite so clearly not being different than those guys above and will eventually end the same way. Much closer to Nuno than anywhere close to Pep. And it's not just random people, but journalists, and apparently INEOS as well? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Or just not wanting to admit one is wrong? Indecision? Blind loyalty? It doesn't sound any different to a VC scam to me. One of those that you wonder how people fell for it in the first place, even smart people. But that can at least be explained with greed. Is his just a case of the right place at the right time?
My friends that support other clubs barely even banter anymore, they just keep asking me how he still has the job. Imagine if I start explaining how he is actually great and will have United challenging soon. I’d sound like a lunatic. Exactly like the people that invest into those VC scams and remain utterly convinced they are about to be millionaires if they believe hard enough and hold on, despite the entire thing being a complete and obvious scam to everyone else.
Same thing here. This manager is so obviously and clearly not good and no amount of support will change that. This team isn’t going to be utterly shit for three years and then suddenly become world class on the fourth, or fifth, or whatever year. His football has been exposed time and again. And what happens when 1-2 players get injured? Just fall apart completely again? He is all out of pathetic excuses. So, what’s the point of wasting any more resources? There’s the matter of replacement, but if INEOS are so professional and have a style in mind, then surely there’s someone out there that can do much better with this squad? Because unlike 2 years ago, I think the squad is quite good now. Not brilliant, certainly, but should be enough to challenge Top 4 comfortably. I'm certain a proper manager can do that, and could also use to prepare for next season better. So, just sack now and move on.
I mean really, insofar United has an existing play identity it's pretty much that.So no new game model but a confirmation of the old one?
So there are some differences already seen to last season, but you appear frustrated the changes aren't wholesale and that you don't see it after 3 games despite there being a new coaching staff.The evident brief could also be a PR move to lessen pressure on the club and ETH? And the reality is that you are unable to describe a new game model, the best that you have done is describe the same game model with maybe some tweaks which I personally don't see but that's beside the point. We don't have a new game model, we are using the model that ETH has used since 2022, we are a quick transition team that uses a mid block.
Here's a food for thought.
Ten Hag has ''his'' players and he was backed. The club did the right thing.
If he were to be sacked. Can the new manager get more out of those players. We have the same problem again - a new manager who inherited a squad composed of the previous 4 managers. I know people mention Slot has things right but remember he inherited a solid team and hasn't had a problem yet.
The new manager next summer would want 4 or 5 of his players.
Do you get where I'm coming from? This isn't intended as a post to defend Ten Hag. It's just a question. Then what if next manager doesn't work out?
Are we better having a bad few more months with Ten Hag trying to get it right? Or take the risk of repeating the same mistakes.
The club I am certain will give him time, but they are going to want to see their investment paid off.
So there are some differences already seen to last season, but you appear frustrated the changes aren't wholesale and that you don't see it after 3 games despite there being a new coaching staff.
I think the plan is to show more signs of dominating the ball more and not being a impatient in the attacking buildup. That shows in some passages and it doesn't in others. And our offence I think now has a huge influence from RvN, who took over our offensive automation training in preseason. So you'd expect a different approach in this department too.
However, it's not necessarily going to be seen immediately.
Yes, you've made that clear.I don't think that there is any tactical differences and I don't think that there is any new model.
The FA cup swayed some fickle fans! This is not about 3 games but coming from a horrible season! It is very obvious this wont end well!!The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.
3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.
Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.
Now thats ugarte missing you've probably missed a few on the bingo card. They've branched out from 'Martinez is injured'.
I believe we were last season as well but it just yields no reward in terms of goals and sometimes even in chances. There's something fundamentally wrong about the lack of threat we pose when we actually do win the ball high up the pitch. The players should not be this bad, even if none of them are 'elite' level forwards.Regarding our pressing I think that context is important. Our players have absolutely been inclined to press and for that reason we have been one of the team that creates the most turnovers in the league but the way we do it is reckless, it's a bit like a heavyweight that only throws haymakers, he is likely to have a high KO rate but he is also likely to get himself rocked by any decent boxer.
Add a new one. “New Game Model”Pick your poison:
- 3 games
- No qualified replacement
- We've improved
- Unlucky losses
- Referee positioning vs Liverpool
- Individual mistakes
- Superior xG
- Ugarte not available
- Arteta struggled too
I get that. It's what Liverpool have so far been good at. In fairness to them, it looks like (early days) they can function without Klopp. Time will be a test of that when problems occur - players wanting to leave, signings Slot may want, contracts etc...Yes, obviously. Without shadow of a doubt. Because it's impossible to get less out of them than Ten Hag is doing.
The whole point of having Wilcox and Ashworth there is so we sign players to build a squad that exists independently of the head coach. That sad transparent excuse people used to hide behind to advocate keeping failed managers on is consigned to history.
Sancho and now Antony haven't worked out in our quest to sign a top Right Winger. But we'll try again with another player, and another after that if needed. It's just how things work in football. No one can guarantee the next manager will be a success but if the club feel the current manager isn't working out then they have to replace him.
And I imagine post ETH manager will probably have much less say in new signings and they'll have to work with the current squad plus club signings identified by Ashworth etc.
I'd totally agree, I want ETH out!If the style isn't working in English football, and results of said style is the club and it's brand being dragged through the mud, why would you persist? It's not like we have Arene Wenger when he was delivering CL football every season. It's unambitious, but in that case I kind of understand why Arsenal stook with him for his style. It was delivering some level of results.
ETH isn't even on that level.
Apparently very daft.No. 2 seasons + 3 games. 3 games showing a continuation of the same old rubbish.
How daft must a person have to be to ignore the evidence of 2 whole seasons and give him a clean slate, in some misguided blind hope that he'll magically transform into a good manager.
Just wait until Martínez is back, then you'll see...Pick your poison:
- 3 games
- No qualified replacement
- We've improved
- Unlucky losses
- Referee positioning vs Liverpool
- Individual mistakes
- Superior xG
- Ugarte not available
- Arteta struggled too
Of course my brief summary of why various candidates would be better than Ten Hag isn’t enough for you - I could write paragraphs and paragraphs and you’d still find objections to each one. But that’s because your focus is a negative, fear-based case against hypothetical replacements, rather than a positive case for keeping Ten Hag.
Thankfully that’s completely irrelevant to the deep dive the Ineos team will have been doing on replacements since May. As I predicted many pages ago, you’re only asking for names so you can pick holes in any and every alternative because you’d rather stick with the failure that Ten Hag has proved to be. Fair enough, but focussing on possible future failings of hypothetical replacements over the actual, current failings of the guy who’s currently overseeing relegation form is bizarre. Actual failures are more damaging to our club that hypothetical failures. And that’s where we seem to differ.
You could find some similarity between every single candidate and every single failed ex Utd manager since Fergie, but I can more easily counter with the fact that Ten Hag has already lead us to a worse PL and CL performance than any of them. So again, that seems to me to be a fundamentally flawed argument in favour of keeping him. You could use that exact same justification to never ever change the manager, which is obviously an absurdity.
It’s been pointed out to you again and again that there is no formula or criteria that will determine success for new appointment. Failure is more likely than not for any of them, because success for Ud means the PL and CL, and that’s an incredibly hard level to get to. Someone can have an impeccable record and experience and CV and still fail. Someone could have a much more limited CV and succeed. Whoever is ultimately chosen, there will be enough potential positives about their candidacy to make them more attractive than keeping someone who we know for a fact is not cutting it.
As for attainability, it’s easy to propose hypothetical obstacles for every single possible candidate on the planet, but that’s just not a sound basis for concluding that not a single one is attainable. We don’t even know if any of the names suggested are on their list, and you have no more insight on them being unattainable than I do on them being attainable. Unless you’ve been reaching out to their agents to check, it’s nothing but baseless speculation on either side. And that is also not a sound argument for not replacing a failing manager.
When you look at the bigger picture, it’s hard to imagine that Ineos wouldn’t be able to lure a replacement, no matter what time of season it is. Big clubs finding new managers mid season is a perfectly normal and routine thing that happens in football and there’s no reason to think doing so will be peculiarly elusive only for Utd. That’s just something you seem to have pulled from thin air because you’d rather see Ten Hag sink another season first, at which point you seem to think all your hypothetical objections to possible replacements will magically disappear.
Perhaps he was baptised between seasons, hallelujah, Wash away your sins.. convenient.No. 2 seasons + 3 games. 3 games showing a continuation of the same old rubbish.
How daft must a person have to be to ignore the evidence of 2 whole seasons and give him a clean slate, in some misguided blind hope that he'll magically transform into a good manager.
Exactly, that's why it's the wrong tactic in the current circumstances. Under Ole our setup made sense, we didn't even play more counter attacking game than we did under ETH against top clubs, but we did play more conservative football against most opponents. Now the funny thing is we played out best football (and by quite some distance) when we played also a bit more conservative (Casemiro and Fred midfield).Well I'll say this, Ten Hag's focus on the team pressing high is not reaping many rewards in terms of goals and as we've seen so far is detrimental to our defending.
Exactly, that's why it's the wrong tactic in the current circumstances. Under Ole our setup made sense, we didn't even play more counter attacking game than we did under ETH against top clubs, but we did play more conservative football against most opponents. Now the funny thing is we played out best football (and by quite some distance) when we played also a bit more conservative (Casemiro and Fred midfield).
I don’t even think we were conservative under Ole, we just weren’t some high pressing super system and the defending felt a bit off the cuff. But it’s not like we sat in like Jose days and were trying to protect 1-0 leads all day.Exactly, that's why it's the wrong tactic in the current circumstances. Under Ole our setup made sense, we didn't even play more counter attacking game than we did under ETH against top clubs, but we did play more conservative football against most opponents. Now the funny thing is we played out best football (and by quite some distance) when we played also a bit more conservative (Casemiro and Fred midfield).
Not really we press, the structure of our pressing makes no sense but it is executed.
It's actually 117 games of his tenure, but whatever.
I can't take it anymore Suvvie!He got to go blud