Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[Plastic Evra]

It's HR speak, for "Don't you worry, we are actually doing things. We swear."

I could see a ruling from up top that Bruno (that was extended) is the playmaker, we're not buying a DLP and we have some broad profiles for positions going forward, and likewise for manager (no Bielsa to take the most obvious example coming to mind).

That's not to cheapen football tactics to simpleton level, I know it is pretty intricate (11 players to instruct + whatever scenario you face with the 11 oppo ones) but the broad pillars are not that complex. If the manager would like the fullback to tuck in sometimes I really don't think the board is going to rule "NO, the game plan™ says only overlapping !"

 

[Zed 101]

The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.

3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.

Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.

In fairness before the cup final the majority were in favour of sacking, one game shouldn't make a difference

 

[Leftback99]

The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.

3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.

Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.

The poll was was also highly swung towards sack before he won that one game that made goldfish (coincidently influenced by clowns like Goldbridge) brained fans lose their collective minds.

It's not 3 games it well over 100 to give us a fair idea if whether this is 'going towards something good or not'.

 

[Zed 101]

How many of our players would walk into the Fulham, Brighton or even Liverpool 1st 11s? How many into Southampton I would say that other than Liverpool there would be majorly Utd players, and even Liverpool would be a fair few.... And yet we struggle and will struggle against Southampton even if we win

 

[JPRouve]

I could see a ruling from up top that Bruno (that was extended) is the playmaker, we're not buying a DLP and we have some broad profiles for positions going forward, and likewise for manager (no Bielsa to take the most obvious example coming to mind).

That's not to cheapen football tactics to simpleton level, I know it is pretty intricate (11 players to instruct + whatever scenario you face with the 11 oppo ones) but the broad pillars are not that complex. If the manager would like the fullback to tuck in sometimes I really don't think the board is going to rule "NO, the game plan™ says only overlapping !"

So no new game model but a confirmation of the old one? That reads like a PR move, creating a new product out of an old one, like NVidia does every other year.

 

[Leftback99]

Pick your poison:

- 3 games
- No qualified replacement
- We've improved
- Unlucky losses
- Referee positioning vs Liverpool
- Individual mistakes
- Superior xG
- Ugarte not available
- Arteta struggled too

you've probably missed a few on the bingo card. They've branched out from 'Martinez is injured'.

 

[VP89]

No, I want you to explain to me this model, you have watched preseason games and four official games, so I would appreciate if you can tell me how the current game model differs from what ETH has done for the better part of two years.

Otherwise, I don't know how you can use it as an argument because it's not an official position held by the club and it's also not a visible reality. It's just something that a paper wrote and that paper shows its own skepticism by labeling it as "the so-called game mode".

The reality is that nothing has changed, there is no new game model even the one specific thing mentioned in that article, the pressing scheme that routinely exposes our midfield hasn't changed.

An obtuse post. There are facets of our press that is more synchronised and we no longer keep as big a vertical gap between players as we did last season. You might not see major changes straight off the back 3 games in with a new game model and a new coaching staff. Sorry to disappoint you on this, but it doesn't make it any less true.

If you want to assume that the evident brief on the remit of new appointment is nothing but paper, you go for it.

The line of "official communication" from the club is also quite naive. They don't list out the entire job spec but the clear briefing and clubs own words of taking over all technical areas of football is quite clear.

 

[JPRouve]

An obtuse post. There are facets of our press that is more synchronised and we no longer keep as big a vertical gap between players as we did last season. You might not see major changes straight off the back 3 games in with a new game model and a new coaching staff. Sorry to disappoint you on this, but it doesn't make it any less true.

If you want to assume that the evident brief on the remit of new appointment is nothing but paper, you go for it.

The evident brief could also be a PR move to lessen pressure on the club and ETH? And the reality is that you are unable to describe a new game model, the best that you have done is describe the same game model with maybe some tweaks which I personally don't see but that's beside the point. We don't have a new game model, we are using the model that ETH has used since 2022, we are a quick transition team that uses a mid block.

 

[Leftback99]

"Game model" is worse than LVGs "philosophy".

Nonsense trying to make football sound more complicated than it is.

 

[tjb]

I've been trying to think of a bigger fraud than this guy and I keep coming up short. Like, you obviously have many cases of managers failing to make the step up and quickly disappearing, or just straight up worse and mediocre managers out there but no one really expects anything of them. Take, I don't know, Frank de Boer, or Nuno Espirito Santo, for example, off the top of my head. Pochettino's myth lasted for a while, but he never really stuck around in one place for long because he inevitably got sacked, for better or worse. Potter practically vanished as well, although he is still getting paid by Chelsea. And you also have Southgate. But did anyone really like or believe in Southgate outside of any patriotic feelings one might have?

But I don't think I have seen a guy defraud so many people into thinking that he is this great mastermind, this impeccable tactician, that has The Plan™, and if you just give him enough money and enough time he will suddenly turn into Guardiola, despite so clearly not being different than those guys above and will eventually end the same way. Much closer to Nuno than anywhere close to Pep. And it's not just random people, but journalists, and apparently INEOS as well? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Or just not wanting to admit one is wrong? Indecision? Blind loyalty? It doesn't sound any different to a VC scam to me. One of those that you wonder how people fell for it in the first place, even smart people. But that can at least be explained with greed. Is his just a case of the right place at the right time?

My friends that support other clubs barely even banter anymore, they just keep asking me how he still has the job. Imagine if I start explaining how he is actually great and will have United challenging soon. I’d sound like a lunatic. Exactly like the people that invest into those VC scams and remain utterly convinced they are about to be millionaires if they believe hard enough and hold on, despite the entire thing being a complete and obvious scam to everyone else.

Same thing here. This manager is so obviously and clearly not good and no amount of support will change that. This team isn’t going to be utterly shit for three years and then suddenly become world class on the fourth, or fifth, or whatever year. His football has been exposed time and again. And what happens when 1-2 players get injured? Just fall apart completely again? He is all out of pathetic excuses. So, what’s the point of wasting any more resources? There’s the matter of replacement, but if INEOS are so professional and have a style in mind, then surely there’s someone out there that can do much better with this squad? Because unlike 2 years ago, I think the squad is quite good now. Not brilliant, certainly, but should be enough to challenge Top 4 comfortably. I'm certain a proper manager can do that, and could also use to prepare for next season better. So, just sack now and move on.

He just happened to find the right club. Its a club which generally supports and believes in the manager without the manager having earn respect whilst at the club. United hate sacking managers and our fans, representatives and ex-players almost view it as immoral. For so many years during Fergie's reign, he and other representatives of the club consistently subscribed to time and patience being the hallmark of managerial success. I personally think Fergie used that mantra as a show of support to other British managers at the time who were being relieved of their duties in short order. Unfortunately, the statements were so constant that its almost been ingrained the club's dna. That high moral standard and deference to managers can even be classified as part of our identity.

The problem we've had has been twofold. The obvious first problem is that in the past, the people tasked with hiring our managers were people with very little knowledge on football, so they hired popular managers without having the proper mechanisms in place to assess and check that manager. The second problem is that once the person is hired, it takes us so long to sack the manager since in the past a lot of decisions on hard issues like this were determined by strong public opinions from the fanbase; a fanbase notorious for showing managerial support during games and being consistently deferential to the manager. Hiring a manager who doesn't meet expectations is commonplace, however the true problem is how much time it takes for us to correct that mistake. Each manager is treated like a messiah before even their first game and players and other individual are consistently blamed for poor performances and issues in their start. Its only by the end of the first season or the beginning of the second that slight discontent starts being heard regardless of how bad and inconsistent performances are.

Ten Hag has the added feature of being dutch and playing seemingly attractive football in a much smaller league in which his team were significantly better than the majority of the league. The dutch element with the usual dutch verbiage makes our fans think he is a more knowledgable tactician than he actually is. It's take people 2.5 years to notice that he's a horrible in-game tactician, simply from the benefit of being dutch. The second thing is that our fans underestimate the premier league. They underestimate the fact that the tempo and power the league requires is at the very highest level. Its general knowledge that this can affect the success of players, but because we had such a successful manager in Sir Alex for so long, hardly sack managers and never really had the challenge of employing a manager from a foreign league ( with the exception of LVG who faced similar problems), our fanbase hasn't yet caught up to the fact that these high standards affect managers too. Its a hard learning curve extended by the fact that we had incompetent people running the club. We are lucky as a club that we haven't suffered as much reputationally and financially as a result of this drawn out lesson. It took us almost 8 of those years to figure out that we needed a director of football, and we've just now discovered how many executive pieces may be required to have a truly functioning structure. We had so much success, that we are now learning what it takes to sustain success in the modern game.

 

[Plastic Evra]

So no new game model but a confirmation of the old one?

I mean really, insofar United has an existing play identity it's pretty much that.

Reportedly the club was after Olise, our name appeared for a couple of other wingers.

Bruno has been extended so he's in The Plan. Zirkzee an intriguing addition though.
The midfield mix is the least defined besides the fact we're playing with Bruno at AM in the default configuration.

Playing a higher line has been the elusive sea dragon chased for seasons now. Plus something about being more in control and progressive though retain some directness and verticality.

There's probably some more variables upper management could have a road sheet for. They only went for young pre-peak players this summer. Maybe deciding they want the player to be all above a physicality/technical threshold, etc...

 

[Garnacho Libre]

Here's a food for thought.

Ten Hag has ''his'' players and he was backed. The club did the right thing.

If he were to be sacked. Can the new manager get more out of those players. We have the same problem again - a new manager who inherited a squad composed of the previous 4 managers. I know people mention Slot has things right but remember he inherited a solid team and hasn't had a problem yet.

The new manager next summer would want 4 or 5 of his players.

Do you get where I'm coming from? This isn't intended as a post to defend Ten Hag. It's just a question. Then what if next manager doesn't work out?

Are we better having a bad few more months with Ten Hag trying to get it right? Or take the risk of repeating the same mistakes.

The club I am certain will give him time, but they are going to want to see their investment paid off.

 

[VP89]

The evident brief could also be a PR move to lessen pressure on the club and ETH? And the reality is that you are unable to describe a new game model, the best that you have done is describe the same game model with maybe some tweaks which I personally don't see but that's beside the point. We don't have a new game model, we are using the model that ETH has used since 2022, we are a quick transition team that uses a mid block.

So there are some differences already seen to last season, but you appear frustrated the changes aren't wholesale and that you don't see it after 3 games despite there being a new coaching staff.

I think the plan is to show more signs of dominating the ball more and not being a impatient in the attacking buildup. That shows in some passages and it doesn't in others. And our offence I think now has a huge influence from RvN, who took over our offensive automation training in preseason. So you'd expect a different approach in this department too.

However, it's not necessarily going to be seen immediately.

 

[stevoc]

Here's a food for thought.

Ten Hag has ''his'' players and he was backed. The club did the right thing.

If he were to be sacked. Can the new manager get more out of those players. We have the same problem again - a new manager who inherited a squad composed of the previous 4 managers. I know people mention Slot has things right but remember he inherited a solid team and hasn't had a problem yet.

The new manager next summer would want 4 or 5 of his players.

Do you get where I'm coming from? This isn't intended as a post to defend Ten Hag. It's just a question. Then what if next manager doesn't work out?

Are we better having a bad few more months with Ten Hag trying to get it right? Or take the risk of repeating the same mistakes.

The club I am certain will give him time, but they are going to want to see their investment paid off.

Sancho and now Antony haven't worked out in our quest to sign a top Right Winger. But we'll try again with another player, and another after that if needed. It's just how things work in football. No one can guarantee the next manager will be a success but if the club feel the current manager isn't working out then they have to replace him.

And I imagine post ETH manager will probably have much less say in new signings and they'll have to work with the current squad plus club signings identified by Ashworth etc.

 

[JPRouve]

So there are some differences already seen to last season, but you appear frustrated the changes aren't wholesale and that you don't see it after 3 games despite there being a new coaching staff.

I think the plan is to show more signs of dominating the ball more and not being a impatient in the attacking buildup. That shows in some passages and it doesn't in others. And our offence I think now has a huge influence from RvN, who took over our offensive automation training in preseason. So you'd expect a different approach in this department too.

However, it's not necessarily going to be seen immediately.

I don't think that there is any tactical differences and I don't think that there is any new model.

 

[VP89]

I don't think that there is any tactical differences and I don't think that there is any new model.

Yes, you've made that clear.

 

[iato89]

The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.

3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.

Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.

The FA cup swayed some fickle fans! This is not about 3 games but coming from a horrible season! It is very obvious this wont end well!!

 

[iato89]

you've probably missed a few on the bingo card. They've branched out from 'Martinez is injured'.

Now thats ugarte missing ‍

 

[DJ_21]

if ETH needs his first choice players in every position to play a set style then somethings wrong. You coach more than just your starting 11. You should be able to play a set style with all your squad. Obviously it should help having the best players in but that can’t be an excuse as to why we aren’t playing well still.

 

[Irwin99]

Regarding our pressing I think that context is important. Our players have absolutely been inclined to press and for that reason we have been one of the team that creates the most turnovers in the league but the way we do it is reckless, it's a bit like a heavyweight that only throws haymakers, he is likely to have a high KO rate but he is also likely to get himself rocked by any decent boxer.

I believe we were last season as well but it just yields no reward in terms of goals and sometimes even in chances. There's something fundamentally wrong about the lack of threat we pose when we actually do win the ball high up the pitch. The players should not be this bad, even if none of them are 'elite' level forwards.

I wish journalists would confront him about the lack of goals in his time here. When he wants to, he can clearly set up a good defence as evidenced in his first season here and the cup final wins (the 6-3 and 7-0 hammerings took a lot of the shine of what was otherwise a very solid partnership of Martinez and Varane in his first season). The attack has always been underwhelming though.

 

[devilsadvoca8]

Game model? I'm more concerned about the INEOS Sack model. They need to revamp it real quickly. Imagine losing to Southampton and he's still in the job come the following Monday. I

 

[kaku06]

Pick your poison:

- 3 games
- No qualified replacement
- We've improved
- Unlucky losses
- Referee positioning vs Liverpool
- Individual mistakes
- Superior xG
- Ugarte not available
- Arteta struggled too

Add a new one. “New Game Model”

 

[soapythecat]

There are currently 240 members of the Caf who neither watch United or are supporters of opposition teams. Anyone who suggest we have either a style of play or are improving are pissed and don’t understand football.
Such an odd bunch.

 

[kaku06]

I can’t help but laugh at this latest excuse term “New Game Model”. Who came up with that shit?

 

[Garnacho Libre]

Yes, obviously. Without shadow of a doubt. Because it's impossible to get less out of them than Ten Hag is doing.

The whole point of having Wilcox and Ashworth there is so we sign players to build a squad that exists independently of the head coach. That sad transparent excuse people used to hide behind to advocate keeping failed managers on is consigned to history.

I get that. It's what Liverpool have so far been good at. In fairness to them, it looks like (early days) they can function without Klopp. Time will be a test of that when problems occur - players wanting to leave, signings Slot may want, contracts etc...

It appears these signings are influenced by Ten Hag therefore I really think INEOS did their very best to back him. I think maybe it's a question of time for all of the club.

The problem I see - whatever manager may come in - will he get the best out of the likes of Rashford? He's worked under quite a few managers now and has his up and down periods with all of them. There's a few players there that there's concerns about regardless of the style of play IMO.

Sancho and now Antony haven't worked out in our quest to sign a top Right Winger. But we'll try again with another player, and another after that if needed. It's just how things work in football. No one can guarantee the next manager will be a success but if the club feel the current manager isn't working out then they have to replace him.

And I imagine post ETH manager will probably have much less say in new signings and they'll have to work with the current squad plus club signings identified by Ashworth etc.

I agree with you. As of right now, they have backed Ten Hag with signings that is pretty much Ten Hag's style. I think all 5 signings are exactly what Ten Hag wanted. Going to be crazy if by the medium term it's not after fully clicking.

 

[SungSam7]

If the style isn't working in English football, and results of said style is the club and it's brand being dragged through the mud, why would you persist? It's not like we have Arene Wenger when he was delivering CL football every season. It's unambitious, but in that case I kind of understand why Arsenal stook with him for his style. It was delivering some level of results.

ETH isn't even on that level.

I'd totally agree, I want ETH out!

I'm not sure if the FA cup or the injuries saved him. But Boehly as crazy as he seems, pulled the plug fast on Tuchel. We need to be doing the same. I'm not even sure the signings he made will be decent, bar Martinez and one season from Casemiro, everyone of them have been a let down. Hojlund won't question him yet.

I'd be amazed if they keep past November, he's so infuriating to listen to, he's like a poor man's Mourinho when talking.

 

[GreatDane]

No. 2 seasons + 3 games. 3 games showing a continuation of the same old rubbish.

How daft must a person have to be to ignore the evidence of 2 whole seasons and give him a clean slate, in some misguided blind hope that he'll magically transform into a good manager.

Apparently very daft.

 

[GreatDane]

Pick your poison:

- 3 games
- No qualified replacement
- We've improved
- Unlucky losses
- Referee positioning vs Liverpool
- Individual mistakes
- Superior xG
- Ugarte not available
- Arteta struggled too

Just wait until Martínez is back, then you'll see...

 

[The Hilton]

Of course my brief summary of why various candidates would be better than Ten Hag isn’t enough for you - I could write paragraphs and paragraphs and you’d still find objections to each one. But that’s because your focus is a negative, fear-based case against hypothetical replacements, rather than a positive case for keeping Ten Hag.

Thankfully that’s completely irrelevant to the deep dive the Ineos team will have been doing on replacements since May. As I predicted many pages ago, you’re only asking for names so you can pick holes in any and every alternative because you’d rather stick with the failure that Ten Hag has proved to be. Fair enough, but focussing on possible future failings of hypothetical replacements over the actual, current failings of the guy who’s currently overseeing relegation form is bizarre. Actual failures are more damaging to our club that hypothetical failures. And that’s where we seem to differ.

You could find some similarity between every single candidate and every single failed ex Utd manager since Fergie, but I can more easily counter with the fact that Ten Hag has already lead us to a worse PL and CL performance than any of them. So again, that seems to me to be a fundamentally flawed argument in favour of keeping him. You could use that exact same justification to never ever change the manager, which is obviously an absurdity.

It’s been pointed out to you again and again that there is no formula or criteria that will determine success for new appointment. Failure is more likely than not for any of them, because success for Ud means the PL and CL, and that’s an incredibly hard level to get to. Someone can have an impeccable record and experience and CV and still fail. Someone could have a much more limited CV and succeed. Whoever is ultimately chosen, there will be enough potential positives about their candidacy to make them more attractive than keeping someone who we know for a fact is not cutting it.

As for attainability, it’s easy to propose hypothetical obstacles for every single possible candidate on the planet, but that’s just not a sound basis for concluding that not a single one is attainable. We don’t even know if any of the names suggested are on their list, and you have no more insight on them being unattainable than I do on them being attainable. Unless you’ve been reaching out to their agents to check, it’s nothing but baseless speculation on either side. And that is also not a sound argument for not replacing a failing manager.

When you look at the bigger picture, it’s hard to imagine that Ineos wouldn’t be able to lure a replacement, no matter what time of season it is. Big clubs finding new managers mid season is a perfectly normal and routine thing that happens in football and there’s no reason to think doing so will be peculiarly elusive only for Utd. That’s just something you seem to have pulled from thin air because you’d rather see Ten Hag sink another season first, at which point you seem to think all your hypothetical objections to possible replacements will magically disappear.

I think we've done this to death now, it's getting very circular and it's getting tiring having to constantly restate my position due to it being misrepresented and strawmanned.

As you say, our debate is irrelevant to the work the INEOS regime will be doing to plan for succession, and it sounds like we both have faith in them, just different expectations as to what their actions will be. Time will tell which of us, if either, is more on the money.

 

[SouthernRedDev]

No. 2 seasons + 3 games. 3 games showing a continuation of the same old rubbish.

How daft must a person have to be to ignore the evidence of 2 whole seasons and give him a clean slate, in some misguided blind hope that he'll magically transform into a good manager.

Perhaps he was baptised between seasons, hallelujah, Wash away your sins.. convenient.

 

[Borys]

Well I'll say this, Ten Hag's focus on the team pressing high is not reaping many rewards in terms of goals and as we've seen so far is detrimental to our defending.

Exactly, that's why it's the wrong tactic in the current circumstances. Under Ole our setup made sense, we didn't even play more counter attacking game than we did under ETH against top clubs, but we did play more conservative football against most opponents. Now the funny thing is we played out best football (and by quite some distance) when we played also a bit more conservative (Casemiro and Fred midfield).

 

[stevoc]

Exactly, that's why it's the wrong tactic in the current circumstances. Under Ole our setup made sense, we didn't even play more counter attacking game than we did under ETH against top clubs, but we did play more conservative football against most opponents. Now the funny thing is we played out best football (and by quite some distance) when we played also a bit more conservative (Casemiro and Fred midfield).

Which made sense with the players he had at the time, it was still mostly Ole's squad. So he basically played the same as Ole did but with the added benefit of Casemiro and Martinez. Our problems have occured when he tried to move away from that style and introduce his own. People think it didn't work last season because of personel and/or injures, which may well have been the case.

This season the squad is now virtually all his own signings and promotions and we should have less injuries. So if we're still playing shite over the next 10 or so games then he really has no excuses. By October/November we should have an idea if it's going to work out. I hope it does but I wouldn't put any money on it if I'm being honest.

 

[Suv666]

He got to go blud

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Exactly, that's why it's the wrong tactic in the current circumstances. Under Ole our setup made sense, we didn't even play more counter attacking game than we did under ETH against top clubs, but we did play more conservative football against most opponents. Now the funny thing is we played out best football (and by quite some distance) when we played also a bit more conservative (Casemiro and Fred midfield).

I don’t even think we were conservative under Ole, we just weren’t some high pressing super system and the defending felt a bit off the cuff. But it’s not like we sat in like Jose days and were trying to protect 1-0 leads all day.

 

[lex talionis]

Not really we press, the structure of our pressing makes no sense but it is executed.

Really? Rashford makes a half-effort and that's probably generous. Hojlund has decent straight line speed but isn't that quick shifting side to side. Garnacho doesn't seem to have his heart into pressing either.

 

[lex talionis]

It's actually 117 games of his tenure, but whatever.

What I believe that other poster was getting at is that we should ignore every one of the performances under ETH for the prior 114 matches and judge ETH only by the 3 matches in which we've looked rather shit and could only manage to scrap a 1-0 win over Fulham.

 

[Denis79]

He got to go blud

I can't take it anymore Suvvie!

 

[Garnacho Libre]

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for this but it fits into tactics.

Watching the Overlap episode that was out today. Carra and Neville are having it out again with difference of opinions with both talking sense. Wright made a good point and something we already know. When Onana has the ball, United are too slow to be in positions for Onana to pass it to a player where they can play out from the back to transition into attack. Then we have the ball and no options are on or a wrong pass is made and the other team gets themselves in better positions etc... For a start we aren't getting the best out of Onana. That might change after a while with the new defence so maybe improvement can happen there.

Neville is pretty much saying, how about keep it a little more simple. Carra is saying hoofing the ball up all the time to target man no longer works.

I agree with Neville in terms of maybe we are overcomplicating play. He accepted the game is a lot more technical but it got me thinking maybe United are being too technical. Under Ole, the football was simpler and we were attacking better but that led to problems against one too many teams playing that way. I understand where Carra is coming from.

Keane made a good point also. Too many passes are going just to the player rather than the player running onto the ball to make an attack happen.

What do you think, do you think United should just try play a little less technical by not overcomplicating tactics?

 

[VP89]

The overlap segment was good when they said the whole point about playing from the back is to pull the opposition toward you, make space behind them and have early passes into the midfield from defence. We ponder too much when playing out from the back, whereas Liverpool had multiple instances with Vvd and trent just carving into our backline.

 

[spwd]

I've been trying to think of a bigger fraud than this guy and I keep coming up short. Like, you obviously have many cases of managers failing to make the step up and quickly disappearing, or just straight up worse and mediocre managers out there but no one really expects anything of them. Take, I don't know, Frank de Boer, or Nuno Espirito Santo, for example, off the top of my head. Pochettino's myth lasted for a while, but he never really stuck around in one place for long because he inevitably got sacked, for better or worse. Potter practically vanished as well, although he is still getting paid by Chelsea. And you also have Southgate. But did anyone really like or believe in Southgate outside of any patriotic feelings one might have?

But I don't think I have seen a guy defraud so many people into thinking that he is this great mastermind, this impeccable tactician, that has The Plan™, and if you just give him enough money and enough time he will suddenly turn into Guardiola, despite so clearly not being different than those guys above and will eventually end the same way. Much closer to Nuno than anywhere close to Pep. And it's not just random people, but journalists, and apparently INEOS as well? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Or just not wanting to admit one is wrong? Indecision? Blind loyalty? It doesn't sound any different to a VC scam to me. One of those that you wonder how people fell for it in the first place, even smart people. But that can at least be explained with greed. Is his just a case of the right place at the right time?

My friends that support other clubs barely even banter anymore, they just keep asking me how he still has the job. Imagine if I start explaining how he is actually great and will have United challenging soon. I’d sound like a lunatic. Exactly like the people that invest into those VC scams and remain utterly convinced they are about to be millionaires if they believe hard enough and hold on, despite the entire thing being a complete and obvious scam to everyone else.

Same thing here. This manager is so obviously and clearly not good and no amount of support will change that. This team isn’t going to be utterly shit for three years and then suddenly become world class on the fourth, or fifth, or whatever year. His football has been exposed time and again. And what happens when 1-2 players get injured? Just fall apart completely again? He is all out of pathetic excuses. So, what’s the point of wasting any more resources? There’s the matter of replacement, but if INEOS are so professional and have a style in mind, then surely there’s someone out there that can do much better with this squad? Because unlike 2 years ago, I think the squad is quite good now. Not brilliant, certainly, but should be enough to challenge Top 4 comfortably. I'm certain a proper manager can do that, and could also use to prepare for next season better. So, just sack now and move on.

That's exactly how I feel. I just can't believe that he's been able to hoodwink so many into believing he's a genius when he quite clearly fecking isn't. I'm gobsmacked to be honest.
If he was a genius his master plan wouldn't come tumbling down when one player is out. Plus on this subject. We were told by many that we'd never let in another goal if Martinez was on the pitch? But then again we do have the other prat in goal...